Thoughts about Lasto from a longtime poster

[Erunáme]

I also don't want people to become too self-conscious to post.

Too late.

[Primula Baggins]

I'm sorry to hear that, Eru.

[TheEllipticalDisillusion]

Holby, *points to self*

This may be way self-centered, but I think I have some of the thickest skin of anyone I've ever met.

I read through these pages and I still don't understand the problem. Posts against Obama are fine, but, and this is just me, if the poster is only going to post nonsense like William Ayers and not go after Obama's policy issues, then what are we going to talk about? It may be that a majority of people don't see the minority's opinion as important--with regards to certain issues (my example above). I'm sure that is completely against the purpose of this Hall. Debate is a murky subject. What I consider to be paramount to the topic may be smoke and mirrors to someone else, but then how does a forum walk that knife edge? You don't want to the forum to dismiss on position because of how you view it, but then what stops all sorts of fringe or non-issue viewpoints from popping up?

I only pose more questions, though.

[Crucifer]

Get a thicker skin.

That's something that bugs me. Like when people say "get over it". If people are being hypersensetive, that's a different matter, but I don't think anyone's been THAT here, yet. (At least, not the vast majority of posters)

If person A says something to which person B takes offence, then person A must take into account the fact that person B is not person A and cannot know how (s)he will react to comment X! As someone else said (Prim?), one man's witty satire is another man's vicious attack. Well, that pretty much applies across the board. "Get a thicker skin" is not a solution to anything.

[Erunáme]

I also don't want people to become too self-conscious to post.

I'll elaborate some.

How could we not be now? We're told there's too much of the liberal viewpoint here that conservatives don't want to post. Well that pretty much does it right there doesn't it? There's too much agreeing going on and not enough diversity. Well gee, I agree with a lot of the posts here so I better not post. Really the whole liberal:conservative ratio being a problem is enough to make anyone self conscious to post.

I think the main problem is people are taking disagreement to equal not being welcome.

Another problem is the tone in which two conservative posters have posted with. That was certainly unwelcome and it seems if the conservative posters here have gotten that message mixed up with conservative opinions not being welcome.

I think Wampus, Ellienor and Frelga have expressed my thoughts in a more coherent manner.

Though one more point I'd like to mention is that sometimes it appears to me the modding has been too heavy on a liberal and too easy on a conservative in response to conservative complaints. We see a certain poster's posts use disrespectful blanket statements and words like 'hate' and 'lie'. A liberal calls said poster out but is chided for doing so and said poster seemingly gets away clean.

.
.

It just doesn't seem worth it to post here and after doing so I wonder why I did it because it seems no matter what, someone's going to take issue with anything. The place seems strewn with eggshells.

And even this post is made self consciously.

[Primula Baggins]

Eru, did you finish reading the post of mine that you quoted from?

I said that anyone who came away from this thread feeling worried about their own posting is not going to be part of the problem. If you are capable of worrying about upsetting other people, you already know how to post here. (Which of course you do.)

No, the modding has not been perfect. We've been periodically understaffed when people have been away. Sometimes no one is here; sometimes the person here is tired, or upset about something else, and is unwilling to take on more conflict.

When you're trying to address a problem on a messageboard, you risk upsetting people who aren't doing anything wrong; they feel lectured, maybe hectored, unfairly. But the alternative is to ignore a problem that has been brought to our attention by other people whose feelings also matter. So, we talk about it. If you've felt aimed at, Eru, please don't. The problem we're talking about is one of perception, and plenty of people here have played no part in it at all as far as I can tell.

[Erunáme]

I said that anyone who came away from this thread feeling worried about their own posting is not going to be part of the problem.

Ah, that's another thing I wanted to address but omitted. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you have people like Teremia, Wampus, and Frelga who feel self conscious about their posts. How on earth is that right?

The problem we're talking about is one of perception

Is there any possibility that said perception may not be entirely correct? I know it's been said many, many times from many different people that they want to here more from conservative and centrist views and have specifically sought out opinions from the likes of Faramond, Griffon, yovargas and Anthriel.

[halplm]

Go ahead and blame me, Eru, you know you want to. I'm the only one you dislike left, after sol was banned.

[Erunáme]

See you try to be polite and respectful when expressing your opinions but in the end still get burned and accused falsely.

[yovargas]

*waits to see how long it takes for that to get edited*

Not very long - VtF

x-post with Eru

[Primula Baggins]

I said that anyone who came away from this thread feeling worried about their own posting is not going to be part of the problem.

Ah, that's another thing I wanted to address but omitted. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you have people like Teremia, Wampus, and Frelga who feel self conscious about their posts. How on earth is that right?

Is there something I'm not making clear? Those are other people who also should not be worried about this issue, in addition to you.

The problem we're talking about is one of perception

Is there any possibility that said perception may not be entirely correct? I know it's been said many, many times from many different people that they want to here more from conservative and centrist views and have specifically sought out opinions from the likes of Faramond, Griffon, yovargas and Anthriel.

The most dangerous ground on messageboards, I think, is where you're trying to tell people that they "should not" feel the way they feel, that there's no real reason for them to feel that way and so they should just stop. Which I just did a paragraph ago, of course.

But a lot of us have had the experience on various messageboards elsewhere of perceiving a problem that no one in "management" cared about or was willing to address. That way lies eventual catastrophe. We didn't want to go that way.

Hal, please stop needling people.

[Erunáme]

Is there something I'm not making clear? Those are other people who also should not be worried about this issue, in addition to you.

The most dangerous ground on messageboards, I think, is where you're trying to tell people that they "should not" feel the way they feel, that there's no real reason for them to feel that way and so they should just stop. Which I just did a paragraph ago, of course.

Um, it kind of seems to me you just contradicted yourself. )or is that what you meant by the "I just did a paragraph ago") Quite a few liberals here are self conscious of their posts. You can say they shouldn't, but they are because it's been said many times the liberal viewpoint is too strong here. Maybe those feelings of self consciousness are incorrect but they are there. I guess that's how the conservatives are feeling. Maybe the feeling of being unwelcome isn't entirely correct, but it's still there.

I don't see how this problem can be solved. It seems to me that the vast majority of liberal posters have done their best to be insightful and respectful, but have still been told off as a group. They've even said they wish the conservative viewpoint was more present. But the conservative posters still feel uncomfortable...there are just too many liberal posters and they overwhelm the conservatives. Any solution involves someone's opinions being stiffled.

I'll stop now as to not belabour any points.

edited to fix quotes

[TheEllipticalDisillusion]

I think Holby's suggestion of getting a thicker skin is easier than trying to make two overly sensitive groups happy.

[Primula Baggins]

I was actually pointing out my self-contradiction.

I don't think we are going to solve this; I didn't expect us to. But at least we've been talking about it.

Edit: Speaking as a thin-skinned person myself, I've observed that the thick-skinned are usually the first to suggest that as the solution for our sensitivities. I think it's a swell idea.

I've always wanted to be four inches taller, too.

[Holbytla]

I think Holby's suggestion of getting a thicker skin is easier than trying to make two overly sensitive groups happy.

Whoa there fella. Not one time did I suggest anyone should get thicker skin. Well not in this thread anyway. I am sorry if I have given that impression, but that isn't true at all.

Though I don't see myself as a mega liberal, I am in no way a conservative. Yet it was me who has spoken the loudest about the bias in the campaign threads. This issue has far less to do with choice of politics than it does with posting styles. In fact there were a number of conservatives who posted in the same manner as did the liberals.

It isn't about viewpoint. It isn't about squelching opinion. It is a lack of discussing things in a way that leaves room for actual discussion.

Ellie and I have been butting heads in another thread, along with SF. There has been some jabs here and there and some disagreement, but the discussion has been productive imo. Ellie and SF may disagree with that, but good thoughts and ideas were presented on both sides I think.

That type of thing had been stifled here for a bit. There was too much of a knee jerk reaction to defend a candidate and attack another. There was too much one sided posting on issues. It seemed as if any contrary view was raised it was stampeded on by the masses.

That is coming from someone who is far more liberal than conservative. The thread screamed for some objectivity where none was apparent.

Others may have different issues than I did, but I can't speak for them. Yet I don't think anyone ever suggested you shouldn't post your opinion as long as it is done in an intelligent way and promotes actual discussion.

[TheEllipticalDisillusion]

I apologize for misrepresenting you, Holby. It is my suggestion then.

[Teremia]

Well, all I can say is I'm in line for my upcoming Layers-of-Skin Transplant -- maybe one layer donated by Holby, one by TED?

I'm really excited about my future ability to roll with the punches without unsightly bruising!!

Cross your fingers that the graft takes and the anti-rejection sugar pills do their job.



And I got into this line first, so no shoving, y'all!

[Frelga]

Well, where I am concerned, I have a pretty thick skin myself. Just so you know, I'm not mad at anybody, or sad, or bad, or any other things ending in *ad.

I really don't think people who ended up in a minority will be happy with the political discussion here no matter how hard the rest of us tries. Perhaps the solution is to post more in other areas, so we can remember why we all like each other so much. We do, don't we?

[baby tuckoo]

Holby, *points to self*

This may be way self-centered, but I think I have some of the thickest skin of anyone I've ever met.

The humble baby tuckoo, though tender to the touch and sensitive in all ways other than political, environmental, and . . . um . . . pseudoscientific, has skin so thick that it could survive Flogging Molly, whom he had the pleasure to see last night here in Sacramento. I would have loved to have Holby and the Elliptical One along simply to abuse them musically and personally so to test their epiduralisness.

What a great show!!! Especially from the mosh pit, where my pink jeunnesse was unrespected, as I'd hoped, and we all (except Misha, who chose to stand off to the side) hurled ourselves against one another in the spirit of greatest recamarade.

The sound was clean and thunderous, the folk were pleantiful, drunk, high, and friendly. My bruises will heal; nothing above the shoulders. The energy in the pit is fantastic. I think the yoots like it that there's an old guy in there hammmerin widdem. Flogging Molly has a flautist/pipista, and another who plays accordian . . . very Poguish, except that the singer is completely engaged and competent on stage.


What a beautiful night out of doors in Sacramento, though I'm sorry I made Misha afraid for my well being. Indeed, they were big guys and rowdy gals, all wound up to pysycho-celtic rock and sock, but a friendlier group one will never meet.

A great time. I wish you'd all been there.




What's this thread about? Did VtF censor someone? I'm sure they deserved it.

Me, I have to teach tomorrow.

[Jnyusa]

Yo, bt.

The last time I was in a Radisson Hotel was for a bas-mitzvah party.

Seems an odd venue for moshing. Was it catered or merely tolerated?