http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8612825.stm
They were on their way to honour the anniversary of the Katyń murders (to which Russia is still on and off about admitting).
Wary as one can be of conspiracy theories, no one here thinks it was an accident. History doesn't really make it easy to believe that.
Personally I'm just waiting for more information. In any case, we have no President, no head of National Bank, no head of Institute of Rememberance, we lost quite a few Members of Parliament, religious dignitaries...
Freaking sci-fi film.
(reposted on b77. I don't have much to say but everyone who comes here and there is asleep, and it is my freaking president who died...)
Polish president is dead in plane crash.
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Hachimitsu
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132 people died on the plane, a lot of them high officials. First Lady was also there (and actually I can't help but feel glad she died with her husband, that would have been a terrible pain to bear for her). The plane was smashed to bits.
I'm not...devastated, or anything like that, I wasn't a fan of our president nor do I think our government officials are particularly good, but it's a tragedy, people have died, and they were very important people. I'm certainly shocked. I wonder how that is going to affect us.
I'm not...devastated, or anything like that, I wasn't a fan of our president nor do I think our government officials are particularly good, but it's a tragedy, people have died, and they were very important people. I'm certainly shocked. I wonder how that is going to affect us.
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Hachimitsu
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Voronwë the Faithful
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I was shocked when I heard this. In fact, I can't remember the last time I heard any news that shocking. My sympathies to the Polish people. The fact that they were on the way to commemmorate the Katyń murders just makes it all the more shocking. For those who don't know, 70 years ago 1000s of Polish POWs (mostly officers) were massacred by the Soviet NKVD (the precursor to the KGB). So the fact that this happened in Russia makes it even more horrible. Adding to the irony, Russian Prime Minister Putin has indicated that he is going to directly lead the investigation. Putin, of course, is a former KGB officer.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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BrianIsSmilingAtYou
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This is a great tragedy, Rodia, and you and all the people of Poland have my sympathies.
My mother's side of the family is all from Poland, and there is a large Polish community in the New York Metro area where I grew up, as well as in other places in the U.S., such as Chicago. I am sure there are many who are grieving with you.
My mother's side of the family is all from Poland, and there is a large Polish community in the New York Metro area where I grew up, as well as in other places in the U.S., such as Chicago. I am sure there are many who are grieving with you.
All of my nieces and nephews at my godson/nephew Nicholas's Medical School graduation. Now a neurosurgical resident at University of Arizona, Tucson.
Wikipedia has a good article on the Katyń massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
Some of the relatives of people murdered in Katyń were on that plane, too. The secretary of the organisation which brings together victims of deportations to Siberia was as well, and so was Ryszard Kaczorowski, our last president in exile before the free elections of 1990. Lots and lots of worthy people.
Stupidly, almost all of our military leaders were on that plane. We're really a mess here, so many Members of Parliament dead, the President is dead, the heads of the army, navy and air force are dead, it's complete sci-fi. Stuff like that just doesn't happen!
Some of the relatives of people murdered in Katyń were on that plane, too. The secretary of the organisation which brings together victims of deportations to Siberia was as well, and so was Ryszard Kaczorowski, our last president in exile before the free elections of 1990. Lots and lots of worthy people.
Stupidly, almost all of our military leaders were on that plane. We're really a mess here, so many Members of Parliament dead, the President is dead, the heads of the army, navy and air force are dead, it's complete sci-fi. Stuff like that just doesn't happen!
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Hachimitsu
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I am reading up and even the head of the central bank!
I will say here I know hardly anything about the recent history of Poland. But know just what I know about the recent stuff posted here, does this accident seem a little... I don't know, kinda fishy?
Also, why were they flying in such an old plane? (It was overhauled) So many important people you'd think they would use a younger aircraft.[/i]
I will say here I know hardly anything about the recent history of Poland. But know just what I know about the recent stuff posted here, does this accident seem a little... I don't know, kinda fishy?
Also, why were they flying in such an old plane? (It was overhauled) So many important people you'd think they would use a younger aircraft.[/i]
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Primula Baggins
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This really is shocking, a terrible blow. I hope the Polish government can make as smooth a transition as possible.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
It does seem fishy. Anything to do with Russia and us will always seem fishy, it's impossible for it to be otherwise.
There were interviews with the people responsible for the plane and they said that planes are generally not replaced very often, that it was perfectly safe. Of course they would say that but I don't know much about planes so I can't say whether they're right or wrong.
There were interviews with the people responsible for the plane and they said that planes are generally not replaced very often, that it was perfectly safe. Of course they would say that but I don't know much about planes so I can't say whether they're right or wrong.
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Yeah that was something to wake up to.
The way it's being reported in the US, the local air traffic control advised the plane to Minsk or Moscow due to fog. But the pilots have discretion and they decided to stay the course and that was a bad idea. No indications of foul play, Putin is taking personal command of the investigations, etc. But it still looks really really bad.
The way it's being reported in the US, the local air traffic control advised the plane to Minsk or Moscow due to fog. But the pilots have discretion and they decided to stay the course and that was a bad idea. No indications of foul play, Putin is taking personal command of the investigations, etc. But it still looks really really bad.
When you can do nothing what can you do?
It'll be a while before we know more. It could have been the plane, the pilots, the weather, anything.
They just found the president's body, so the worst is as official as it can be.
I just checked the list of people- I hadn't even noticed one of my parents' close friends and neighbours was on that plane. Another victim is the wife of the surgeon who did my dad's bypass surgery, also a friend. She worked in the Senate. Dad also knew the president back from their Solidarity days- I'm sure he knew more than one person on that plane.
I got a call from my Russian friend today, he asked, is there a curse over your poor country?
April is in general an emotional month for Poland- Easter usually falls around this time and we are all mostly Catholic, if not by religion then by tradition at least. JP2 died on April 2nd, and his death is remembered strongly every year. The Katyń massacres, of course, are a heavy anniversary, and now this.
They just found the president's body, so the worst is as official as it can be.
I just checked the list of people- I hadn't even noticed one of my parents' close friends and neighbours was on that plane. Another victim is the wife of the surgeon who did my dad's bypass surgery, also a friend. She worked in the Senate. Dad also knew the president back from their Solidarity days- I'm sure he knew more than one person on that plane.
I got a call from my Russian friend today, he asked, is there a curse over your poor country?
April is in general an emotional month for Poland- Easter usually falls around this time and we are all mostly Catholic, if not by religion then by tradition at least. JP2 died on April 2nd, and his death is remembered strongly every year. The Katyń massacres, of course, are a heavy anniversary, and now this.
It's a tragedy, a terrible loss. I know the feeling of the entire community going numb with shock, when it just seems to multiply each person's grief. My condolences to your family, Rodia, for the loss of your friends.
As for causes.... I wouldn't put anything past Russia, frankly. But what would they have to gain? People prefer to think that things happen for a reason or at least by design, but really sometimes it's really just blind chance hitting. I don't know if we can ever find out for sure, but I would bet on it being an accident.
As for causes.... I wouldn't put anything past Russia, frankly. But what would they have to gain? People prefer to think that things happen for a reason or at least by design, but really sometimes it's really just blind chance hitting. I don't know if we can ever find out for sure, but I would bet on it being an accident.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Quite shocking, and personal connections make it even more difficult...
I didn't know anything about the Katyn massacre till I saw a monument to the Katyn 1939 massacre two blocks from my apartment. I read up on it all later. A part I've always thought was poignant - the man's mouth is tied with a cloth.
I didn't know anything about the Katyn massacre till I saw a monument to the Katyn 1939 massacre two blocks from my apartment. I read up on it all later. A part I've always thought was poignant - the man's mouth is tied with a cloth.
'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude
Rodia - I posted already on B77, but just wanted to add my condolensces again here...it is just...shocking and incredibly sad for you and your country. But your people are strong, and often tragedies like this will enable differences to be put aside, as people come together, channelling their grief and energy to better use.
My thoughts are with you and your nation tonight...
My thoughts are with you and your nation tonight...
There is magic in long-distance friendships. They let you relate to other human beings in a way that goes beyond being physically together and is often more profound.
~Diana Cortes
~Diana Cortes
Thank you. I'm shocked- I don't feel like I'm grieving. I'm shocked that they were so many, so important, and perished so fast.
From what I see on the news the Russians are being extremely helpful and sensitive, which is wonderful. I want to believe it was an accident. That makes more sense than anything else- it's just hard not to be paranoid given our history.
I just read that the president's twin brother identified the bodies, and I feel so sorry for the man, that must be unbearable.
Mahima, I never saw that monument, how moving...and yes, the cloth is very poignant. It was kept a secret for so long, denied for so many years afterwards- and you know, these officers were people who fought for their country. Only they wanted real freedom, and not for another country to invade in guise of salvation, and that's why they were killed. They didn't even know they were being taken away to be shot in the head, one by one.
For anyone interested in the subject, I recommend Wajda's recent film, titled simply 'Katyń' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katy%C5%84_%28film%29
It's got good English subtitles, Chris saw it with me in the cinema and he didn't have any trouble following. I did give him a bit of background first but the movie is really good, and extremely moving.
From what I see on the news the Russians are being extremely helpful and sensitive, which is wonderful. I want to believe it was an accident. That makes more sense than anything else- it's just hard not to be paranoid given our history.
I just read that the president's twin brother identified the bodies, and I feel so sorry for the man, that must be unbearable.
Mahima, I never saw that monument, how moving...and yes, the cloth is very poignant. It was kept a secret for so long, denied for so many years afterwards- and you know, these officers were people who fought for their country. Only they wanted real freedom, and not for another country to invade in guise of salvation, and that's why they were killed. They didn't even know they were being taken away to be shot in the head, one by one.
For anyone interested in the subject, I recommend Wajda's recent film, titled simply 'Katyń' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katy%C5%84_%28film%29
It's got good English subtitles, Chris saw it with me in the cinema and he didn't have any trouble following. I did give him a bit of background first but the movie is really good, and extremely moving.