Cartoons?

[Alatar]

What if I drew a cartoon of Fat people queueing up to enroll at "Auschwitz - The Health Spa" and coming out gaunt. Would that be satirical or offensive?

I can guarantee that very close to 100% of people who lost family members at Auschwitz (or Oświęcim, as it is properly called in Polish) would find that extremely offensive and upsetting. I know I would.

I don't disagree V. But does it also count as satire?

[Meneltarma]

Husain seems to unintentionally offend everyone. A few years ago he pained an anatomically correct version of a Hindu goddess and the Hindu right was not happy. Then a couple of years ago he used a line from the Koran in one of his movies and the reaction from the Muslim community caused it to be withdrawn from theatres.

I've seen this particular painting and I honestly can't see what's so offensive about it. Sure, the woman's naked, but her body's bright red and not particularly detailed. And must we persist in seeing female nudity as an insult? And since it's the personification of India, you'd think other religious communities would be getting worked up too, wouldn't you?

*sigh*. Husain has chosen not to exhibit that painting, saying that while he loves art 'he loves humanity more'. I hate that he had to do this (though I
really don't think it's a very good painting) but I'm glad he did it voluntarily and saved us the bother of all the mob violence.

(I am less tolerant of Hindu stupidity than I am of any other religious community. As long as I have a Hindu surname, they're dragging me down with them. )

[Whistler]

Alatar, the question is, what's being satirized?

The simple fact that people lost enormous amounts of weight in prison camps does not tell us anything beside the obvious. Now, the point might be that people today are so fanatical about weight loss that some would endure hell itself to achieve it...that might be a (weak) satirical point. But the joke would be on the people's fanaticism, not on Auschwitz survivors.

And the point would be lost, at any rate, due to the psychological baggage that the whole Western world carries because of the holocaust. So the cartoon wouldn't work, whatever its intentions.

[ToshoftheWuffingas]

A modest proposal anyone?

[Meneltarma]

I just found this, apparently it's quite a well-known site:


http://www.bendib.com/newones/2006/febr ... rtoons.jpg

[JewelSong]

Alatar wrote:

What if I drew a cartoon of Fat people queueing up to enroll at "Auschwitz - The Health Spa" and coming out gaunt. Would that be satirical or offensive?

Both...and also in poor taste. But you could be making a statement about the obsession with being thin. And so you could (possibly) justify your cartoon because you might be trying to get people to think.

[truehobbit]

Hmmh, there have been some great humourous stories about the Holocaust and it seems that Jews themselves are great at satirising this and finding something to create a laugh.

There ARE?? Not in the US, as far as I know.

Jewel, I was thinking of two movies in particular: La vita è bella, which I'm sure you know because it won some Oscars, and Train de vie (Train of Life), of which I couldn't find a decent English website, so this is a German language one with a few pics.
Interestingly, the webpage linked to for Benigni's movie (which also talks about Train de vie on another page) said there had been criticism of the movie for making the Holocaust something you could laugh about - I didn't know there had been such criticism!
I loved La vita è bella a lot! I don't know if Benigni is Jewish, though I think not. Train de vie, which I saw on TV a few weeks ago, is by a Jewish director, and made with support from Israel. It tells the story of a Jewish "shtetl" that decides to deport itself before the Germans can do it. It wasn't the greatest filmmaking, but it had some lovely humourous scenes and a bitter twist at the end.

And now, in the fine tradition of folk-music satire, someone has written one about the current situation. It''s called "It's In the Koran." You can see the words and listen to a recording of it here:

I must admit the clip made me laugh, but I also thought it was rather unfair!

It says that killing people is "in the Koran" - and that's exactly what Muslims always deny! I haven't read it, so I don't know - does anyone here?

From the "explanations":

It does not imply that support for the Islamists' barbaric acts is to be found in the Koran. This may be true, but the song does not really take a position on it. The point is the radical Islamists think it is true.

I think the song very clearly says that the Koran sanctions killing people - nowhere does it imply that only people who misinterpret the Koran believe it's there, unless you assume that the "speaker" of the song must be a deranged extremist and hence not representative for all Muslims. However, I think that's a subtle differentiation a listener can be excused for overlooking!

I just saw a cartoon of Hitler in bed with Anne Frank, smoking a cigarette and saying, "Write about that in your diary, Anne!"

I think that's totally disgusting!
Maybe I just don't get the point, but it seems to ridicule the fact Anne wrote a diary and maybe imply that the diary was made up, plus messing sexually with a 13-year-old victim of Nazism - so I don't know how that's supposed to be funny.
If it tried to make fun of Hitler, it doesn't work, I think.

As to Alatar's example, I think it's offensive, but that's only, I think, because it seems that mocking Auschwitz was the butt of the joke - I think if it could me made clear that the prime objective of the satire was the idiotic craving for slimness in modern society it might just work.
Maybe with a different caption? Instead of "Auschwitz - The Health Spa" it could say "A sure way to lose weight" or something like that - the focus might change from the horror of the KZ to just how stupid people's interest in weight-loss is. Not sure - what do you think?

Hmmh, I know a KZ-joke, too, I actually think it's funny, but I'm reluctant to tell it, as we're not talking about when a joke is funny.

What the wikipedia site said about the South Park episode sounds like it's both clever and funny. But then, I guess, a scientologist wouldn't think so.

When I read headlines yesterday that the police had been unable to contain the riots and thought of the images I'd seen on TV of people going completely beserk, I thought the thing to do would be to get everybody who just lives in the area out of there, cordon off the area tightly, switch off all the cameras - and have another look next week

Hobby, that is the most sensible suggestion I have heard yet about this whole mess. I nominate you for...something!

Thanks, Jewel! You are my eval sistah!

Edited to add:

A modest proposal anyone?

I think it's funny and a great satire, but I saw a book about Swift in our Uni library, written in Germany about 1913 or so, which did not get that it was meant to be a satire, and expressed great disgust with the sick individual that could produce such ideas!
Shows everything can go wrong!

[JewelSong]

Jewel, I was thinking of two movies in particular: La vita è bella, which I'm sure you know because it won some Oscars, and Train de vie (Train of Life) ,

I have heard of La vita e bella, but never seen it, and I never heard of "Train of Life." But neither are US-made movies. I suppose I should check them out!

From the "explanations":

It does not imply that support for the Islamists' barbaric acts is to be found in the Koran. This may be true, but the song does not really take a position on it. The point is the radical Islamists think it is true.

I think the song very clearly says that the Koran sanctions killing people - nowhere does it imply that only people who misinterpret the Koran believe it's there, unless you assume that the "speaker" of the song must be a deranged extremist and hence not representative for all Muslims. However, I think that's a subtle differentiation a listener can be excused for overlooking!

I think a similar song could be written about some Fundamentalist Christian groups. The Bible says lots of things, too...including a passage about how disobedient children should be taken out and stoned to death. People quote the Bible (most times, out of context ) to justify all sorts of atrocities...because it's "in the Bible."

I think it is obvious, even without knowing exactly what the Koran says, that the song is satirical.

[anthriel]

Does anyone else see that response of the Iranian newspaper as kind of... well... childish? You stick your tongue out at us, well we'll stick our tongue out at you, see how YOU like it?

I say ignore it. Ignore the dumb Anne Frank joke, too, because in the end, it IS dumb. Whatever. That person is just trying to be imflammatory, by choosing an innocent, intelligent, lonely, articulate, wonderful child and trying to debase her memory with stupidity.

Anyone can draw a cartoon with someone in bed with someone else, and try to sell it as some sort of deep commentary or art or something. It's just stupid and a waste of paper.

It'll just make me go back and reread her book and absorb, once again, the power of her words and life.

As far as how upsetting the Holocaust cartoons should be? I dunno. They're just words and pictures, and we can choose to pay then lots of attention or none. WE have the power on this one, folks.

To me, it is FAR more unsettling and dangerous that the leadership of Iran is trying to convince its people that the Holocaust never happened.

That horrifies me to the very bone.

[Whistler]

I've read the Koran.

Endorsement of killing infidels is most certainly there, along with a command to make a great heap of their disembodied heads.

[truehobbit]

Good point, Jewel! It does say a lot of gruesome things in the Bible, which could be used in such a context.

And I didn't know there were people who hadn't seen "La vita e bella"!

And I was stupid not to look for the movie under its English title - here's a nice review of "Train of life":http://www.culturevulture.net/Movies/TrainofLife.htm

One of the German language sites I found quoted the director as having said: Lauging at something is just another way of crying about it.
I guess I meant something along these lines when I said earlier that I thought Jews were particularly skilled at finding something to laugh at in horrible situations - it seems to me a "Jewish" outlook on life, something about a particular, Jewish sense of humour (I'm aware that's a stereotype, I hope it's not offensive! ).

Edited to add: wow, Whistler! Thanks for the info!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Its not offensive to me, Hobby; I think its complimentary (and accurate, at least to some extent). I certainly don't have any objections to using humor to help tell some aspect of the story of the holocaust. But neither the Anne Frank cartoon nor Alatar's hypothetical example do that, in my opinion.

[Whistler]

La vita a bella is a great film.

Am I the only one who has thought that, in an earlier day, it would have been a Charlie Chaplin movie?

[truehobbit]

Thanks, Voronwë!
I also think it's meant as a compliment, and I sure think it's a good thing if people say about someone they know how to laugh in the face of evil - but it's still a generalisation and as such might be considered offensive, especially if someone thinks it's incorrect - I'm glad you think it's true to a certain extent.

Am I the only one who has thought that, in an earlier day, it would have been a Charlie Chaplin movie?

I don't remember ever having thought of it, but now that you say it - YES! A lot of Chaplinesque traits!

[Impenitent]

I've read the Koran.

Endorsement of killing infidels is most certainly there, along with a command to make a great heap of their disembodied heads.

True, the Koran does contain that text.

However, leaving it at that is very misleading - as Jewel said, one can quote baldly from the Bible that disobedient children must be stoned - also adulterers and other sinners.

Islam is not so simple.

Islam is not just the Koran, just as Judaism is not just the Torah.

The Torah is 5 slim books - but Jewish jurisprudence relies also on the prophets, psalms, on various apocrypha and of course, on the Talmud 15 centuries worth of debate, argument and legislature. To ignore Talmud is to not know Judaism.

It is the same with Islam. Islam is indeed based on the Koran - but there is also the life and sayings of the prophet (very, very important! and considered the second tier) and then there are similar centuries of debate and argument, creating a body of law which is part and parcel of modern Islam!

If I didn't have a sieve-like brain I'd remember the correct names for these tiers of jurisprudence and provide them - further, I'm an impatient and ineffective googler.

Anyway - this is the crux of the problem - the extremists have wiped out a whole tier of jurisprudence and ignore centuries of thoughtful, careful debate by their most respected imams. They focus only the Koran, which was written during a very militant period of Islam's history, when the prophet and his followers were fighting, literally, for their lives. The Koran can be understood properly only when considered in the context of the historic and cultural period in which it was written.

It is incorrect to conclude, therefore, that because some passages in the Koran urge the killing of the infidel that modern Islam condones this. Layers and upon layers of Islamic law suggest it is not so.

[Alatar]

"Life is Beautiful" as it was marketed here is a beautiful film, but it doesn't make light of the Holocaust. It shows that even in the most profound horror the human spirit can survive and find humour and life. It is not a comedy about the holocaust but rather comedy in defiance of the holoscaust.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I suppose I should post a little more detail about my opinion on the original subject, beyond "utter idiots and utter-er idiots."

The Bush administration offered support Friday to protesters angry over caricatures of the prophet Muhammad published in Europe, saying of the cartoons, "We find them offensive, and we certainly understand why Muslims would find these images offensive."

...

State Department spokesman Sean McCormack, reading the U.S. government's statement on the controversy, said, "Anti-Muslim images are as unacceptable as anti-Semitic images," which are routinely published in the Arab press, "as anti-Christian images, or any other religious belief."

...

Still, the United States defended the right of the Danish and French newspapers to publish the cartoons. "We vigorously defend the right of individuals to express points of view," McCormack added.

For once, I am perfectly in tune with the position of my government. The papers certainly should not be restrained by the governments of the countries involved. And of course I am outraged by the ridiculous over-reaction by people in parts of the Muslim world. But I also think that it was utterly irresponsible to publish these cartoons in the first place. I am all for free speech, when someone actually has something to say. But not where the purpose of the speech is simply to say "I'm going to say this to prove that I can," which is how I interpret both the original publication of the images and the re-publication of them in other European papers. The editors at Jyllands-Posten knew full well that Muslims would find the cartoons offensive. With all of the tension that exists between the western world and the Muslim world, we should be striving to find ways to bridge the wide gap that separates people, not exacerbate the shibboleths that separate us.

[JewelSong]

Anyway - this is the crux of the problem - the extremists have wiped out a whole tier of jurisprudence and ignore centuries of thoughtful, careful debate by their most respected imams. They focus only the Koran, which was written during a very militant period of Islam's history, when the prophet and his followers were fighting, literally, for their lives. The Koran can be understood properly only when considered in the context of the historic and cultural period in which it was written.

Ditto the Bible. There are some extremely violent portions of the Bible and some very strict laws laid down in Leviticus. There is also some incredible imagery in Revelation, which many people take literally (at the time it was written, it was actually likely a political allegory.)

If you focus only on one part of a large text and/or you fail to consider said text in proper context, there are bound to be problems.

[truehobbit]

They focus only the Koran, which was written during a very militant period of Islam's history, when the prophet and his followers were fighting, literally, for their lives. The Koran can be understood properly only when considered in the context of the historic and cultural period in which it was written.

It is incorrect to conclude, therefore, that because some passages in the Koran urge the killing of the infidel that modern Islam condones this. Layers and upon layers of Islamic law suggest it is not so.

Hmmh, Imp, thanks for the further info - but, even though that's probably offensive, to me that still sounds pretty condemning. The Koran is the central book, isn't it? So, ok, there are centuries of scholars who were wiser than that and tried to argue these things away, but that doesn't change the fact that they are at the foundation of the religion - its very cornerstone, really, from what you say about the way they came into being written.

"Life is Beautiful" as it was marketed here is a beautiful film, but it doesn't make light of the Holocaust. It shows that even in the most profound horror the human spirit can survive and find humour and life. It is not a comedy about the holocaust but rather comedy in defiance of the holoscaust.

That's right, Alatar! But I think, if you wanted to think ill of it, you could also say that it pretends that it was possible to ignore or overlook the horrors, which is quite impossible, and could therefore be considered as minimising the horror. I think it's showing this humour that offends some people. And I think it's true that, when you read or see a straightforward documentary, it's so horrible that you can't think of anything humourous anymore.

[Whistler]

I wish these defenses were true in the case of Islam, as they are regarding other faiths. But increasingly I fear that violent, intolerant Islam is the "real" Islam, with the "aberrant" Muslims being those who think and behave as civilized modern people.

I would be delighted to be proven wrong about that.