Cartoons?

[JewelSong]

Well, there's a whole lot o' destroyin' going on in the Name of the LORD in the Old Testament. Plenty of fodder to justify slaying the infidels and all that. Just some random quotes...and there are hundreds.

31 The LORD said to me, "See, I have begun to deliver Sihon and his country over to you. Now begin to conquer and possess his land."

32 When Sihon and all his army came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz, 33 the LORD our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army. 34 At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed [c] them—men, women and children. We left no survivors. 35 But the livestock and the plunder from the towns we had captured we carried off for ourselves. 36 From Aroer on the rim of the Arnon Gorge, and from the town in the gorge, even as far as Gilead, not one town was too strong for us. The LORD our God gave us all of them. (Deut 2)

3 So the LORD our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. 4 At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them—the whole region of Argob, Og's kingdom in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages. 6 We completely destroyed [a] them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city—men, women and children. 7 But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves. (Deut 3)

20 When the trumpets sounded, the people shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the people gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so every man charged straight in, and they took the city. 21 They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys. (Joshua 6)

11 As soon as he began to reign and was seated on the throne, he killed off Baasha's whole family. He did not spare a single male, whether relative or friend. 12 So Zimri destroyed the whole family of Baasha, in accordance with the word of the LORD spoken against Baasha through the prophet Jehu- 13 because of all the sins Baasha and his son Elah had committed and had caused Israel to commit, so that they provoked the LORD, the God of Israel, to anger by their worthless idols. (I Kings 16)

I think the Bible (especially the Old Testament) is as bloody and full of vengeance as the Koran.

[vison]

Time will prove you wrong, Whistler. But you might be watching from a cloud whilst playing a harp.

Not that I expect anyone to help you get there, but that it might just take a very long time.

As for the "free speech" aspect, well, you either have it or you don't. What "motive" one ascribes to the speaker/cartoonist/film maker isn't the point.

The reaction of some Muslims to the offending cartoons, of drawing and printing cartoons meant to offend someone else, IS childish. But there you are. If we claim freedom for ourselves, we have to recognize it for others. Even though, in this case, it wasn't 'freedom of speech' they were standing up for.

Someone above had the right idea, I think. Let 'em go at it. Let 'em all overdose on insult, invective, poisonous dreck. At some point someone will say, "Wait a minute. What are we doing? Who are we hurting here?"

No one is making me look at any of the cartoons in question. So I won't.

[Whistler]

JS:

I am very well-versed in all of this.

It is part of an ancient covenant intended to impress upon man the wretchedness of his condition before God and the extreme severity of his sinfulness.

As a Christian, I believe that this covenant was designed for one purpose: to reveal the necessity of Christ and His sacrifice. And I believe that Christ has now done away with this harsh covenant, replacing it forever with the law of love and mercy.

If something new has replaced the bloody edicts of the Koran, I have yet to hear of it.

[Impenitent]

I find myself in the embarrasssing position of trying to explain a faith that is not my own and of which I have learnt only a little in a short course in comparative religion (admittedly with some brilliant and very giving Islamic scholars).

However, what I've said above is not supposition, but how Islam is defined by something like 97% of the Moslem world. The extremists are in the extreme minority.

Islam, like Judaism and Catholicism, is a religion based on a huge body of jurisprudence.

I must take an example from Judaism, which I know better and can therefore provide a detail without mis-speaking.

In the Torah, there are elaborate laws about the sacrifices required from the Israelites - what, when and how. Sacrifice was the primary form of worship described in the Torah - it makes allowance for nothing else, hints at nothing else.

But the Temple at which these sacrifices were to be made was destroyed 2000 years ago (the Western Wall is all that remains, with the Al-aqsa mosque on the top).

Yet Judaism continues; because in exile in Babylon, a huge body of law was built and rabbinic Judaism was created, based on Talmud, the body of law. And this is what we have today. Five books of Torah and 100 times the mass of those books of canon law, elaborating, debating, interpreting, highlighting, re-interpreting, arguing, nitpicking.

This is precisely the case with Islam. Pointing at the Koran and the life and sayings of the prophet while ignoring the body of law is NOT to do justice to modern Islam.

[Hachimitsu]

Thanks Imp.
I do not have much time since I have to go to work, but I just wanted to well uh.. disagree with you Whistler. I am really sorry.

I do not know very much about Islam but as Imp said there is a lot to be said for context. Context is very very important. Also, dosen't the word Islam mean Peace ? I go to a uh school with a pretty high South Asian population at my school. Many of them muslims. I went to school today and there was none of this stupidness thats on the news. Also, since I have had conversations like this before wpoeple tell me well since they are Canadian they wouldn't act this way. Well FYI there are lots of international students from the Islamic world at my school. I think it's an unfair characterization of an entire religion. There are quite a few things when in context is quite good. I am so sorry to say it.

Not to mention I have had a female muslim friend since early high school and I feel I have to defend my friends religion. Her family are from Iran and are good people. They are not at all the sterotypical muslims shown in the media. Heck you wouldn't even know they were muslim unless you asked. I haven't been exposed to much of islam but before 911 (and heck even after) almost all of my encounters have been postive and encouraging. Everytime I look at the TV concerning all of this it totally dosen't jive with the little I know of Islam.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I wish these defenses were true in the case of Islam, as they are regarding other faiths. But increasingly I fear that violent, intolerant Islam is the "real" Islam, with the "aberrant" Muslims being those who think and behave as civilized modern people.

I would be delighted to be proven wrong about that.

The answer to that is two-fold.

1. Support that portion of the Muslim community that do believe in peaceful co-existence, rather then marginalizing them.

2. Try to figure out how to "tame the beast" by addressing the underlying reasons (whatever they might be) that have caused a significant portion of the Muslim community to act in such an uncivilized manner.

Wilfully inciting that beast to madness only exacerbates the problem, making both of these goals more difficult.

In my oh so humble opinion.

[Whistler]

Wilma, I have made no statement with which to disagree. I have stated no opinion on the matter. I do hope that Islam is something better than what I see in the news.

But I am disheartened by the dominance of its more fanatical elements, and I am deeply disturbed by the very small number of prominent Muslims who are outspoken against the medieval mentality of many. Their silence is deafening.

I do not feel in the least apologetic about questioning the reason for that silence.

[yovargas]

But...isn't it a bit like Pat "I hate homosexuals" Robertson? You hear about his garbage spewing because it's attention grabbing. You don't hear about the Christians denouncing him cuz that's not "news".

[Whistler]

He has not made that statement. And don't say that simply objecting to the gay lifestyle amounts to the same thing because it does not.

But if he did, he would be in violation of everything Christianity stands for, and I and a few thousand other people I know would say as much. And if he committed an act of destruction or violence, or encouraged others to, we would be in the streets to voice our opposition.

Please do not try to draw parallels where they do not exist. No "Christian" that I know of is committing murder and mayhem with even the tacit approval of any Christian cleric whom anybody respects.

This mentality of "moral equivalency" is a dangerous and misguided one. The thinking is, "if such-and-such a culture is immoral in a particular way, it stands to reason that our culture must be equally bad, though perhaps in a different way."

Sorry, I feel no need to burden myself with Western Christian guilt, just because somebody thinks the world is more "fair" that way.

[Túrin Turambar]

Part of it is geographical - Christians tend to live in the west (or South America, but you don't hear too much about that), where they are educated and accustomed to liberal democracy and a tolerant society. By contrast, Muslims tend to live in the Middle East and North Africa, where they are used to theocratic dictatorships and where education amounts to indoctrination. There have certainly been some progressive Muslim societies in the past, when the tables were turned (the Fatamid Caliphate, or Valencia or Zaragossa).

Still, it doesn't matter now. As it stands at this point in time, there are more fundamentalist, intolerant Muslims in the world than there are progessive, liberal ones. Hamas could not have won in Palestine if that was not the case. President Ahjemwhatshisname would not have won in Iran if that was not the case. The human rights abuses that are regularly seen in East Africa would not persist, honour killings and other such traditions would not be as persistant as they are now, and Al-Qaeda could not hide so effectivley in Syria and Saudi Arabia if that was not the case. What we do about it is the question we need to ask.

[yovargas]

Not what I was getting at at all, Whistler. My point was much simpler than that: Robertson (or is it Falwell?) has made extremists statements, such as claiming things like 9/11 or New Orleans are God punishing homosexuals or whatever (the exact statement isn't the point). My point was merely to point out that when they say garbage like that, they always get a bunch of attention by the mere fact of being extreme. The average Christian likely disagrees with such sentiments, but their disagreement doesn't get heard much because that's not attention-grabbing. Just like Robertson and Co. put a bad face on Christianity simply by being the most visible & vocal, so, I would think, Islam's extremist put a bad face on Islam simply by being the most visible & vocal.

"Breaking news - Most Muslims don't want to kill you!" isn't gonna grab the ratings like the alternative.

[Whistler]

Yes, Yov. Sorry to have gone off on a bit of a tangent there.

Unfortunately it is true that crackpot behavior makes for "good" news, while responsible behavior does not.

Doubtless much of what inspires Islamic terrorism is the knowledge that enormous press coverage is ensured from it. That is one price we pay for our insatiable appetite to know EVERYTHING RIGHT NOW in our culture of info-tainment.

Well, you can't deny that we're getting quite a show.

[Impenitent]

... there are more fundamentalist, intolerant Muslims in the world than there are progessive, liberal ones.

I question whether this is true, numerically speaking, or whether it is the impression one gets from the media.

Hamas could not have won in Palestine if that was not the case.

I suggest that it was not so much their theology which won the day but that Fatah is known to be so corrupt that they disgusted their constituents.

President Ahjemwhatshisname would not have won in Iran if that was not the case.

Do not discount the power of the effect of an anti-democratic heritage and propaganda.

I am not minimising the danger posed by islamic extremism; I am questioning the characterisation of it as the dominant arm in Islam.

And I find myself astounded in taking this role of apologist!

Whistler, I acknowledge (because anyone reading my posts above may have inferred differently) that you have not expressed an opinion on Islam but rather expressed your distress at what you see.

I, too, am distressed and fearful for what it means for the way the peace-loving in the world can function.

[nerdanel]

Purely to flesh out yov's point (which I think is very insightful), and not to make this a discussion about Pat Robertson...the man in his own words. The media simply likes to report outrageous statements, and Robertson gives them their wish in spades. It certainly follows logic that the same would be true in their coverage of the Islamic world (which is NOT to assert a moral equivalency in one direction or the other.) What makes more engaging news, watching a rioting horde chant, "DEATH TO THE WEST!" or viewing a group of Muslims praying for peace? More thoughts tomorrow.

On gays and lesbians:

I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way - all of them who have tried to secularize America - I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this [9/11] happen."

Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.

When lawlessness is abroad in the land, the same thing will happen here that happened in Nazi Germany. Many of those people involved with Adolph Hitler were Satanists, many of them were homosexuals – the two things seem to go together.

On the plight of evangelical Christians in this country (which is, apparently, equivalent to the plight of Jews in Nazi Germany):

Just like what Nazi Germany did to the Jews, so liberal America is now doing to the evangelical Christians. It's no different. It is the same thing. It is happening all over again. It is the Democratic Congress, the liberal-based media and the homosexuals who want to destroy the Christians. Wholesale abuse and discrimination and the worst bigotry directed toward any group in America today. More terrible than anything suffered by any minority in history.

On Hindus:

If anybody understood what Hindus really believe, there would be no doubt that they have no business administering government policies in a country that favors freedom and equality.

We're importing Hinduism into America. The whole thought of your karma, of meditation, of the fact that there's no end of life and there's this endless wheel of life, this is all Hinduism. Chanting too. Many of those chants are to Hindu Gods -- Vishnu, Hare Krishna. The origin of it is all demonic. We can't let that stuff come into America. We've got the best defense, if you will -- a good offense.

The media challenged me. `You're not going to bring atheists into the government? How dare you maintain that those who believe the Judeo-Christian values are better qualified to govern America than Hindus and Muslims?' My simple answer is, `Yes, they are.'

Why Pat Robertson doesn't like feminism:

I know this is painful for the ladies to hear, but if you get married, you have accepted the headship of a man, your husband. Christ is the head of the household and the husband is the head of the wife, and that's the way it is, period.

[Túrin Turambar]

I am not minimising the danger posed by islamic extremism; I am questioning the characterisation of it as the dominant arm in Islam.

'Extremism', by definition, is extreme. That being said, I sdo argue that fundamentalism is dominant among Muslims outside the west (and places like China, India, Turkey, ect).

[Impenitent]

I got googling, something I rarely do.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Top 10 Largest National Muslim Populations
Indonesia 170,310,000
Pakistan 136,000,000
Bangladesh 106,050,000
India 103,000,000
Turkey 62,410,000
Iran 60,790,000
Egypt 53,730,000
Nigeria 47,720,000
China 37,108,000

Iraq (pop. 26 mil ) and Saudi Arabia (pop. 23 million) are not on the top 10 list but neither is Malaysia (with 24 million people).

Would you say that the Muslim states of Indonesia, Pakistan and Bangladesh, and the Muslem population of India, are fundamentalist? Or of Egypt? Or of China?

I agree that many of the muslim states in Middle East has never come to grips with the modern world, but Northern Africa has many problems, only some of which are based on theological fundamentalism - war, famine, lack of resources, education, infrastructure - lack of working economies - would create extremism in most any place, I think.

I do dispute the view that most muslims have fundamentalist tendencies.

[Túrin Turambar]

Not most all-up, but most in the places with the problems that you mention - the Middle East and North Africa. There, fundamentalism is the 'default' interpretation of Islam.

[Túrin Turambar]

Here's a spinoff from Pakistan:

Koran riots rock city

From correspondents in Lahore, Pakistan
February 08, 2006

AT least 3000 protesters enraged by the alleged desecration of the Koran clashed with police and torched two cinemas in Pakistan's second largest city Lahore, police said today.

The city, which is the capital of Punjab province, was tense after the mob rampaged through a poor neighbourhood overnight and also smashed up dozens of vehicles, local police officer Mohammad Abbas said. The trouble erupted late yesterday when copies of the Muslim holy book were found lying in a drain in the Bhatta area on the fringes of the sprawling city, located near the Indian border.

"The news of the desecration of the Koran spread quickly in the neighbourhood and within no time some three to four thousand people took to the streets shouting slogans against the desecration," Mr Abbas said.

He said the crowd armed with bamboo sticks turned violent, setting fire to two cinema houses and attacking public and private properties.

"Police used a mild baton charge to restore order but the situation is very tense," he said.

Mr Abbas said police had registered a case against unknown people under the country's blasphemy laws.

The violent protest came amid outrage in Pakistan and other Muslim countries over the publication of cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed in European newspapers.

Police were already out in force across Pakistan for the Muslim holy month of Muharram, when the minority Shi'ite community mourns the death of Mohammed's grandson, officials said.

link

[yovargas]

Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.

Many of those people involved with Adolph Hitler were Satanists, many of them were homosexuals – the two things seem to go together.

Wholesale abuse and discrimination and the worst bigotry directed toward any group in America today.

More terrible than anything suffered by any minority in history.

[Whistler]