Roe v Wade has been overturned. How do you feel about that?

[halplm]

That's not true, VtF. For some people it's not negative at all (I'm from the south, this I know), simply descriptive.

Also, it is used in hip hop culture extensively, not in any derrogatory sense, but as a term of solidarity or protest.

Parasite, for all its scientific accuracy, still provides negative reinforcement of a concept foreign to many people. Is it SO hard to undrestand that and simply NOT refer to unborn children that way?

[Jnyusa]

Prim, yes I understand that the fetus cannot ultimately become anything other than human, but part of being human seems to be to carry these earlier characteristics coded somewhere in our DNA. The fetus does not breathe through the gills any more than it breathes through its lungs, but they do appear and then disappear again, and there are other pre-human characteristics that the fetus will display as well over the course of development ... I just don't recall what they all were.

Will have to do some more research, I see, and come back with some supporting info.

Jn

[nerdanel]

This discussion has doubled since the last time I posted, so I'm not even going to try to go back and respond to the points I wanted to. Just a few words on the parasite terminology.

There are two possibilities, of course. Both are as entirely valid as any other expression of feeling regarding the developing fetus.

(1) People using the term scientifically/descriptively.

Most people who used the word "parasite" have stated they intended to do so in this sense, and have provided their reasons. In fact, many of these people are mothers who - from my observations of how they talk about their children - very much love and care for them, and view them as desirable and to be protected.

(2) People using the term with an intended negative connotation in addition to the scientific/descriptive meaning.

I fall into this latter category, which has already been vilified, so I'd like to reflect briefly on why I consistently choose the word.

First, I aspire to be respectful of every woman's views towards her experience(s) of pregnancy, or what her intuition tells her would be her experience of pregnancy. I have tried, in particular, to listen carefully to the thoughts of women who have experienced pregnancy, and, to paint with a broad brush, their experiences seem to fall into the following categories.

(excluding women whose post-pregnancy experiences gave them reason to wish that they had never been pregnant)

- Women who found the positive aspects of pregnancy to exceed the negative. These are women who speak with reverence of the experience of feeling a new life grow and develop inside them, and who describe (at least in retrospect) the pains and complications of pregnancy as being a necessary, forgettable tradeoff.

- Women who found the negative aspects of pregnancy itself to exceed the positive, but who subsequently found that the positive aftermath of pregnancy validated the negative moments. Some of the people who have posted fall into this category.

- Women who found the negative aspects of pregnancy itself (and/or the anticipated aftermath) to exceed the positive, and for reasons particular to their life circumstances and/or desire to procreate at all, decided to abort the fetus.

I think that it is extremely difficult for women in the first group that I've described, as well as many men, to stomach the "parasite" terminology. For instance, I have had many abortion debates with my mother, who is 'morally' pro-life, and she strongly dislikes my use of the parasite terminology...because she looks at me, and she looks at my sister, and she cannot reconcile us as ever having been "parasites" (although, truth be told...)

So, I can respect that for some people, and in particular some mothers and fathers, actual or potential, they cannot stand to think of the children they have or might parent as being "parasites" - whether or not in utero. I would ask two things of these people.

First, to realize in a clinical, scientific sense, that fetuses are parasites for the reasons described in this thread - but that there is nothing wrong with that. It can be a positive word as well as a negative - I think Teremia made this point.

Second, to realize that many women have had - or anticipate that they would have - a different experience. As I stated in my first post in this thread, I can only attempt to envision how I would feel right now, if I was told right now that I was pregnant. As best as I can force myself to visualize that scenario, I would feel an initial disgust, horror, panic, would subsequently force myself to stay as calm as possible, and immediately walk to the closest abortion provider (fortunately, because of where I live, a 10-15 minute walk, not an hours-long drive).

Recently, I was told by the dentist that I had a cavity that would need to be filled. I was immediately uncomfortable and antsy, until I arrived at my appointment to get it filled. There was something in my tooth - something harmful and negative and unwanted - that needed to be drilled out immediately, so it would not cause any more long-lasting harm to me.

Now, it is blatantly obvious that a fetus is not tooth decay. But, when I envision the possibility of being pregnant, my mind immediately feels that same sense of urgency - make an appointment as soon as possible, to get it out of me as soon as possible. I don't want it there, it shouldn't be there, I didn't give it permission to be there, it shouldn't be in me. If it stays in me, it will change my body for its purposes, and if it comes out of me later, it will change my life for its purposes. GET IT OUT.

These feelings are very strong and real for me.

hal, I am very convinced that for me, it would be as though my body was fighting with the fetus, wanting it OUT of there. The thought of my body changing to protect a fetus that I do not want inside of me fills me with revulsion and horror. The thought of a fetus inside my body is TROUBLESOME and THREATENING, yes. When I think about the possibility, I almost feel as though I can't breathe with the panic - I so intensely never want pregnancy, childbirth, OR children. That's how I feel about a fetus inside my body, and I have the right to assert that using the appropriate language.

There is no one accurate "description of the interaction between mother and child" - the nature of this interaction will, in some part, be defined by the feelings and outlooks of the mother.

I am perfectly willing to respect that for some people, pregnancy is an incredible thing and that they cannot think of the fetuses inside themselves or others as parasites, with a negative connotation intended. I have great respect for them, not least of all because I expect their contributions to the future of the human race will be greater than mine, procreatively speaking. But I insist on the same respect for my own feelings, and for the feelings of others who - in the strongest possible terms - cannot stomach the thought of a fetus inside of their bodies. Our feelings, and our terminology is just as valid.

Just as my feeling that a fetus inside me would be a horrendous parasite does NOT mean that anyone else has to feel that way...I dislike strongly being told that I should feel that a fetus is some sort of wonderful gift, because other people feel that way.

[Teremia]

Here's something truehobbit said on the previous page (on the theme of miscarriages versus losing children after birth):

Not having been through anything of the sort, I also think that it would make a difference at what time you lose a baby, and in my lack of experience I often have a hard time understanding people who grieve a lot about losing what was only a handful of cells, because I also compare it to people losing a child that was actually born.
But fact is that they do grieve! Shouldn't that make us aware that, once you are pregnant, there apparently is an awareness that this is more than a meaningless lump of cells?

I think what that very real grief tells us instead is how much of our sense of "personhood" is tied to our own hopes, dreams, fears, and wishes at those early stages. A late period might mean nothing to one person -- might be a "whew! escaped!" moment to someone else -- and might feel like the end of the world to someone who has been desperately trying to get pregnant and thought This Was It. What a person miscarries loses is not a "clump of cells," nor is it a living child in the sense of the beloved scoundrels running around my house. It's the dream of the living child who might have come. When you are hoping for a child and miscarry, you have to reconstruct the whole future you've constructed so hopefully in your imagination. Your sorrow is about that imagined child, with its imagined curly brown hair and its imagined smile -- not really about the actual "clump of cells" that couldn't make it.

I think one strand one can see throughout many of the posts in this thread -- no matter what point of view they reflect -- is how intimately issues of pregnancy and reproduction are tied up with our deepest hopes and fears. OF COURSE we lash out at each other when we're touched at those deep points! That's very human, seems to me. And if we've established one thing here, it's that all of us are definitely Sentient Persons.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Teremia the Wise!

[JewelSong]

hal, I am very convinced that for me, it would be as though my body was fighting with the fetus, wanting it OUT of there. The thought of my body changing to protect a fetus that I do not want inside of me fills me with revulsion and horror. The thought of a fetus inside my body is TROUBLESOME and THREATENING, yes. When I think about the possibility, I almost feel as though I can't breathe with the panic - I so intensely never want pregnancy, childbirth, OR children. That's how I feel about a fetus inside my body, and I have the right to assert that using the appropriate language.

I have to interject here after TP's excellent post - that I have known women who have felt as TP does and still want to have children. They very much want a family; they love their children...but being pregnant filled them with dread and revulsion and they had to fight the entire pregnancy to stay calm and force themselves to concentate on what (they hoped) the end product would be. Their entire pregnancy was one long panic attack and stifling feelings of "GET IT OUT NOW!"

So it's not a matter of "well, once you decide to have children, you'll feel differently." Because many women don't feel happy about pregnancy. As the guilt these women feel, especially if they want a child - is tremendous, because "real, normal women" just LOVE being pregnant.

Some women DO love being pregnant. (I was one of them!)
Some women tolerate it because they know it is a necessary condition and because they want a baby.
And some women are filled with dread and revulsion the entire time...even if they desperately want the baby. I think these women are very courageous.

[Padme]

I hated being pregnant, have not done it since, not planning to ever again. It was not wonderful or magical or joyful or any of that warm fuzzy stuff. I was uncomfortable, my body hurt, I was sick and carrying twins basically ruined my skin on my stomach. I do however love my kids, sure wish they could have gotten here in a different manner.

[halplm]

I can't help but wonder at people's strong desire to use terminology that is offensive to others, no matter how accurate it is.

To me, that implies motivation other than simple accuracy. I'm not trying to put words into anyones mouth or anything like that, but to me, it seems, once it's established that a term is offensive to some if not many people... politeness would demand that you refrain from using the term in the future.

Unless, of course, that term had other meanings as well that you felt were important enough to continue using it.

[nerdanel]

Teremia,

Excellent post - which explains so clearly how it is all about perspective.

(eta hal, in the b77 discussion, you repeatedly asserted that abortion was murder. If I had asked you to stop on the grounds that I found this characterization offensive, would you have done so, or would you have persisted because you felt it was the most accurate, descriptive term for what you believe(d) abortion to be? If you would have continued, would your motivation have been simply to upset people who find "abortion is murder" offensive, or would you have had another reason for doing so?)

I think that much of the problem in these discussions is that people - male and female alike - have a very pronounced view on pregnancy and children, whether something highly desirable, or something to be strenuously avoided, or somewhere in between. Of course, each person's view on pregnancy becomes the lens through which he or she views the abortion debate. In other abortion discussions which have been successful - and I view the b77 discussion of May 2005 as one of those - people have shown a willingness to sit back and listen, as each participant held up the lens they use, described it, and explained his or her reasons for selecting that particular lens.

The problem arises when the lenses are too far apart for there to be overlap. For some people (as I said, including my own mother), it's simply impossible to understand how anyone can view a fetus - which they believe to have been a child from the moment of conception - as a clump of cells...an unwanted burden...a menacing parasite...something to be removed. That view is so alien that they cannot comprehend or respect it, even if they try (which they are often not disposed to do). For other people, the reverse is true. In those cases, abortion discussions have to end with the participants agreeing to respect each other as people even if they cannot respect each other's opinions. However, for many of us, there is just a smidgen enough of shared experience that we can walk away from these discussions with, to steal some of Teremia's language, a much more real understanding of other people's deepest hopes and fears. And that is why this discussion is so often worth it, even if it brings raw emotion to the surface for so many people.

[Hachimitsu]

I haven't caught up to the last page but I just wanted to say something on wording since just like Hal had said some people do use the N word as a term of endearment.

The wording of some people have used have severely bothered me but I have decided to say nothing. Just like Hobby had said we were all a clump of cells ( those clump of cells just couldn't be inert for them to become a clump of cells in the first place, human cells at that).

I have worked hard not to say anything because I think in part what a part of the problem is a lot of people think every woman in the world will take to motherhood naturally. No matter what they feel before, once they find out they are pregnant or they see their baby they will instantly fall in love with it. It's supposedly natural since in some peoples minds thats what women are made for. Since we are made for it in some peoples minds we should just instantly take to it. Regardless how we feel before. (Some people in my life have used that same thinking for housecleaning :rollseyes:).

But just like guys who do not want to have kids there are lot of women who don't want o have kids either. Contrary to popular beleif ( I don't mean this board) All women do not dream of having kids. Even in the animal kingdom there have constantly been instances where new mothers have abandoned their offspring because their like 'what the heck is this?' I think this is why wording and the whole idea of not wanting a child to some people seem to be so contrary to the whole point of being a woman. I don't think the whole point of being a woman is to have children, that is why woman are capable of doing other things. I have to get off the computer but I will be back soon.

[truehobbit]

Forgive me, Hobby, but this doesn't really makes sense. The word 'parasite' is a perfectly good word with a perfectly good scientific meaning. The other word that you compare it to has no other meaning other then to be a derogatory word directed at people of a certain skin color. It has no meaning without negative connotations, period. While I understand the point that you are making, and support your call for people to be careful in their wording, your analogy does not work.

I think it does work, Voronwë.
In origin, our banned word simply is a sloppy spelling of a word that means "black". Used neutrally, it has a perfectly harmless and factual meaning! (Just like "parasite".) The reason we don't use it, is because the most common usage of it is derogatory and contemptuous. For this reason we are happy to ban it, even at the cost of barring those people who might want to use it neutrally from using it.
In a biology lab, the word "parasite" might be free from any additional meaning, and maybe there really are people who use it as a term of endearment for their loved ones. But by far the most common use has exactly those negative connotations that hal has pointed out.
I therefore think it is merely a question of respect to not describe something that is of value to others with a term that is loaded with hatred and contempt!

I'm sorry to boil this down to a question of semantics, but that's what it is to me. I don't care whether the idea of being pregnant makes you (any woman reader) feel happy or panicky! You are entitled to whatever feelings you have! But I can't help being offended by the use of vocabulary that in all common usage has distasteful connotations, even if you personally tend to use that word differently.

[vison]

Just popping back in to say a couple of things.

First, I didn't leave because I was angry or hurt or any of those things. I left because I said what I had to say and saw no use in arguing further. Particularly when things were getting "heated". I really don't want to burn anyone at the stake, but my "feelings" were making me long to go out in the woods and gather faggots.

Second, I am one of those who HATES the word "parasite". It may indeed be scientifically accurate, but there are many scientific and medical terms that gross me out and that is one. Anyway, I prefer to think of the growing foetus as a "symbiont". Why? Because the pregnancy is beneficial to both organisms -- IN MY OPINION. This is not science, this is FEELING.

Third, it is entirely possible that women who dread the prospect of pregnancy, who think they would run immediately off for an abortion, MIGHT feel differently if it ever happened. I am not making some moral judgement here, my friends, just commenting. Mother Nature is very wise and the pregnancy hormones that flood the woman's body can be very uplifting and pleasant. I certainly found them so.

Fourth, while pregnancy can be sickening (as in morning sickness, which is more like the nausea of Chemotherapy than anything else), can be uncomfortable, (as in, "Oh, how I want to be able to sleep on my stomach again!), can be painful (pressure on spine/pelvis, etc.) in the end, for untold generations of women, including me, we get such a SWELL prize at the end that within seconds of looking into those blue eyes (all babies seem to be born with those "Dune-spice-blue" eyes) the miseries of the previous nine months evaporate.

Fifth, not every woman feels as I do. I recognize and understand that. One of my dearest friends, the mother of two and grandmother of three, hated every second of being pregnant and wasn't crazy about being a mother, either. She loved/loves her kids, but frankly admits that if she could do it over again, she wouldn't. My maternal grandmother had 15 children, one at a time, and she was about the least maternal woman I've ever known, she seemed more like a cat than a woman, able to just . . . . care for the infant and child because she had to, with little emotional investment. When my oldest grandchild was born, my Granny was still alive, and I remember the mix of emotion I felt when Granny, my Mum, I, my oldest son, and the new baby, were setting up to be photographed as 5 generations. Granny held the baby expertly, but she REALLY wasn't interested in him at all. Not the least. Couldn't remember his name - and she wasn't a forgetful old lady. She could remember other things just fine!

Sixth, if you are longing to be pregnant, and miscarry early, why wouldn't you grieve? Of course you would, not so much for what IS, but for what ISN'T going to be.

Seventh, yes, this is drawing to an end, pregnancy and childbirth and parenthood are complicated and painful, no matter how longed for, no matter how welcomed. Only the love of a mother for her child can compensate for the rest, believe me. And not even that, sometimes. I wish everyone could stop and think how much some women want babies and how callous and careless other women can be. This is maybe Mother Nature, but Mother Nature isn't Mother Mary, Mother Nature is bent on reproduction at all costs, it is the one thing she cares for. Love, kindness, compassion, have nothing to do with the hard necessities.

[Teremia]

Well, I went to dictionary.com and I have a proposal:

par·a·site n.
1. (Biology.) An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.
2a. One who habitually takes advantage of the generosity of others without making any useful return.
2b. One who lives off and flatters the rich; a sycophant.
3. A professional dinner guest, especially in ancient Greece.

We shall speak henceforth of the fetus only as a

professional dinner guest, which in fact I guess you could say it is.

"PDG" for short. Meant in the nicest possible way.

[JewelSong]

We shall speak henceforth of the fetus only as a professional dinner guest, which in fact I guess you could say it is.

"PDG" for short. Meant in the nicest possible way.

Teremia!

[Padme]

My grandmother had five kids, right on top of each other, my mother and uncle are....11 months apart. She had her kids and yes she does love them, but I think she did what women of her age did, the expected thing, get married have babies...I think if she had a different choice she would not have had kids at all. How do I know this? The one thing she told all of us grandkids is, 'you don't have to be married or to have kids to be a complete person'. She continually repeated that, still does, but now to my own kids.

I respect women who know they dont want kids and don't have the urge to be mothers and have the courgage to stick to their convictions. I have seen too many kids born to mothers that were not wanted and I have seen the result to the kids.

[Jnyusa]

Thank you, Teremia!

I was just going to enter the thread and ask for two things at this point:

(a) that we agree, and agree without reservation, that those who have used the word parasite have not intended negative connation (except tp, who who was expressing an intensely personal view that is probably held by a great many other women, but does not seem to be held by others in the thread);

(b) that we lay this particular analogy to rest now, because it seems to be a hot button term for a number of people in the thread, and we do get it that repeating a term known to be inflammatory, even if not intended that way, does not advance the cause of the discussion.

And I was hoping to find some other term that we could substitute, and lo! Teremia has found it. Henceforth, when a woman finds herself needing to eat for two, she will be said to be housing a Professional Dinner Guest.

(I hope this is agreeable to everyone. I would hate to see such a great discussion founder on a word.)

As for that other word ...

hal: For some people it's not negative at all (I'm from the south, this I know), simply descriptive.

The n-word used by a Southern White person is merely descriptive? Um .... no.

Hobby, it is not just a sloppy way of speaking the word 'Negro.' It has always been pejorative and exclusively so. At the time when that word was coined, the polite terms were 'Negro' or 'Colored'.

Rap singers use this word to show that they have conquered it. This word is now the exclusive possession of the Black Man, not the White Man, supposedly. But young White people who are fans of Black Rap music have started to use it again, being unaware, I believe, of its provenance. That was the main reason I included it in the word filter - for fear some young n00bie would say it 'innocently.' It is a term so repulsive to me I feel almost physically ill when I read it or hear it spoken, it connotes so much suffering and injustice, not just inflicted on one person but on a whole race of people.

Anyway, back to pregnancy. I wanted children. I really, really wanted children. And the moment my girls were finally out, I was thrilled, and they remain today my best friends and the most positive thing in my life.

Yet when I found out I was pregnant with my oldest, my first emotion was one of betrayal. My body had housed this other being for six weeks WITHOUT TELLING ME. Chickpea #1 really did feel like an alien being inside of me. With chickpea #2 I knew better by then not to expect to be aware of her existence from the moment of conception. But both pregnancies were ordeals for me. I hated being pregnant, even as I was overjoyed to be having a child. Jewel voiced my feelings exactly. We need to find a better way of getting new people into the world!

The upside of feeling the separateness of this being was that I felt my children to be autonomous persons from the moment I knew of their existence, and that conviction has never left me. I think I was a better mother for that.

Jn

[JewelSong]

Jewel voiced my feelings exactly. We need to find a better way of getting new people into the world!

Hey - that wasn't me! I'm the one who loved being preggers!

[Jnyusa]

Sorry, Jewel. I think you were referring to other women you knew? Or else I got your post mixed up with someone else's. Anyhoo ... pregnancy is not delightful for everyone, but wanting to have children and wanting to be pregnant are two different things.

jn

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Thank you, Teremia!

I was just going to enter the thread and ask for two things at this point:

(a) that we agree, and agree without reservation, that those who have used the word parasite have not intended negative connation (except tp, who who was expressing an intensely personal view that is probably held by a great many other women, but does not seem to be held by others in the thread);

(b) that we lay this particular analogy to rest now, because it seems to be a hot button term for a number of people in the thread, and we do get it that repeating a term known to be inflammatory, even if not intended that way, does not advance the cause of the discussion.

And I was hoping to find some other term that we could substitute, and lo! Teremia has found it. Henceforth, when a woman finds herself needing to eat for two, she will be said to be housing a Professional Dinner Guest.

(I hope this is agreeable to everyone. I would hate to see such a great discussion founder on a word.)

Jn, I agree that we should put the analogy aside and request that people refrain from using the word "parasite" in this context out of respect for the fact that a number of people find it extremely distasteful (certainly if halplm, hobby and vison all agree on something, it is something worth paying attention to ). And I appreciate Teremia's wise and kind attempt to interject some needed humour into the discussion. However, I have to say that the term she suggested, professional dinner guest, hardly evokes the horror that literally millions of women feel upon learning that they are pregnant. I know it is not anyone's intention to make light of what these women face (regardless of whether abortion is available or not), but I feel it is important enough to reiterate the truth of that statement. Because any longterm solution of the abortion question is going to have to involve finding a way to change that stark reality. And that, my friends, is only going to be accomplished through a worldwide economic and political revolution.

[Hachimitsu]

*****Disclaimer*******
***I say a lot of things in this post and I mean it in the general societal or polital sense. I do not mean it as any kind of directional comment to anyone on this board.***

To finally try and answer the Roe vs. Wade issue, if it is overturned will they then make it easier for families to adopt? I have been quite disturbed by TP's post that they are taking away adoption rights from gay couples. There is a tendency for gay couples to take or foster children other people usually would not wish to foster or adopt. Where will all these unwanted babies go? ( No government against abortion ever seems to answer that.)

Will they improve the foster care system? Beacuse it's pretty screwed up. I have met several peoplke who have been through foster care some have had positive loving experiences but most have had traumatic experiences. There needs to be more attentive social workers and less overworked burnout jaded social workers.

Will they improve sex education to prevent people from getting pregnant in the first place? ( I also wish for younger ages there were classes on relationships, there are so many naive and vulnerable teenagers who think if they have sex with someone it will make their object of affection love them.) The quality of sex education varies with the teacher. For my sis she had a gym teacher who was too scared to say the official names for female reproductive organs. I know it can be an uncomfortable to some and feel it should not be something that shouldn't be discussed ( since to some people it may seem distatseful) but to be very very honest talking about sex really one of the best ways to reduce the number of people seeking abortion. If people feel that teenagers can't be trusted behind the wheel since to some teenagers are reckless, imagine them dealing with the thought of abortion. I have met a person who did basically consider abortion as a form of birth control through her teen years. Most of the time teenagers do reckless things (like regularly getting drunk and shacking up) is because frankly they just don't know the consequences.

Are they going build infrastructure to make it less stressful/ costly to have kids, like affordable childcare? There are people who abort simply because they can't afford another kid.

What about societal stigma for being a single parent? A lot of the time they end up victims of societal scorn. Rather then thinking 'gee they didn't abort', many many people blame them for all of society's ills.
(In a Gilmore Gilrs discussion thread on B77 I pointed out that in many respects the town they live in is a fantasy because I have never witnessd a town that supportive of a single teenage mother.)

What about single mothers? Sometimes the guy just runs away!! What about forced abortion? Sometimes a woman has to seek an abortion because a partner is forcing them to. If they have a baby their spouse or boyfriend could leave them. They could be driven to a dangerous back alley abortion to keep a man happy. I think it really needs to be stressed that reproductive (and sexual) decisions can't be forced on a woman either way. ( Maybe another thing to teach in a relationship class eh?)

Overturning Roe vs. Wade is just going to drive reproductive freedom to reproductive dictatorship. I guess some people just don't like the idea of reproductive freedom since for some it is up to God. (For me I am pro life but not primarily for religious reasons.)

I am very concerned that overturning the decision isn't really about saving the unborn. It's about controlling women and 'helping' them see and fulfill their 'true reason for being' which in several peoples minds is having as many children as possible. That I think is cruelty. I think on a political point of view (politicians are mostly men) that it's a group of people trying to get control over something that really isn't theirs to control. Sometimes when it's something so far out of a persons grasp or control they try harder to justify their need to control it.

Sometimes when I hear some of the anti abortion republicans they characterize women as very conniving evil creatures which can't be trusted and shouldn't be making decisions about their (as in the politicians) child. ( Maybe as Jynusa pointed out it's a property issue, that is the only way I can see it jive with the republican ideology)
I have never seen an aniti-abortion politician who wants to make abortion illegal acknowledge that it is forcing someone to make a bodily sacrifice and saddling them with at least 18 years of responsibility they don't want.

Would they make laws to make it easier for a father to get full custody? It could be a father wants a baby desperately and the mother wants nothing to do with it and had the baby because they were forced to. Or will they treat the mother like a child and say she dosen't really know what she wants? There is so much societal pressure. For some a woman who gives up parental rights is seen in not a very postive light.

I know Voronwë had suggested terms like idealist and realist and some people didn't like that idea but really that in part what comes into play. The harsh reality is it's very very very difficult being a mother, particularly a single mother. Also, it needs to be acknowledged that there are women in the world who frankly just don't want kids!! Don't want to see them, hear them or have anything to do with them. That needs to be acknowledged.

Me myself and I although I don't agree with abortion I ain't gonna have 5 kids. Especially, just to help some politician feel in control of something that is not theirs to control in the first place. It's just not going happen, no matter how much other people think it will make my life better.

Edit to add clarity.