Cartoons?

[Whistler]

My opinion? It all depends on where the focus of the humor is intended. A holocaust cartoon commenting on some issue tangential to the human suffering itself might be shocking, but still valid. Of course, a cartoonist venturing onto such turf should expect to be attacked by those who fail to get the point. So I think it is not forbidden ground, but ground that is better left untouched.

An important element is the identity of the person from whom the humor originates. I would say that your brother-in-law (who is Jewish, I presume) could get away with a holocaust-related joke, whereas I could not. Some weeks ago, we were having a discussion here of the play (and movie) The Producers, which turns Hitler into a fun-loving song and dance man. How does Mel Brooks, its creator, get away with this? By being a Jew old enough to have experienced the Second World War. Nobody questions his true feelings, so he’s given great creative freedom that somebody else would be denied.

But it works both ways, of course! Given the deeply rooted anti-Semitism of militant Islam, I would say that no Muslim could possibly create a holocaust cartoon that any of us could be persuaded to accept as making any valid satirical point. Rightly or wrongly, we would assume that ethnic hatred lay at the root of it.

And I think that is as it should be, for now.

[vison]

I have long been of the opinion that militant Islam is not anti-Semitic, but rather anti-State-of-Israel, anti-Zionist.

Yet lately some of the rhetoric coming from some Muslims has got me thinking otherwise.

I am one who supports freedom of speech. I also think that there are times when it is better not to speak. Or rather, I suppose, there are some things that might be better not said, no matter how truthful. Not every truth needs to be spoken aloud.

However, once you've done so, once the words have been spoken, the cartoon published, the broadcast made, the principle of free speech requires that it be defended.

[Ethel]

Oh, the white folks hate the black folks,
And the black folks hate the white folks.
To hate all but the right folks
Is an old established rule.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
Lena Horne and Sheriff Clarke are dancing cheek to cheek.
It’s fun to eulogize
The people you despise,
As long as you don’t let ’em in your school.

Oh, the poor folks hate the rich folks,
And the rich folks hate the poor folks.
All of my folks hate all of your folks,
It’s American as apple pie.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
New Yorkers love the Puerto Ricans ’cause it’s very chic.
Step up and shake the hand
Of someone you can’t stand.
You can tolerate him if you try.

Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Moslems,
And everybody hates the Jews.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
It’s national everyone-smile-at-one-another-hood week.
Be nice to people who
Are inferior to you.
It’s only for a week, so have no fear.
Be grateful that it doesn’t last all year!

[truehobbit]

LOL, yes, on TORC someone published something from an Arab newspaper or so, where it was all part of the Jewish world-conspiracy!

Hmmh, there have been some great humourous stories about the Holocaust and it seems that Jews themselves are great at satirising this and finding something to create a laugh. So I don't think it's an untouchable area. However, as Whistler said, coming from a hostile source it could not make any valid points. Such a cartoon, I think, would probably be hurtful to people concerned.

As to reactions to this like Imp expressed them, I must say I quite agree with these sentiments.

When I read headlines yesterday that the police had been unable to contain the riots and thought of the images I'd seen on TV of people going completely beserk, I thought the thing to do would be to get everybody who just lives in the area out of there, cordon off the area tightly, switch off all the cameras - and have another look next week.

[JewelSong]

Hmmh, there have been some great humourous stories about the Holocaust and it seems that Jews themselves are great at satirising this and finding something to create a laugh.

There ARE?? Not in the US, as far as I know.

Ethel, that song by Tom Lehrer still makes me laugh, along with "Vatican Rag."

And now, in the fine tradition of folk-music satire, someone has written one about the current situation. It''s called "It's In the Koran." You can see the words and listen to a recording of it here:

http://www.angelfire.com/blog/lbrtyorde ... nthekoran/

There's an explanation and other writings here:
http://markhumphrys.com/in.the.koran.html

When I read headlines yesterday that the police had been unable to contain the riots and thought of the images I'd seen on TV of people going completely beserk, I thought the thing to do would be to get everybody who just lives in the area out of there, cordon off the area tightly, switch off all the cameras - and have another look next week

Hobby, that is the most sensible suggestion I have heard yet about this whole mess. I nominate you for...something!

[Whistler]

I just saw a cartoon of Hitler in bed with Anne Frank, smoking a cigarette and saying, "Write about that in your diary, Anne!"

[yovargas]

Good lord that's awful.

[JewelSong]

Am I an awful person because I thought it was funny?

Thought so.

*slinks away*

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I don't think that is remotely funny. I find it sickening.

[JewelSong]

Sometimes, Voronwë, "black" humor is the only way through horror. At least, for me. And for others, as well.

I know people who have found the Tom Lehrer songs "sickening" as well as horribly insulting, while I find them clever and very funny.

IS the afore-mentioned cartoon sickening? It's black humor, that's for sure. And in terrible taste and horribly politically incorrect and just plain BAD. And it crosses boundaries and twists a whole bunch of morals. And I wouldn't show it in mixed company or at any kind of gathering or share it with most people.

But my first reaction was a guffaw, accompanied by a mental shake of my head and a muttered "Man, that's BAD!"

FWIW, YMMV.

[Whistler]

Sometimes we laugh at things that are not funny just because we're not supposed to laugh. It doesn't necessarily mean that we're insensitive, just that we're responding to an uneasy situation in the best way we can. I personally love Tom Lehrer.

However, I think this is a bad cartoon. It's bad because it makes no point whatever other than to express contempt. Humor must always be a way of revealing truth, even if the truth is grim. Nothing is revealed here except that the artist hates Jews. And that's a truth we can live without.

[JewelSong]

However, I think this is a bad cartoon. It's bad because it makes no point whatever other than to express contempt. Humor must always be a way of revealing truth, even if the truth is grim.

Well, I think there are other kinds of humor...although obviously not everyone finds all jokes funny. And some humor is admittedly juvenile and some (like the ubiquitous "dead baby" jokes and the seemingly immortal "Helen Keller" jokes) funny because they are deliberately crass or touch on subjects which are out-of-bounds or "bad." And we find different things funny depending on our age, gender, circumstances, experiences, mind-set, etc.

However, this thread is not supposed to be about why jokes are funny. So I will cease and desist on this topic. Maybe I will start another thread, though...it could prove interesting.

[Whistler]

Yes, certainly there are many other kinds of humor! And some of the best kinds have no apparent purpose at all.

But this is meant to be a satirical cartoon, and its purpose is understood to be an attempt to uncover truth. In this respect it fails.

We return you now to our original topic.

[Alatar]

Good point Whistler.

What if I drew a cartoon of Fat people queueing up to enroll at "Auschwitz - The Health Spa" and coming out gaunt. Would that be satirical or offensive?

[JewelSong]

But this is meant to be a satirical cartoon, and its purpose is understood to be an attempt to uncover truth. In this respect it fails.

We return you now to our original topic.

Okay, this is back on topic, I swear!

I do not think that the cartoon with Hitler and Anne Frank is meant to be a satrical cartoon. I think it is meant to be insulting to Jews and others - as a way of trading insult for insult, if you will.

I do not think that political satire is well understood in the extreme Islamic camps. To them, the cartoons of Mohammed could only have one purpose - to insult Islam. The idea that political cartoons are meant to provoke and stimulate dialogue and thought is completely foreign. Those cartoons(in their mind!) had no other purpose than insult and ridicule.

And so, in an attempt to "fight back" without using violence, they have devised cartoons meant to insult the ones they perceive as being the impetus for the Mohammed cartoons - the Jews (of course) and others who are on the "opposing side." Sort of like, "There - see how you like it! Ha! In your face!"

The ironic thing is that I feel that this kind of approach might actually and eventually defuse the situation - if allowed to just run its course. Everyone should print the most insulting and off-the-wall cartoons they can think of. It could be the War of the Political Cartoons! Anne Frank in bed with Hitler! Mohammed having sex with a camel! Jesus getting drunk in a gay orgy with his disciples! The Buddha singing in a karaoke bar! The Virgin Mary running a brothel! Lao-Tse doing something or other!

Insult 'em all! Go wild! And maybe it will lose steam - because words and pictures only have the power that people give them.

Because of this controversy, I found and watched the South Park episode "Super Best Friends." In it, Jesus teams up with other religious figures to combat a false religion ("Blaintology" - a not-very-subtle form of Scientology.) I kind of liked it...and although some might find it blashphemous, I found it kind of - well, entertaining and even enlightening. I think we need more cartoons.

Wikipedia article about the episode, including a link to a streaming video of the entire thing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Best_Friends

[Meneltarma]

One of the major reactions to the cartoons in the muslim world (and I've heard this from moderate muslims who are horrified at the way other muslims are protesting) has been to ask how those cartoons would have been interpreted if they had attacked black people or jews. They say (and I don't know if this is true) that most European countries have laws against anti-semitism that would mean cartoons like this could not be published if they were about Jews. In that case it makes a sort of twisted sense for newspapers to target jews... disgusting as it is.

[Whistler]

The cartoons attack a mindset, not a people.

What's so infuriating is that these extremists can't recognize the difference.

Or rather, that they simply choose not to.

[Cerin]

Well, it may turn out being helpful in that it contrasts a civilized reaction with their uncivilized one.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

What if I drew a cartoon of Fat people queueing up to enroll at "Auschwitz - The Health Spa" and coming out gaunt. Would that be satirical or offensive?

I can guarantee that very close to 100% of people who lost family members at Auschwitz (or Oświęcim, as it is properly called in Polish) would find that extremely offensive and upsetting. I know I would.

[Whistler]

And now for something completely different: A Muslim artist whose work offends Hindus!

Police probe Hussain over nude 'Mother India'
Wednesday February 8 2006 00:00 IST
Reuters

MUMBAI: Police are investigating a complaint against one of the country's best-known artists after he portrayed “Mother India” as a naked woman angering far-right Hindus, police said on Tuesday.

Nationalist politicians and activists routinely criticise Maqbool Fida Hussain's paintings which often depict revered Hindu gods and goddesses in the nude. A decade ago, radicals even attacked his Mumbai home.

The maverick artist's latest work, part of a series to be auctioned in aid of Indian victims of last year's South Asian earthquake, shows a naked woman in front of a wheel resembling the one used in India's national flag. The names of some of India's states are written across her body.

A similar composition of a sari-clad woman with a wheel -- a Buddhist symbol known in Hindi as the dharma chakra -- in the background is used to portray “Mother India” in many patriotic publications.

“Hussain's latest painting offends not only Hindus but Indians at large,” said Ramesh Shinde, a spokesman for the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti that lodged the police complaint.

“He cannot be allowed to insult Indians and Hindus in the name of artistic licence.”

Shinde's group went to the police last week, calling for the arrest of Hussain, 90, whose flowing white locks and beard, and his habit of walking barefoot have become iconic in Indian art circles.

“We are looking into the matter,” said a police official, who asked not to be identified. He refused to give further details of the probe.

In the past, Hussain, a Muslim, has received support from moderate, progressive Hindus, and on one occasion a former prime minister intervened to ensure no action was taken against him.

In 2004, Hussain sealed a deal with a leading businessman to paint 100 canvases for one billion Indian rupees, in one of the biggest sales in the country's growing art market.