The 2008 Presidential Campaign (was Obama Phenomenon 2)

[Jnyusa]

[removed]

[Primula Baggins]

Jn, if you got that from my post about Maliki's statements, I'm sorry. I do think this is an issue we have discussed in this thread a great deal and that this development is important. I did not intend to do any sneering.

[Jnyusa]

[removed]

[solicitr]

Point taken, Jny.

Prim, be aware that Der Spiegel is a very left-wing and anti-American publication, famous for its 'US troops out of Germany' stance in the 70s and 80s. And do please re-read Maliki's comment further down: Maliki confirms that American withdrawal represents the fruits of victory, a victory made possible by the strategy McCain supported even before the White House did, and which Obama consistently opposed.

"As the Iraqis stand up, we can stand down." Remember that?

Polls also have a problem, in that they reflect answers to very specific questions which often disguise nuance. For example, I remember a story (on NPR?) reporting, unsurprisingly, that a majority of Iraqis favored a US withdrawal. But the reporter (Anne Garrels?) also broadcast a brief interview with one of the poll respondents: "Yes," he said, "of course I want the Americans to leave. Nobody wants their country occupied. But" he went on, "first the Americans must defeat the terrorists and fix everything."

[ArathornJax]

nevermind

[solicitr]

McCain should repudiate [Bud Day's] comment in the strongest possible terms.

Why?????

EDIT: You've put yourself in the unenviable position of echoing a Hamas front group, Vor:

Corey Saylor, the national legislative director for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, told CNN Friday McCain should directly repudiate the remarks.

"CAIR would like to see Senator McCain come out and make a clear statement repudiating these remarks"

[superwizard]

EDIT: You've put yourself in the unenviable position of echoing a Hamas front group, Vor:

I will not get into this argument right now but I just have to say that I completely and utterly disagree with your statement that CAIR is a 'Hamas front group'. This isn't the thread for this debate but I just needed to mention this as a side note.

[Primula Baggins]

I won't try to contribute any more to this thread. See you all in October.

[Faramond]

I'm not going to go back and see what has been written about Maliki's statement here at the moment. If I did I would probably get involved in some of the one-upmanship Jn is asking be stopped.

I've seen the initial report and the subsequent report where Maliki says he was mistranslated, or something. My feeling is that a withdrawal is something that is coming soon, and probably should come soon, though I can't say for sure. I would like to see the US get out of Iraq. Really, I would. But I also would not like it left a horrible mess.

Obama's plan has always been some variation of the 16 month withdrawal. This was true even before it became apparent ( to some, including those in Obama's camp that altered his website ) that the surge is working. Obama's position is not based on recent events in Iraq, but has always been based on the premise that the US should withdraw as quickly as possible without putting the troops in danger.

The fact is McCain supported the surge and Obama didn't. McCain said it would "work" and Obama said it wouldn't, at various times. This may not bother some people, but it does bother me about Obama. I think this is a point in McCain's favor. I know others interpret these things differently.

I was prepared to concede that this weekend was turning into a very good weekend for Obama, what with McCain's gaffes and Maliki endorsing Obama's position, but that the underlying reality of whose Iraq policy had actually worked and produced a situation where the US could contemplate a "successful" withdrawal still supported McCain. Now that these conflicting reports of what Maliki really meant are coming in I don't know what to think about who wins the weekend in the press. I don't think it matters too much, in the end. The election is won on the economy, most likely. Upper hand Obama there.

[vison]

Incidentally, a good benchmark of the incredible anti-war bias of MSM Iraq reporting was shown by its lasting effect: yesterdays poll that showed Americans, by a narrow plurality 45-42%, still believe the war in Iraq "cannot be won." My, the press have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams! Myself, I am absolutely certain the Giants have no chance against the Patriots in last February's Super Bowl.

solictr, what would you say if the numbers were reversed? Do you utterly discard any idea that the MSM are reporting reality, rather than creating it?

As far as I can see, if the truth is unpleasant, the truth-teller is biased.

How convenient.

[vison]

In fact, the US could have pulled out any time, merely by declaring "victory". It really doesn't matter when, it never really did. So it gets said now instead of a year ago or a decade from now.

The aim of the Iraq invasion was to try to put a US-friendly "democracy" in place. That aim was missed - as will be apparent once the US is gone - if that day ever really arrives.

I have my doubts. It would have been much, much easier to invade Iran from Iraq. Now? Who can say? I sincerely hope Mr. Obama is smarter than his predecessor.

[solicitr]

AJ: I agree that the Iraqis can't simply expect us to 'fix' everything for them, even though we certainly must provide funding and expertise.

But "without the corruption"?? Is there any nation in the middle-east, indeed anywhere outside the First World, where corruption isn't an endemic problem? Heck, even here we have Duke Cunningham and William Jefferson and Charlie Rangell.

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SW: CAIR is just a civil-rights advocacy group? I beg to differ.

According to Steven Pomerantz, former FBI assistant director and chief of the FBI's Counter-Terrorism Section, “CAIR, its leaders, and its activities effectively give aid to international terrorist groups.” And “CAIR is but one of a new generation of groups in the United States that hide under a veneer of ‘civil rights’ or ‘academic’ status but in fact are tethered to a platform that supports terrorism.”

"Their offices have been a turnstile for terrorists and their supporters," according to one FBI veteran familiar with recent and ongoing cases involving CAIR officials.

Senator Charles Schumer (D-NY): “We know [CAIR] has ties to terrorism and intimate links with Hamas.”

Senator Richard Durbin (D-IL): CAIR is “unusual in its extreme rhetoric and its associations with groups that are suspect.”

CAIR is a spinoff of the (convicted) Hamas front group Islamic Association for Palestine, founded by Hamas official and designated terrorist Mousa Abu Marzook (also a co-founder of the Holy Land Foundation) and convicted Palestinian Islamic Jihad fundraiser Sami al-Arian. Deported to Jordan in 1997, Marzook is presently fighting extradition from Syria back to the US to face terrorism charges; al-Arian is in Federal prison.


CAIR co-founder and director emeritus Omar Ahmad: former President of the Islamic Association for Palestine. Ahmad is a member of the Muslim Brotherhood's "Palestine Committee" in the US, Hamas of course being the MB's Palestine branch. Quote: "Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth." Also, "Suicide bombers kill themselves for Islam and so are not terrorists."

CAIR co-founder Nihad Awad: the former Public Relations Director of the Islamic Association for Palestine. Also a member of the MB "Palestine Committee." According to FBI surveillance tapes Awad has had meetings with multiple Hamas officials discussing US 'charitable' fronts for Hamas fundraising, as well as ways to sabotage the Oslo peace accords.

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In September of 2001, just following the 9/11 attacks, CAIR placed on its website, under a picture of the World Trade Center in flames, a plea for donations. It read, “Donate to the NY/DC Emergency Relief Fund.” Yet, when people clicked on the link, it did not take them to any NY/DC Emergency Relief Fund, but rather to the website of the Hamas-front Holy Land Foundation. Later that month CAIR added a new link to its site, soliciting persons to “Donate through the Global Relief Foundation:” the GRF being a (now-convicted) fundraiser for Al-Qaeda and related groups.

CAIR was named an unindicted co-conspirator in the Holy Land Foundation prosecution.

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Fourteen CAIR officials have been indicted, convicted, and/or deported for terrorism-related activities. These include:

CAIR director Abdurahman Alamoudi, currently serving 23 years in federal prison for plotting terrorism. Alamoudi has declared that bin Laden hadn't killed enough Americans, and was one of al-Qaeda's top fund-raisers in America.

CAIR communications specialist and civil-rights coordinator Randall "Ismail" Royer, currently serving 20 years in Federal prison in connection with the Virginia Jihad Network, which he led while employed by CAIR at its Washington headquarters.

Ghassan and Bayan Elashi, founders of the Texas chapter of CAIR, convicted of money-laundering and providing funds to Hamas. Ghassan Elashi, former Chairman of the Holy Land Foundation, had previously been convicted of selling sensitive technology to Syria and Libya.

CAIR Director of Community Affairs Bassam Khafagi, convicted of bank and visa fraud based on his leadership role in the Islamic Assembly of North America; served 10 months in prison and was deported.

New Jersey CAIR chapter board member Soliman Biheiri, convicted of lyng to the FBI about his connections to Marzook. Served 13 months and was deported.




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Multiple CAIR officials, additionally, have substantiated terror connections, including:

CAIR founding director Rafeeq Jaber, long-time president of the Islamic Association for Palestine.

CAIR fundraiser Rabih Hadda, co-founder and former Executive Director of the Global Relief Foundation.

CAIR director Siraj Wahhaj, former close associate of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, and an unindicted co-conspirator in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. Quote: "If only Muslims were more clever politically, they could take over the United States and replace its constitutional government with a caliphate....If we were united and strong, we'd elect our own leader and give allegiance to him."

CAIR civil-rights coordinator Laura Jaghlit, a major contributor to both Sami al-Arian and the Holy Land Foundation

Muthanna al-Hanooti, suspect in the Focus on Advocacy and Advancement of International Relations and the LIFE for Relief and Development terrorism-funding cases.

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And there's lots more, including on the related Fiqh Council; but I'm getting tired of typing. But reflect on this juxtaposition:

"The deception needed to fool the infidels is like the head fake in basketball. He makes a player believe that he is doing this while he does something else. . . . Politics is a completion of war."

--CAIR co-founder Omar Ahmad

with this:

"[The Muslim Brotherhood] must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and ‘sabotaging’ its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and Allah’s religion is made victorious over all other religions.”

--An Explanatory Memorandum on the General Strategic Goal for the Brotherhood in North America (1991).

[solicitr]

vison, please. Reversing the numbers is irrelevant- what's absurd is the fact that the MSM have convinced 40-odd percent of the public that the Iraq war "cannot be won", even when it's manifestly the case that the war is already practically won.

And, no, we could not meaningfully have 'declared victory and gone home', not with what amounted to a civil war raging and terrorists running amok- bail out in the midst of chaos and call it 'victory?' Our goal was to end the violence and restore order: we've done it. *Now* we can talk about bringing the boys home.

Incidentally, the six dissident Sunni members have rejoined the Maliki government. Yes, Iraq does have a government which is extremely democratic by Middle Eastern standards. Can you name a single other one, aside from Israel?

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As to Iran- my assessment (and of course I'm no longer a military professional, just a hobbyist) is that any ground invasion of Iran would be foolish and a quagmire far bloodier than Iraq- and it's unnecessary, Although I generally don't advocate the use of airpower alone, in the case of Iran I think (for various reasons) we can achieve our goal of neutralising the Iranian threat and emasculating the mullahs by a brief but intense air campaign targeting military and nuclear sites, government and Revolutionary Guard facilities, and crucial elements of industrial, communications, transport, economic and petroleum infrastructure. Iran's economy is like an eggshell.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

McCain should repudiate [Bud Day's] comment in the strongest possible terms.

Why?????

Why? Because he made a grossly distorted statement condemning an entire religion, and he made it McCain's name, and implied that McCain agreed with him. If McCain does not strongly repudiate the comments, then the only reasonable conclusion is that he agrees with them.

EDIT: You've put yourself in the unenviable position of echoing a Hamas front group, Vor:

Corey Saylor, the national legislative director for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, told CNN Friday McCain should directly repudiate the remarks.

"CAIR would like to see Senator McCain come out and make a clear statement repudiating these remarks"

soli, I'm not "echoing" anyone. I am stating my opinion. The fact that it is someone else's opinion is completely beside the point. I'm sure that there are plenty of things that we all believe are true that have also been asserted by "bad people". That doesn't invalidate our beliefs.

[superwizard]

Soli I've read all these accusations and read the responses to them and I've also kept a close eye on what CAIR states in their press releases and while I may not agree with everything they argue for I firmly do not believe that they are, or affiliated to, extremist groups. You can read CAIR's statements on their website (http://www.cair.com/AboutUs/25FactsAboutCAIR.aspx and here http://www.cair.com/AboutUs/urbanlegends.aspx) and formulate your own opinion based on the data at hand.

Just as a side note I'd like to point out that 'CAIR officials have met or regularly meet with US Presidents, members of the administration, members of congress, governors, mayors, members of state legislatures, county commissioners and others. Several CAIR affiliates have received proclamations and citations from mayors and county commissioners.' (taken from their website)

[vison]

Newspaper story this morning telling us that a senior US diplomat, William Burns, is to meet with Iran's nuclear envoy, and Ms. C. Rice is to meet with North Korea's foreign minister in Singapore during the coming week.

What are we to make of that? Capitulation to the Axis of Evil?

As for the "war is won" in Iraq, I take leave to differ. It was always up to the US to decide when to leave - and that decision is not now and never was based on whether "victory" had been realized. The US had its reasons for invading Iraq and those reasons had nothing whatsoever to do with the desires and aspirations of the Iraqi people. To argue otherwise is the cruelest joke of the new century: they are faced with the prospect of rebuilding a nation destroyed by a callous and brutal invasion. It is going to be very interesting to see what Iraq looks like in five or ten years.

The invasion was wrong and moreover does not seem to have resulted in what the US sought. We can only hope that whoever the new president of the US is, he will have more sense than to spend his nation's men and substance on such tragic idiocy.

[sauronsfinger]

from solicitr

Our goal was to end the violence and restore order: we've done it.

What violence? What level of violence In Irag existed before we invaded them and brought violence to them?

Why did we need to "restore order" when there already was order in Iraq before we made war on a nation who never attacked us?

You make it sound like Iraq was going to hell on a roller coaster of and we came in and saved the day. Quite the opposite is true.

[solicitr]

SW- I would respectfully submit that you're falling for the head fake. CAIR represents sheeps' clothing for the wolves. The fact that various politicians have fallen for it just tells me that politicians can be fools -tho' that's hardly news.

You know, of all the many, many criminal defendants I've represented, hardly any were guilty-- according to them.

[solicitr]

Voronwë, you're a reasonable chap and an honorable advocate for your side, so I'm a little surprised that you would take this Daily Kossack sort of line, deliberately reading into a statement what plainly isn't there.

If I were to say (I think I have, actually), that "the Iranians will never give up their nuclear weapons program," I'm not of course ascribing anything to all 30 million Persians, but using "Iranians" as a shorthand for the Teheran regime. Similarly, Day was not referring to the world's 1.2-1.5 billion Muslims, but only to their leadership. I'm very surprised at you, frankly.

[solicitr]

Lord M, I'm a bit surprised that you, politics guru that you are, could regard Iranian 'democracy' as anything but a naked sham- a system where the only permitted candidates are right-wing hardliners, where all legislation and government action is subject to the veto of the self-appointed mullahs' Council, where Ahmadinejad's 'election' was so blatantly rigged by the Ayatollahs. You could just as accurately speak of Soviet 'democracy.'