Cerin, I just wanted to mention (because I can see how the thought horrifies you) that frozen embryos are not kept "forever." After a certain number of years, they're destroyed. They're only kept because they might someday be implanted, and after a certain point that is no longer possible.
I'm not defending the practice. I'm not sure how I feel about it, frankly.
Roe v Wade has been overturned. How do you feel about that?
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Primula Baggins
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“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
Thank you, Prim. 
My understanding is that quite a few people are squeamish about having them destroyed, so they just go on being kept and kept.
Protesting abortion but not protesting these fertility practices, that's one of the inconsistencies that I don't understand.
My understanding is that quite a few people are squeamish about having them destroyed, so they just go on being kept and kept.
Protesting abortion but not protesting these fertility practices, that's one of the inconsistencies that I don't understand.
Last edited by Cerin on Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
I don't hold you in disdain, Sass. Even at my angriest earlier I never did. That may not matter ... I may have burned my bridges in my anger. I have no idea what I would think of your moral conclusions. I don't think it's really for me to say.
I have never held anyone who had an abortion in disdain, just to be clear about that again. I was very upset about the characterization of a fetus as a parasite. I held that statement in disdain. Does the statement equal the person? Does the point of view equal the person? I don't think so, but perhaps it's close enough to not matter.
What about it, my anger at the characterization of a fetus as a parasite? Well, I'll let Cerin have the last word on that. By which I mean I'll just say that I can't really know and leave it at that. I really question the wisdom of always avoiding saying things about topics that "one hasn't experienced" but in this case it may well be the only way to proceed. So, I won't get upset by the various characterizations of a foetus. I'm not disdainful of all these perspectives that to be honest are alien to me. That doesn't make them wrong. I'll even spell "foetus" your way, if you like.
I hope this last paragraph sort of answers your post as well, Ethel.
I have never held anyone who had an abortion in disdain, just to be clear about that again. I was very upset about the characterization of a fetus as a parasite. I held that statement in disdain. Does the statement equal the person? Does the point of view equal the person? I don't think so, but perhaps it's close enough to not matter.
What about it, my anger at the characterization of a fetus as a parasite? Well, I'll let Cerin have the last word on that. By which I mean I'll just say that I can't really know and leave it at that. I really question the wisdom of always avoiding saying things about topics that "one hasn't experienced" but in this case it may well be the only way to proceed. So, I won't get upset by the various characterizations of a foetus. I'm not disdainful of all these perspectives that to be honest are alien to me. That doesn't make them wrong. I'll even spell "foetus" your way, if you like.
I hope this last paragraph sort of answers your post as well, Ethel.
I think the reason people object to the catorization of a fetus as a parasite is that it can just as easily be seen as the mother's body adjusting to protect the child. It's a matter of how people view the unborn child. If it's something desireable, it's to be protected, if it's undesireable, it's to be despised.
you don't protect a parasite, you despise it.
You don't despise the child you want, you protect it.
You can say a mother's body is changed by the child, but you can just as easily say the mothers' body CHANGES FOR the child.
you don't protect a parasite, you despise it.
You don't despise the child you want, you protect it.
You can say a mother's body is changed by the child, but you can just as easily say the mothers' body CHANGES FOR the child.
But fetuses, if not spontaneously or otherwise aborted, eventually become babies. So, Faramond, I understand your anger and distress. I understand everyone's point of view on this. I really do. It's hard to think about, and hard to judge rightly about. It's about as gray as a gray area can be.
One extreme is to decide that, from the moment a sperm fertilizes an egg, there is a human being. You don't meet too many single celled humans in everyday life, but it's a logically attractive point of view.
The other extreme is to decide that, until it comes out that birth canal, it's not a human being. This too is logically attractive - it's simple and straightforward, and doesn't involve a lot of mulling over just when the brainstem appears.
I find simplicity attractive, but I cannot subscribe to either point of view.
One extreme is to decide that, from the moment a sperm fertilizes an egg, there is a human being. You don't meet too many single celled humans in everyday life, but it's a logically attractive point of view.
The other extreme is to decide that, until it comes out that birth canal, it's not a human being. This too is logically attractive - it's simple and straightforward, and doesn't involve a lot of mulling over just when the brainstem appears.
I find simplicity attractive, but I cannot subscribe to either point of view.
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Sassafras
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Faramond ....I don't hold you in disdain, Sass. Even at my angriest earlier I never did. That may not matter ... I may have burned my bridges in my anger
Not with me, you haven't. That's what I was trying to say.
As for the other, I do not aplogise for what I wrote because all I was doing was stating a biological fact and I attatch no negative emotional significance to the term ... but you do and I regret the obvious distress I have caused you.
We cannot all always agree on all the volitile issues that confront us. The best we can do is make an honest attempt to understand the other side. Not accept: for to be sure my mind is quite made up ... but I can at least try to see things from a different perspective.
Not with me, you haven't. That's what I was trying to say.
As for the other, I do not aplogise for what I wrote because all I was doing was stating a biological fact and I attatch no negative emotional significance to the term ... but you do and I regret the obvious distress I have caused you.
We cannot all always agree on all the volitile issues that confront us. The best we can do is make an honest attempt to understand the other side. Not accept: for to be sure my mind is quite made up ... but I can at least try to see things from a different perspective.
Ever mindful of the maxim that brevity is the soul of wit, axordil sums up the Sil:
"Too many Fingolfins, not enough Sams."
Yes.
I hestitate to enter this discussion again, but oh well.halplm wrote:you don't protect a parasite, you despise it.
Not all parasites are bad (Leeches are used to promote healing in hospitals. We have ecoli bacteria in our stomach which we need for digestion...just a couple of examples). You are assigning negative emotions to a scientific act based on the idea that all parasites are bad.
Honestly, the people who have used the term have been using it scientifically. They aren't trying to assign any negative connotations or equate a foetus with anything nasty. (Btw, I never said a foetus is a cancer...it was an analogy...a comparison...something new and different coming into your body...the only example I could think of that would apply to men. If there is a better example, please someone give it ). It's the people reacting to the term who are bringing the negativity in and assuming ill intent where there is none. I won't use the term ever again though since it upsets some people here so much.
In the longish post explaining how an unborn child is like a parasite, all the wording was as if the child was attacking the mother, stealing from it, altering the mothers body to suit its neads.
That imagery and language is negative. It implies the mother is fighting with the child.
On the other hand, it oculd be seen as the mother's body changing to protect the child, offering the child nourishment first to help it survive, giving live to it.
That imagery and language is posative. It implies the mother is nurturing the child.
You can use either way to describe it, and you can be right, and scientific, and thouroughly accurate. One shows the child as something good and wanted. The other shows the child as something troublesome and threatening.
That's why people object to it. That's all I'm saying. We're not objecting because we think it's an inaccurate description of the interaction between mother and child... only the way that description is characterized, and leads to characterizations of what it means to be pregnant.
That imagery and language is negative. It implies the mother is fighting with the child.
On the other hand, it oculd be seen as the mother's body changing to protect the child, offering the child nourishment first to help it survive, giving live to it.
That imagery and language is posative. It implies the mother is nurturing the child.
You can use either way to describe it, and you can be right, and scientific, and thouroughly accurate. One shows the child as something good and wanted. The other shows the child as something troublesome and threatening.
That's why people object to it. That's all I'm saying. We're not objecting because we think it's an inaccurate description of the interaction between mother and child... only the way that description is characterized, and leads to characterizations of what it means to be pregnant.
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Impenitent
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In my "longish post explaining how the unborn child is like a parasite" (if that's the one Hal was remembering -- but there may have been several already) I said the following:
I think we can admit a fetus behaves -- naturally! effectively! wonderfully! -- like a parasite without being negative about it.
I also wanted to say that even people who on principle claim to be absolutely for the woman's right to choose abortion no matter when and no matter why AND the people who on principle claim to feel that a fertilized egg is no different from a living, breathing, toddling child tend to behave in practice rather differently.
In practice, we mostly seem to feel that the farther along in development the fetus is, the greater a tragedy it is when it dies. I have been devastated by an early miscarriage -- heck, I've wept my eyes out over six-celled embryos that didn't "take" -- but I would never in a million years set my losses against the terrible loss of a friend of mine, whose baby died at birth. Something in me understands that a full-term infant is a different order of being than that six-celled embryo. I submit that most of us feel this way, whatever our principles.
Notice the "hurrah"!It's not that it "feels" like the fetus is sucking its life-blood from you, it really is! And, for the most part, hurrah!
I think we can admit a fetus behaves -- naturally! effectively! wonderfully! -- like a parasite without being negative about it.
I also wanted to say that even people who on principle claim to be absolutely for the woman's right to choose abortion no matter when and no matter why AND the people who on principle claim to feel that a fertilized egg is no different from a living, breathing, toddling child tend to behave in practice rather differently.
In practice, we mostly seem to feel that the farther along in development the fetus is, the greater a tragedy it is when it dies. I have been devastated by an early miscarriage -- heck, I've wept my eyes out over six-celled embryos that didn't "take" -- but I would never in a million years set my losses against the terrible loss of a friend of mine, whose baby died at birth. Something in me understands that a full-term infant is a different order of being than that six-celled embryo. I submit that most of us feel this way, whatever our principles.
That is completely true Teremia. As I said before, if I had to draw a line in the sand, it would be when the child becomes aware. "I think, therefore I am" is a pretty good guideline here.
Perhaps someone can clarify this for me. What are we talking about here? 6 weeks? 8? 12? At what stage are we talking about a child who could live (with assistance) outside the womb? 20 weeks? Earlier?
Can someone provide a scientific, no-nonsense timeline for us.
EDITED TO ADD:
I've concentrated on weeks 8 to 20 since they seem to be the timeline wuithin which most people draw the line. Here's what I've found:
Week 8:
By the end of the week, your baby will be between 8-11mm. At that stage, the brain will be clearly visible and the gonads will have developed into either testes or ovaries. The digestive system continues to develop; the intestines are growing longer and the anus is formed. Bone formation starts this week, and elbow joints and toe rays will start to be visible. The fingers and toes are just beginning to form this week and the arms can flex at the elbows and wrists. In addition, more facial developments such as the formation of the tip of the nose and the upper lip take place, and flaps of skin over the eyes begin to shape into eyelids. Blood begins to flow through a rudimentary circulatory system. Watch out for your baby's spontaneous movement!
Week 10:
Baby's toes and ears as well as the upper lip are formed now. The external genitalia will start to develop this week. And if you're pregnant with a boy, his testes will begin to produce the male hormone, testosterone. Other internal developments are happening, too. The tooth buds are forming inside baby's mouth. By the end of the week, baby's vital organs will have been formed and will start to work. The baby's brain growth will quickly increase - in fact, some 250,000 new neurons will be produced inside baby's brain every minute! After this week, it is unlikely that any congenital abnormalities will develop. Your baby can now be officially called a fetus, as Week 10 ends the developmental stage called the embryonic period.
Week 12:
Now that you are 12 weeks pregnant, your baby already weighs 14 grams, has reflexes and because of muscular development, can even move its limbs! You would now be able to hear your baby's heart beat with the aid of a Doppler, which your practitioner should have. Your baby's heart rate will be very fast, at about 160 beats per minute. You'll also now notice a face profile, complete with a tiny chin and nose. The baby is now able to swallow, and its tiny fingernails and toenails are forming.
Week 14:
Now that you are 14 weeks pregnant, amazing things are happening between your baby and the amniotic fluid. This week, your baby has begun to urinate into the amniotic fluid. This means the amniotic fluid has to replenish itself about every three hours. For this reason, it’s vital that you drink lots of fluids to ensure a clean and happy womb. Your baby’s lungs are also ‘working’—they are ‘breathing’ in the amniotic fluid. Baby's hair is sprouting on the head, including fine little eyebrows. Lanugo, that fine, dark hair that grows all over your baby’s body in order to protect the skin, also starts to grow this week. Lanugo will continue growing until just prior to delivery. There are also some reproductive developments taking place in your womb. For those who are pregnant with boys, the prostate gland is developing; while for those who are having girls, the ovaries are descending down from the abdomen and into the pelvis. And, hormone production starts because the thyroid gland has now matured.
Week 16
Now that you are 16 weeks pregnant, you may start to feel the baby moving around inside you now. These movements are becoming more coordinated. Your baby can hold his or her head erect, and the development of facial muscles allows for a variety of expressions such as squinting and frowning. Some new mothers don't realize what they are feeling is actually the baby moving about.
Around the 16th to 18th week of pregnancy, your health care provider will likely offer you the maternal blood screening test, also known as a "triple marker" test or a "triple screen," which measures the levels of alpha-fetoprotein (AFP), a protein produced by the fetus, and the pregnancy hormones hCG and estriol in the mother's blood. The results of the triple marker test can tell moms whether their babies are at risk for (not whether they have) neural tube defects such as spina bifida or chromosomal abnormalities such as Down syndrome.
Your baby is weighs about 2.8 ounces (80 grams) and measures about 4.6 inches (116 mm) in length. The ears have moved from the neck area to the head. Your baby is emptying her bladder about every 30-45 minutes now. The sex can now be determined by an ultrasound. More calcium is deposited on your baby's bones as the skeleton continues to develop. Lastly, if your baby is female, millions of eggs, or ova, form in her ovaries this week.
Week 18:
Now that you are 18 weeks pregnant, your baby will be about 20 cm in length and some 7 ounces in weight. Baby's bones are still hardening. Finger prints will begin forming shortly, as the finger and toe pads are now formed. The bones of the inner ear and the nerve endings from the brain have developed enough so that your baby can hear sounds such as your heartbeat and the blood moving through the umbilical cord. He or she may even be startled by loud noises.
Your baby's eyes are developing too. The retinas may be able to detect the beam of a flashlight if you hold it to your uterus. Baby now can also swallow and could even glog down up to a liter of amniotic fluid throughout the day.
Week 20:
You are now 20 weeks pregnant and the fetus now weighs about 9 ounces (260 grams) and measures 5.5 to 6.3 inches (14 to 16cm) from crown to rump. The baby's growth is taking up increasing room in the uterus. This continuing growth will put pressure on the mother's lungs, stomach, bladder, and kidneys. Under the vernix caseosa (a protective, creamy coating), your baby's skin is thickening and developing layers, including the dermis, epidermis, and subcutaneous layer. Hair and nail growth continues this week
Perhaps someone can clarify this for me. What are we talking about here? 6 weeks? 8? 12? At what stage are we talking about a child who could live (with assistance) outside the womb? 20 weeks? Earlier?
Can someone provide a scientific, no-nonsense timeline for us.
EDITED TO ADD:
I've concentrated on weeks 8 to 20 since they seem to be the timeline wuithin which most people draw the line. Here's what I've found:
Week 8:
By the end of the week, your baby will be between 8-11mm. At that stage, the brain will be clearly visible and the gonads will have developed into either testes or ovaries. The digestive system continues to develop; the intestines are growing longer and the anus is formed. Bone formation starts this week, and elbow joints and toe rays will start to be visible. The fingers and toes are just beginning to form this week and the arms can flex at the elbows and wrists. In addition, more facial developments such as the formation of the tip of the nose and the upper lip take place, and flaps of skin over the eyes begin to shape into eyelids. Blood begins to flow through a rudimentary circulatory system. Watch out for your baby's spontaneous movement!
Week 10:
Baby's toes and ears as well as the upper lip are formed now. The external genitalia will start to develop this week. And if you're pregnant with a boy, his testes will begin to produce the male hormone, testosterone. Other internal developments are happening, too. The tooth buds are forming inside baby's mouth. By the end of the week, baby's vital organs will have been formed and will start to work. The baby's brain growth will quickly increase - in fact, some 250,000 new neurons will be produced inside baby's brain every minute! After this week, it is unlikely that any congenital abnormalities will develop. Your baby can now be officially called a fetus, as Week 10 ends the developmental stage called the embryonic period.
Week 12:
Now that you are 12 weeks pregnant, your baby already weighs 14 grams, has reflexes and because of muscular development, can even move its limbs! You would now be able to hear your baby's heart beat with the aid of a Doppler, which your practitioner should have. Your baby's heart rate will be very fast, at about 160 beats per minute. You'll also now notice a face profile, complete with a tiny chin and nose. The baby is now able to swallow, and its tiny fingernails and toenails are forming.
Week 14:
Now that you are 14 weeks pregnant, amazing things are happening between your baby and the amniotic fluid. This week, your baby has begun to urinate into the amniotic fluid. This means the amniotic fluid has to replenish itself about every three hours. For this reason, it’s vital that you drink lots of fluids to ensure a clean and happy womb. Your baby’s lungs are also ‘working’—they are ‘breathing’ in the amniotic fluid. Baby's hair is sprouting on the head, including fine little eyebrows. Lanugo, that fine, dark hair that grows all over your baby’s body in order to protect the skin, also starts to grow this week. Lanugo will continue growing until just prior to delivery. There are also some reproductive developments taking place in your womb. For those who are pregnant with boys, the prostate gland is developing; while for those who are having girls, the ovaries are descending down from the abdomen and into the pelvis. And, hormone production starts because the thyroid gland has now matured.
Week 16
Now that you are 16 weeks pregnant, you may start to feel the baby moving around inside you now. These movements are becoming more coordinated. Your baby can hold his or her head erect, and the development of facial muscles allows for a variety of expressions such as squinting and frowning. Some new mothers don't realize what they are feeling is actually the baby moving about.
Around the 16th to 18th week of pregnancy, your health care provider will likely offer you the maternal blood screening test, also known as a "triple marker" test or a "triple screen," which measures the levels of alpha-fetoprotein (AFP), a protein produced by the fetus, and the pregnancy hormones hCG and estriol in the mother's blood. The results of the triple marker test can tell moms whether their babies are at risk for (not whether they have) neural tube defects such as spina bifida or chromosomal abnormalities such as Down syndrome.
Your baby is weighs about 2.8 ounces (80 grams) and measures about 4.6 inches (116 mm) in length. The ears have moved from the neck area to the head. Your baby is emptying her bladder about every 30-45 minutes now. The sex can now be determined by an ultrasound. More calcium is deposited on your baby's bones as the skeleton continues to develop. Lastly, if your baby is female, millions of eggs, or ova, form in her ovaries this week.
Week 18:
Now that you are 18 weeks pregnant, your baby will be about 20 cm in length and some 7 ounces in weight. Baby's bones are still hardening. Finger prints will begin forming shortly, as the finger and toe pads are now formed. The bones of the inner ear and the nerve endings from the brain have developed enough so that your baby can hear sounds such as your heartbeat and the blood moving through the umbilical cord. He or she may even be startled by loud noises.
Your baby's eyes are developing too. The retinas may be able to detect the beam of a flashlight if you hold it to your uterus. Baby now can also swallow and could even glog down up to a liter of amniotic fluid throughout the day.
Week 20:
You are now 20 weeks pregnant and the fetus now weighs about 9 ounces (260 grams) and measures 5.5 to 6.3 inches (14 to 16cm) from crown to rump. The baby's growth is taking up increasing room in the uterus. This continuing growth will put pressure on the mother's lungs, stomach, bladder, and kidneys. Under the vernix caseosa (a protective, creamy coating), your baby's skin is thickening and developing layers, including the dermis, epidermis, and subcutaneous layer. Hair and nail growth continues this week
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Primula Baggins
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Two "timeline" points of interest:
It's rare for a baby born before 24 or 25 weeks to survive. The lungs are not sufficiently developed. Unless some kind of artificial womb is developed, the threshold for premature survival probably can't move much earlier into the pregnancy than it has now.
At any point up to about 14 days after conception, the embryo can divide into twins. Some people believe this means the soul can't be present before then (because two babies with individual souls will eventually be born from what was one embryo). This division actually occurs more often than the incidence of twins, because one embryo is often lost soon after (and no one ever knows it happened).
It's rare for a baby born before 24 or 25 weeks to survive. The lungs are not sufficiently developed. Unless some kind of artificial womb is developed, the threshold for premature survival probably can't move much earlier into the pregnancy than it has now.
At any point up to about 14 days after conception, the embryo can divide into twins. Some people believe this means the soul can't be present before then (because two babies with individual souls will eventually be born from what was one embryo). This division actually occurs more often than the incidence of twins, because one embryo is often lost soon after (and no one ever knows it happened).
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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truehobbit
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Ethel, good posts! 
We may die before we are born, we certainly die after we are born.
The clump of cells you are talking about may not yet have memories and experiences of interaction with other humans. But technically speaking, we are not all that much different from it, I think.
I wouldn't have thought I'd ever say it (
), but I think hal has it right about the meaning of "parasite".
I realise that people don't mean to use the word in the way it is commonly used. I believe everybody who says they don't mean it. But that doesn't help me in the way I read that word!
Look at the word "n*gger", which we have banned (sorry for using it like that - I hope it's ok this once for the purpose). Apparently, the possibility that someone uses the word without any negative connotations didn't change our minds about it. Personally, I really think it's possible that someone should use that word innocently. But if they did, others would get upset, and we'd have a lot of "but I didn't mean it that way" - "but to me it does mean just that", etc, just like we have here - and I think we are all agreed that for this reason it's better not to use the word at all. That's why I think people should watch what they say for offensive wording!
I don't mean to criticise, I think your post and trying to understand what we are really talking about is great!
But what do you mean by "aware" - aware of what? It seems you mean "able to think independently and be aware of the fact that it is thinking". Even if you don't have such a jaded view of mankind as I do, I think this condition you speak of isn't reached before a person is several years old.
So, how about killing a child right after birth? Is that ok? Surely, it's not aware of anything then, so it's not really human.
I think Teremia raised an interesting point.
Not having been through anything of the sort, I also think that it would make a difference at what time you lose a baby, and in my lack of experience I often have a hard time understanding people who grieve a lot about losing what was only a handful of cells, because I also compare it to people losing a child that was actually born.
But fact is that they do grieve! Shouldn't that make us aware that, once you are pregnant, there apparently is an awareness that this is more than a meaningless lump of cells?
But aren't we all just a clump of cells? And a clump of cells that finally gets aborted by nature, too!I can't get myself to believe that a clump of cells is the same thing as a human being. The more so as that clump of cells is very frequently aborted by nature.
We may die before we are born, we certainly die after we are born.The clump of cells you are talking about may not yet have memories and experiences of interaction with other humans. But technically speaking, we are not all that much different from it, I think.
I wouldn't have thought I'd ever say it (
), but I think hal has it right about the meaning of "parasite". I realise that people don't mean to use the word in the way it is commonly used. I believe everybody who says they don't mean it. But that doesn't help me in the way I read that word!
Look at the word "n*gger", which we have banned (sorry for using it like that - I hope it's ok this once for the purpose). Apparently, the possibility that someone uses the word without any negative connotations didn't change our minds about it. Personally, I really think it's possible that someone should use that word innocently. But if they did, others would get upset, and we'd have a lot of "but I didn't mean it that way" - "but to me it does mean just that", etc, just like we have here - and I think we are all agreed that for this reason it's better not to use the word at all. That's why I think people should watch what they say for offensive wording!
LOL, I think you've just deprived half the human race of human status, Alatar!As I said before, if I had to draw a line in the sand, it would be when the child becomes aware. "I think, therefore I am" is a pretty good guideline here.
I don't mean to criticise, I think your post and trying to understand what we are really talking about is great!
But what do you mean by "aware" - aware of what? It seems you mean "able to think independently and be aware of the fact that it is thinking". Even if you don't have such a jaded view of mankind as I do, I think this condition you speak of isn't reached before a person is several years old.
So, how about killing a child right after birth? Is that ok? Surely, it's not aware of anything then, so it's not really human.
I think Teremia raised an interesting point.
Not having been through anything of the sort, I also think that it would make a difference at what time you lose a baby, and in my lack of experience I often have a hard time understanding people who grieve a lot about losing what was only a handful of cells, because I also compare it to people losing a child that was actually born.
But fact is that they do grieve! Shouldn't that make us aware that, once you are pregnant, there apparently is an awareness that this is more than a meaningless lump of cells?
but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed.
Alatar, thanks very much for posting that. I was thinking earlier that we ought to be able to rely on some scientific differentiators, if religious beliefs about the 'soul' are taken out of the equation, and it was very helpful to read your post.
It is interesting that even after the fetus is visibly human (as a species) it will still go through phylogenetic changes, e.g. develop and discard gill slits. Personally I don't believe in a 'soul' as something inserted into our bodies from 'out there,' but if I believed in such a soul I would be inclined to insert it after those kinds of changes have concluded ...
Why? Because ... I guess because if I believed in that package of special creation and souls and such, it would be a way for me to reconcile that with what I know from science. One only has to look at fetal development to know that our physical bodies evolved from things that were pre-human, but at some point we are decisively human, and if there were a God who wanted to single us out it makes the most sense to me that it would happen when we reached the point of being what we are now ... and nothing else. You know?
But I don't actually believe in those things so I don't know whether that would make sense to a religious person or not.
Jn
It is interesting that even after the fetus is visibly human (as a species) it will still go through phylogenetic changes, e.g. develop and discard gill slits. Personally I don't believe in a 'soul' as something inserted into our bodies from 'out there,' but if I believed in such a soul I would be inclined to insert it after those kinds of changes have concluded ...
Why? Because ... I guess because if I believed in that package of special creation and souls and such, it would be a way for me to reconcile that with what I know from science. One only has to look at fetal development to know that our physical bodies evolved from things that were pre-human, but at some point we are decisively human, and if there were a God who wanted to single us out it makes the most sense to me that it would happen when we reached the point of being what we are now ... and nothing else. You know?
But I don't actually believe in those things so I don't know whether that would make sense to a religious person or not.
Jn
A fool's paradise is a wise man's hell.
Peter Singer, a famous ethicist (and animal rights activist) proposed that the morality of killing a being is directly proportional to its desire to be alive. I find that proposition very interesting.But what do you mean by "aware" - aware of what? It seems you mean "able to think independently and be aware of the fact that it is thinking". Even if you don't have such a jaded view of mankind as I do, I think this condition you speak of isn't reached before a person is several years old.
So, how about killing a child right after birth? Is that ok? Surely, it's not aware of anything then, so it's not really human.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
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Where did you see that Jny? I'm assuming you mean the bit about breathing amniotic fluid? If so, there are no gills involved. The lungs simply extract oxygen directly from the fluid in the lungs. In the movie "the Abyss" there were experimental Deep Sea Diving tanks which operated on the same principle that I believe were based on fact.Jnyusa wrote: It is interesting that even after the fetus is visibly human (as a species) it will still go through phylogenetic changes, e.g. develop and discard gill slits.
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No, I didn't take that from your post, Alatar, but from my own reading up on fetal development while I was pregnant. I was curious, as we all are, about this chickpea growing inside of me, and it was mysterious, shocking, and awe-inspiring to learn that this child carries forward the potential of all its ancestors ... or many of them, at least.
Jn
Jn
A fool's paradise is a wise man's hell.
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Primula Baggins
- Living in hope
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Couple of things:
The embryo/fetus is always entirely human as far as its DNA is concerned; it can't develop into anything else if it develops normally at all.
Although the fully developed unborn baby "breathes" amniotic fluid, all its oxygen comes through the placenta, directly into its blood. The "breathing" is just a reflex and doesn't provide oxygen. The fluids breathed by deep-sea divers are special chemicals loaded with dissolved oxygen. Amniotic fluid is mostly just salt water (and fetal urine).
The embryo/fetus is always entirely human as far as its DNA is concerned; it can't develop into anything else if it develops normally at all.
Although the fully developed unborn baby "breathes" amniotic fluid, all its oxygen comes through the placenta, directly into its blood. The "breathing" is just a reflex and doesn't provide oxygen. The fluids breathed by deep-sea divers are special chemicals loaded with dissolved oxygen. Amniotic fluid is mostly just salt water (and fetal urine).
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Voronwë the Faithful
- At the intersection of here and now
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Forgive me, Hobby, but this doesn't really makes sense. The word 'parasite' is a perfectly good word with a perfectly good scientific meaning. The other word that you compare it to has no other meaning other then to be a derogatory word directed at people of a certain skin color. It has no meaning without negative connotations, period. While I understand the point that you are making, and support your call for people to be careful in their wording, your analogy does not work.Look at the word "n*gger", which we have banned (sorry for using it like that - I hope it's ok this once for the purpose). Apparently, the possibility that someone uses the word without any negative connotations didn't change our minds about it. Personally, I really think it's possible that someone should use that word innocently. But if they did, others would get upset, and we'd have a lot of "but I didn't mean it that way" - "but to me it does mean just that", etc, just like we have here - and I think we are all agreed that for this reason it's better not to use the word at all. That's why I think people should watch what they say for offensive wording!
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."