Health Care Reform

[Primula Baggins]

Hal, that's way over the top.

Saying that Democrats want to cripple the country and enslave the populace?

For God's sake, listen to yourself. Does this sound normal to you?




Edited by Prim to remove personal attack

[vison]

Hal, that's way over the top.

Saying that Democrats want to cripple the country and enslave the populace?

For God's sake, listen to yourself. Does this sound normal to you? What have you been smoking—or (I guess it makes more sense to ask) who have you been listening to, and what have they been smoking?

Ditto.

[Ellienor]

This is the kind of thinking that allows people who want to pull down the popularly elected government of the United States to style themselves as "patriots".....disgusting.

[JewelSong]

You know, someone once said to me that "Liberals hate this country."

My father was a World War II Veteran. He would stand proudly for the Pledge of Allegiance. He knew all four verses to the Star Spangled Banner. Every July 4, he would stand and read the Declaration of Independence out loud from the facsimile printed in the New York Times. He was an American who deeply loved his country and the constitution.

He was also a registered Liberal. He voted Democrat his entire life.

I find Hal's accusations about what the Democrats "want to do" deeply offensive and an insult to my father.

[halplm]

This has nothing to do with your father. It has to do with the leadership of the democratic party in power right now.

And yes, they do want to cripple the country, as they think our success and freedoms is what makes us hated around the world, and that it is killing the planet, etc. etc.

And yes, they do want to enslave the populace. What do you think a welfare state is? And what do you think government healthcare is but furthering the welfare state?

The democrats want people to be dependent on the government, because if you're dependent on the government, you'll vote for the party that provides the most for you, and for some reason, people believe that's the democrats.

The simplest way to see the truth of it is to just look at the inner cities and blue states, where the dems have been in power for a long time... How are they doing with their government control of everything?

[Inanna]

You're touching on the million dollar question. I've seen a number of hypotheses for why US healthcare spending is so out of proportion and really, I think it's partly doctors afraid of being sued for malpractice so they over-treat and patients expecting to be over-treated

River, an in-depth study by McKinsey also found the same thing. The number being touted by the white house is that only 5% of the costs are due to malpractice suits. But those are from actual suits. The threat of suits raises the costs much higher (I've forgotten the exact number, it was greater than 10%). This problem really should be fixed. I don't know if the current bill does do that.

Second, we've been discussing a lot about insurance companies not achieving companies of scale, and hence higher insurance costs. In the past we also discussed why there aren't national health insurance firms (like auto insurance). Well, apparently, insurance firms can be national, and spread the risks. But they don't, because each small insurance state firm loves its little kingdom. But 20 leukemia patients can shatter the potential profits of north NJ insurance company, which leads to increasing premiums, and all the pre-existing condition stuff.

[yovargas]

I'd personally like to see this kind of extreme rhetoric kicked out of this forum.

[halplm]

I'd personally like to see this kind of extreme rhetoric kicked out of this forum.

heaven forbid you actually put forth an argument against it, rather than label and dismiss it.

[Ellienor]

California:

Yet relative to other places, the state has historically been a pretty good bargain, with a low-cost, enviable higher education system, subsidized energy and an abundance of services for those down on their luck.

»But three decades of staggering population growth combined with three high-impact recessions, budgeting by ballot box, federal mandates, an unusual tax structure and the rising cost of social services have finally produced disastrous results, and the ramifications are reaching across every aspect of life in this state.

I grew up in California, Hal, and attended the University of California. I got a great education. I worked in the biotechnology industry. California was a great state. In my opinion it got "undone" by Proposition 13.

our success and freedoms is what makes us hated around the world, and that it is killing the planet, etc. etc.

Our huge consumption of resources relative to our number of people and our Iraqi war where we arrogantly decided to "regime change" is what makes us hated. It is un-Christian to hog so many resources to ourselves. And you sure don't like it that Al Qaida is dedicated to toppling our government......but it's ok for us to topple others.

And yes, they do want to enslave the populace. What do you think a welfare state is? And what do you think government healthcare is but furthering the welfare state?

The democrats want people to be dependent on the government, because if you're dependent on the government, you'll vote for the party that provides the most for you, and for some reason, people believe that's the democrats.

No, actually, I am an American and I want to make sure that all my fellow Americans have decent health care. I don't play "us" v. "them". We are all Americans.



[/quote]

[vison]

I'd personally like to see this kind of extreme rhetoric kicked out of this forum.

I agree. 100%.

[halplm]

Ellie, I don't quite know how to respond... as you're just proving my point...

[River]

I'd personally like to see this kind of extreme rhetoric kicked out of this forum.

Thirded.

[yovargas]

I'd personally like to see this kind of extreme rhetoric kicked out of this forum.

heaven forbid you actually put forth an argument against it, rather than label and dismiss it.

Once your opponents go from "incorrect" to "evil", there is no longer any purpose in a discussion.

[halplm]

I'd personally like to see this kind of extreme rhetoric kicked out of this forum.

heaven forbid you actually put forth an argument against it, rather than label and dismiss it.

Once your opponents go from "incorrect" to "evil", there is no longer any purpose in a discussion.

I have not called anyone evil... I don't think... If you think what the democrats are doing is evil, well, that's your opinion. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth, though.

It seems everyone would prefer to "take offense" and try to eliminate or ignore uncomfortable truths, rather than actually confront the reality of the situation.

[N.E. Brigand]

Is it extreme rhetoric if you actually believe it to be true?

I'm absolutely astounded by what's going on in Washington over this...
Trying to pass the bill without a vote.

I am shocked! shocked! and astounded! that the Democrats would use the same legislative method Republicans have used in the past.
No truly, I am a little disappointed that the bill will probably be passed by a majority vote on a rule rather than on the bill itself.

So let me get this straight: you're saying that because the Republicans have done something similar (and make no mistake, it is not the same), that makes it OK?
LOL! That is about the worst argument possible you can make. Rather, you should be outraged it was done in the past, and further outraged it is being done now, in a way that will cripple this country for all time.

I'm not outraged that the same exact procedure has been used 36 times before by the Republicans and 48 times before by the Democrats. Apparently you should have been; doubtless you can link to past examples of your outrage at its use.

[N.E. Brigand]

This chart is interesting, if also a little baffling: health care would cost a lot less now if only Nixon's plan had been adopted 35 years ago.

Edit: link fixed.

[Ellienor]

OK...according to Hal, I have "proved his point" which includes that I want to "cripple the country." I want to "enslave the populace." I want people to be "dependent on the government."

I am fed up with Hal's rhetoric.

N.E. Brigand, your link appears to be dead. I'd like to look at it!

[Frelga]

River, an in-depth study by McKinsey also found the same thing. The number being touted by the white house is that only 5% of the costs are due to malpractice suits. But those are from actual suits. The threat of suits raises the costs much higher (I've forgotten the exact number, it was greater than 10%). This problem really should be fixed. I don't know if the current bill does do that.

I think a lot of it is a vicious cycle. The threat of malpractice raises costs, but why IS it that the Americans are so likely to sue? Part of it, of course, is culture, greed, whatever. But also it is because there is no social safety net for these things.

If a doctor makes a mistake, which results in the patient needing longer, more expensive treatment, now the patient is on the hook for all that money. Not only medical costs, but time out of work, transportation, time out of work for whoever is taking care of the sick person. It is all coming out of patent's pocket, and is it really so unfair that the person who made the mistake should be responsible for fixing it?

[River]

N.E. Brigand's link: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-k ... se_of.html

I did that because it really is an interesting result. You don't even have to turn the clock back to Nixon - if Carter's or Clinton's plans had gone through we'd also be in better shape.

[yovargas]

I have not called anyone evil... I don't think... If you think what the democrats are doing is evil, well, that's your opinion. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth, though.

You're right, you only said that dems are trying to destroy and enslave. I merely assumed you would think such things are evil. Apologies.

Is it extreme rhetoric if you actually believe it to be true?

Of course. I would not, for example, be allowed to say racially derogatory remarks on this board regardless of whether I thought I was factually correct.