The Book of Job as a source of JOY seems to me an interesting twist. And THE BROTHERS KARAMAZOV takes up the question of whether earthly suffering (or, most specifically, whether the body of a seemingly saintly man begins to stink, as ordinary mortal bodies do, after death) signifies God's displeasure/punishment. Human beings are shown as eager to read the good and bad things that happen to people in life as signs of their worth or sinfulness: a flawed approach, as Dostoevsky and Job more or less agree."But I remember how, even before I learned to read, a certain spiritual perception visited me for the first time, when I was just eight years old. Mother took me to church by myself (I do not remember where my brother was then), during Holy Week, to the Monday liturgy. It was a clear day, and, remembering it now, I seem to see again the incense rising from the censer and quietly ascending upwards, and from above, through a narrow window in the cupola, God's rays pouring down upon us in the church, and the incense rising up to them in waves, as if dissolving into them. I looked with deep tenderness, and for the first time in my life I consciously received the first seed of the word of God in my soul. A young man walked out into the middle of the church with a big book, so big that it seemed to me he even had difficulty carrying it, and he placed it on the analogion, opened it, and began to read, and suddenly, then, for the first time I understood something, for the first time in my life I understood what was read in God's church. There was a man in the land of Uz, rightful and pious, and he had so much wealth, so any camels, so many sheep and asses, and his children made merry, and he loved them very much and beseeched God for them: for it may be that they have sinned in their merrymaking. Now Satan goes up before God together with the sons of God, and says to the Lord that he has walked all over the earth and under the earth. 'And have you seen my servant Job?' God asks him. And God boasted before Satan, pointing to his great and holy servant. And Satan smiled at God's words: 'Hand him over to me and you shall see that your servant will begin to murmur and will curse your name.' And God handed over his righteous man, whom he loved so, to Satan, and Satan smote his children and his cattle, and scattered his wealth, all suddenly, as if with divine lightning, and Job rent his garments and threw himself to the ground and cried out: 'Naked came I out of my other's womb, and naked shall I return into the earth: the Lord gave and the Lord has taken away: blessed be the name of the Lord henceforth and forevermore!' Fathers and teachers, bear with these tears of mine--for it is as if my whole childhood were rising again before me, and I am breathing now as I breathed then with my eight-year-old little breast, and feel, as I did then, astonishment, confusion, and joy. And the camels, which then so took my fancy, and Satan, who spoke thus with God, and God, who gave his servant over to ruin, and his servant crying out: 'Blessed be thy name, albeit thou chastise me'--and then the soft and sweet singing in the church: 'Let my prayer arise . . . ,' and again the incense from the priest's censer, and the kneeling prayer! Since then--even just yesterday I turned to it--I cannot read this most holy story without tears. And so much in it is great, mysterious, inconceivable! Later I heard the words of the scoffers and blasphemers, proud words: how could the Lord hand over the most beloved of his saints for Satan to play with him, to take away his children, to smite him with disease and sores so that he scraped the pus from his wounds with a potsherd, and all for what? Only so as to boast before Satan: 'See what my saint can sufer for my sake!' But what is great here is this very mystery--that the passing earthly image and eternal truth here touched each other. In the face of earthly truth, the enacting of eternal truth is accomplished. Here the Creator, as in the first days of creation, crowning each day with praise: 'That which I have created is good,' looks at Job and again praises his creation. And Job, praising God, does not only serve him, but will also serve his whole creation, from generation to generation and unto ages of ages, for to this he was destined. Lord, what a book, what lessons! What a book is the Holy Scripture, what miracle, what power are given to man with it! Like a carven image of the world, and of man, and of human characters, and everything is named and set forth unto ages of ages. And so many mysteries resolved and revealed: God restores Job again, gives him wealth anew, once more many years pass, and he has new children, different ones, and he loves them--Oh, Lord, one thinks, 'but how could he so love those new ones, when his former children are no more, when he has lost them? Remembering them, was it possible for him to be fully happy, as he had been before, with the new ones, however dear they might be to him?' But it is possible, it is possible: the old grief, by a great mystery of human life, gradually passes into quiet, tender joy: instead of young, ebullient blood comes a mild, serene old age: I bless the sun's rising each day and my heart sings to it as before, but now I love its setting even more, its long slanting rays, and with them quiet, mild, tender memories, dear images from the whole of a long and blessed life--and over all is God's truth, moving reconciling, all-forgiving! My life is coming to an end, I know and sense it, but I feel with every day that is left me how my earthly life is already touching a new, infinite unknown, but swift-approaching life, anticipating which my soul trembles with rapture, my mind is radiant, and my heart weeps joyfully . . . ."
The Book of Job discussion
I am teaching THE BROTHERS KARAMAZOV right now, so I thought I would bring in Dostoevsky's holy elder Zosima's long discussion of Job. This is from the Pevear and Volokhonsky translation, and it comes in the second chapter of Book VI:
... oops
well might as well use this space to say look for Job 10 at the bottom of page 6 of this thread -- and might I add, I hate when that happens!
well might as well use this space to say look for Job 10 at the bottom of page 6 of this thread -- and might I add, I hate when that happens!
Last edited by SirDennis on Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Gosh you guys keep jumping ahead of the discussion.Teremia wrote:I am teaching THE BROTHERS KARAMAZOV right now, so I thought I would bring in Dostoevsky's holy elder Zosima's long discussion of Job. This is from the Pevear and Volokhonsky translation, and it comes in the second chapter of Book VI:
The Book of Job as a source of JOY seems to me an interesting twist. And THE BROTHERS KARAMAZOV takes up the question of whether earthly suffering (or, most specifically, whether the body of a seemingly saintly man begins to stink, as ordinary mortal bodies do, after death) signifies God's displeasure/punishment. Human beings are shown as eager to read the good and bad things that happen to people in life as signs of their worth or sinfulness: a flawed approach, as Dostoevsky and Job more or less agree.And the camels, which then so took my fancy, and Satan, who spoke thus with God, and God, who gave his servant over to ruin, and his servant crying out: 'Blessed be thy name, albeit thou chastise me'--and then the soft and sweet singing in the church: 'Let my prayer arise . . . ,'
I've been patiently waiting for Job 13:15, the source of joy your text speaks of because it was the point for me that transported me from being mildly interested in (and often annoyed with) God and the Bible into someone who abides in Christ. "Though you slay me, yet will I praise you."
And it is a source of joy because it is an expression of determination and hope. It is one line in a text of thousands of lines that kept me from destroying myself.
I had no idea it was written about in THE BROTHERS KARAMAZOV... you may have tipped the scales in favour of my finally getting around to reading that book.
Edit: decided to change all too personal detail. Also fixed attribution error.
Last edited by SirDennis on Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
On the heels of Job's moving and deeply personal speech in chapters 9 and 10, Zophar, his third friend, blasts him...
Job 11 NKJV or HEB
Zophar Urges Job to Repent
Then Zophar the Naamathite answered and said:
“Should not the multitude of words be answered? And should a man full of talk be vindicated?
"Now you've done it."
Should your empty talk make men hold their peace? And when you mock, should no one rebuke you?
"I'm not letting you off so easily."
For you have said, ‘My doctrine is pure, and I am clean in your eyes.’
But oh, that God would speak, And open His lips against you,
That He would show you the secrets of wisdom! For they would double your prudence. Know therefore that God exacts from you less than your iniquity deserves.
"In spite of your obvious guilt, you maintain your innocence even while claiming your doctrine is sound? You have no idea what you are talking about. If only God would answer you and show you the meaning of suffering."
“Can you search out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limits of the Almighty?
They are higher than heaven— what can you do? Deeper than Sheol— what can you know?
Their measure is longer than the earth and broader than the sea.
“If He passes by, imprisons, and gathers to judgment, then who can hinder Him?
For He knows deceitful men; he sees wickedness also. Will He not then consider it?
For an empty-headed man will be wise, when a wild donkey’s colt is born a man.
"You have no idea what God is all about, fool."
“If you would prepare your heart, and stretch out your hands toward Him;
If iniquity were in your hand, and you put it far away, and would not let wickedness dwell in your tents;
Then surely you could lift up your face without spot; yes, you could be steadfast, and not fear;
Because you would forget your misery, and remember it as waters that have passed away,
And your life would be brighter than noonday. Though you were dark, you would be like the morning.
And you would be secure, because there is hope; yes, you would dig around you, and take your rest in safety.
You would also lie down, and no one would make you afraid; yes, many would court your favor.
"Whatever you're doing, you're doing it wrong, obviously. For one thing, you are thinking about yourself too much... if you would only admit your guilt and praise God, things would be quite different for you...
But the eyes of the wicked will fail, and they shall not escape, and their hope—loss of life!”
... instead you are hoping for death." (Or perhaps Zophar is saying: ...but since you are afflicted and hoping for death, you must be wicked after all.")
General comments:
Basically Zophar stops short of calling Job's speeches blasphemous, but he seems even more convinced of Job's guilt than Elfaz or Bildad.
Noble or not, this rebuke does not seem helpful (even without knowing the ending) and Zophar seems quite cold towards Job. (Perhaps he was becoming worried he would be seen as guilty by association?) I see that if Job's friends saw his suffering as proof of his guilt, then they would have no choice but to suggest that he repent.
Also, and perhaps it's just me, but it seems the debate is shifting to commenting on Job's continuing affliction, as if what he is saying in his defence is prolonging his suffering. It's not so much what Job must have done before this; it is his insolence now that, to Zophar at least, was the cause of his suffering now. (Sort of a variation on, "God must have known how evil you would act under pressure so he punished you in advance of it, and continues to punish you.) In short, it looked to Zophar like Job was digging his own grave.
By now the four friends' distinct personalities have been established. Looking ahead, I wonder if they will continue to be distinct? Even though they are talking about the same things and somewhat echoing each others' statements, all four are taking such nuanced stances. (It's surprising to me is all... it's almost as if I sometimes still expect all voices in the text to be vanilla.)
Job 11 NKJV or HEB
Zophar Urges Job to Repent
Then Zophar the Naamathite answered and said:
“Should not the multitude of words be answered? And should a man full of talk be vindicated?
"Now you've done it."
Should your empty talk make men hold their peace? And when you mock, should no one rebuke you?
"I'm not letting you off so easily."
For you have said, ‘My doctrine is pure, and I am clean in your eyes.’
But oh, that God would speak, And open His lips against you,
That He would show you the secrets of wisdom! For they would double your prudence. Know therefore that God exacts from you less than your iniquity deserves.
"In spite of your obvious guilt, you maintain your innocence even while claiming your doctrine is sound? You have no idea what you are talking about. If only God would answer you and show you the meaning of suffering."
“Can you search out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limits of the Almighty?
They are higher than heaven— what can you do? Deeper than Sheol— what can you know?
Their measure is longer than the earth and broader than the sea.
“If He passes by, imprisons, and gathers to judgment, then who can hinder Him?
For He knows deceitful men; he sees wickedness also. Will He not then consider it?
For an empty-headed man will be wise, when a wild donkey’s colt is born a man.
"You have no idea what God is all about, fool."
“If you would prepare your heart, and stretch out your hands toward Him;
If iniquity were in your hand, and you put it far away, and would not let wickedness dwell in your tents;
Then surely you could lift up your face without spot; yes, you could be steadfast, and not fear;
Because you would forget your misery, and remember it as waters that have passed away,
And your life would be brighter than noonday. Though you were dark, you would be like the morning.
And you would be secure, because there is hope; yes, you would dig around you, and take your rest in safety.
You would also lie down, and no one would make you afraid; yes, many would court your favor.
"Whatever you're doing, you're doing it wrong, obviously. For one thing, you are thinking about yourself too much... if you would only admit your guilt and praise God, things would be quite different for you...
But the eyes of the wicked will fail, and they shall not escape, and their hope—loss of life!”
... instead you are hoping for death." (Or perhaps Zophar is saying: ...but since you are afflicted and hoping for death, you must be wicked after all.")
General comments:
Basically Zophar stops short of calling Job's speeches blasphemous, but he seems even more convinced of Job's guilt than Elfaz or Bildad.
Noble or not, this rebuke does not seem helpful (even without knowing the ending) and Zophar seems quite cold towards Job. (Perhaps he was becoming worried he would be seen as guilty by association?) I see that if Job's friends saw his suffering as proof of his guilt, then they would have no choice but to suggest that he repent.
Also, and perhaps it's just me, but it seems the debate is shifting to commenting on Job's continuing affliction, as if what he is saying in his defence is prolonging his suffering. It's not so much what Job must have done before this; it is his insolence now that, to Zophar at least, was the cause of his suffering now. (Sort of a variation on, "God must have known how evil you would act under pressure so he punished you in advance of it, and continues to punish you.) In short, it looked to Zophar like Job was digging his own grave.
By now the four friends' distinct personalities have been established. Looking ahead, I wonder if they will continue to be distinct? Even though they are talking about the same things and somewhat echoing each others' statements, all four are taking such nuanced stances. (It's surprising to me is all... it's almost as if I sometimes still expect all voices in the text to be vanilla.)
Wow, three in one day. We'll be finished in no time! Job 12 to 14 together make Job's fourth speech. In the New King James Version the speech carries the heading "Job answers his critics" (thank goodness there aren't many of those around). In another translation the heading "Job responds" and another "Job responds to Zophar." I also noticed some variation among translations in his opening remarks, some are more scathing, some less, but in all the meaning seems to be preserved. It is worth noting off the top as well that Job is getting testy, no matter what version you check. But his testiness passes and he gets into one of several monologues describing God.
Attempting to describe God while maintaining that he is indescribable may seem a tidge contradictory. However I think it is an important exercise in the vein of "this much I know." There is a sense that Job and friends are trying to outdo each other with their knowledge of God and in the process the reader gets a fairly detailed description of how God relates to his creation. It is important though, if (or when) weighing the value of the descriptions (because in the end the mind of God is unsearchable) to keep in mind the context of what is being said, and also perhaps its applicability to matter at hand. There is a lesson in Job about the usefulness (though not the validity) of doctrine and/or religion (religiosity?) that ought not to be ignored.
Job 12 HNV or HEB
Job's Fourth Speech (part 1)
1 Then Iyov answered,
2 "No doubt, but you are the people, And wisdom shall die with you.
Sarcasm?
3 But I have understanding as well as you; I am not inferior to you: Yes, who doesn't know such things as these?
"You are not answering my question," or "Tell me something I don't know."
4 I am like one who is a joke to his neighbor, I, who called on God, and he answered. The just, the blameless man is a joke.
5 In the thought of him who is at ease there is contempt for misfortune, It is ready for them whose foot slips.
"I'm glad you guys find my complaint amusing. If you were half as uncomfortable as I am right now, you would not be so amused."
6 The tents of robbers prosper, Those who provoke God are secure; Who carry their God in their hands.
The first part of v6 seems to be a reiteration of the "life isn't fair" theme. The second part, depending on the translation, implies that God doesn't contend (or bother) with troubling idol worshippers. Or it might be implying that it seems like the "wicked" have "God in their pockets." Or it could be the basis for the saying in Matt 5:45: "God sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." I think the idea is expressed elsewhere (ie apart from in Job) in the OT (not sure, don't quote me).
7 "But ask the animals, now, and they shall teach you; The birds of the sky, and they shall tell you.
8 Or speak to the eretz, and it shall teach you; The fish of the sea shall declare to you.
9 Who doesn't know that in all these, The hand of the LORD has done this,
10 In whose hand is the life of every living thing, The breath of all mankind?
"Creation is the proof of God's sovereignty."
11 Doesn't the ear try words, Even as the palate tastes its food?
12 With aged men is wisdom, In length of days understanding.
"If we are to be counted among the wise, we must be discerning of what we hear [and say]."
The following verses, as I said, describe in some detail the way God relates to his creation; in these verses he focuses mainly on those who are leaders, teachers and considered wise. Of course he mainly describes how even they are confounded by the Lord, should it suit his purpose. I'm guessing it is implied that just as God installs, say, a prince, he also unseats him.
13 "With God is wisdom and might. He has counsel and understanding.
14 Behold, he breaks down, and it can't be built again; He imprisons a man, and there can be no release.
15 Behold, he withholds the waters, and they dry up; Again, he sends them out, and they overturn the eretz.
16 With him is strength and wisdom; The deceived and the deceiver are his.
(v16"Who is more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows the fool?")
17 He leads counselors away stripped. He makes judges fools.
18 He loosens the bond of kings, He binds their loins with a belt.
19 He leads Kohanim away stripped, And overthrows the mighty.
20 He removes the speech of those who are trusted, And takes away the understanding of the Zakenim.
21 He pours contempt on princes, And loosens the belt of the strong.
22 He uncovers deep things out of darkness, And brings out to light the shadow of death.
23 He increases the nations, and he destroys them. He enlarges the nations, and he leads them captive.
24 He takes away understanding from the chiefs of the people of the eretz, And causes them to wander in a wilderness where there is no way.
25 They grope in the dark without light. He makes them stagger like a drunken man.
..tbc...
Attempting to describe God while maintaining that he is indescribable may seem a tidge contradictory. However I think it is an important exercise in the vein of "this much I know." There is a sense that Job and friends are trying to outdo each other with their knowledge of God and in the process the reader gets a fairly detailed description of how God relates to his creation. It is important though, if (or when) weighing the value of the descriptions (because in the end the mind of God is unsearchable) to keep in mind the context of what is being said, and also perhaps its applicability to matter at hand. There is a lesson in Job about the usefulness (though not the validity) of doctrine and/or religion (religiosity?) that ought not to be ignored.
Job 12 HNV or HEB
Job's Fourth Speech (part 1)
1 Then Iyov answered,
2 "No doubt, but you are the people, And wisdom shall die with you.
Sarcasm?
3 But I have understanding as well as you; I am not inferior to you: Yes, who doesn't know such things as these?
"You are not answering my question," or "Tell me something I don't know."
4 I am like one who is a joke to his neighbor, I, who called on God, and he answered. The just, the blameless man is a joke.
5 In the thought of him who is at ease there is contempt for misfortune, It is ready for them whose foot slips.
"I'm glad you guys find my complaint amusing. If you were half as uncomfortable as I am right now, you would not be so amused."
6 The tents of robbers prosper, Those who provoke God are secure; Who carry their God in their hands.
The first part of v6 seems to be a reiteration of the "life isn't fair" theme. The second part, depending on the translation, implies that God doesn't contend (or bother) with troubling idol worshippers. Or it might be implying that it seems like the "wicked" have "God in their pockets." Or it could be the basis for the saying in Matt 5:45: "God sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." I think the idea is expressed elsewhere (ie apart from in Job) in the OT (not sure, don't quote me).
7 "But ask the animals, now, and they shall teach you; The birds of the sky, and they shall tell you.
8 Or speak to the eretz, and it shall teach you; The fish of the sea shall declare to you.
9 Who doesn't know that in all these, The hand of the LORD has done this,
10 In whose hand is the life of every living thing, The breath of all mankind?
"Creation is the proof of God's sovereignty."
11 Doesn't the ear try words, Even as the palate tastes its food?
12 With aged men is wisdom, In length of days understanding.
"If we are to be counted among the wise, we must be discerning of what we hear [and say]."
The following verses, as I said, describe in some detail the way God relates to his creation; in these verses he focuses mainly on those who are leaders, teachers and considered wise. Of course he mainly describes how even they are confounded by the Lord, should it suit his purpose. I'm guessing it is implied that just as God installs, say, a prince, he also unseats him.
13 "With God is wisdom and might. He has counsel and understanding.
14 Behold, he breaks down, and it can't be built again; He imprisons a man, and there can be no release.
15 Behold, he withholds the waters, and they dry up; Again, he sends them out, and they overturn the eretz.
16 With him is strength and wisdom; The deceived and the deceiver are his.
(v16"Who is more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows the fool?")
17 He leads counselors away stripped. He makes judges fools.
18 He loosens the bond of kings, He binds their loins with a belt.
19 He leads Kohanim away stripped, And overthrows the mighty.
20 He removes the speech of those who are trusted, And takes away the understanding of the Zakenim.
21 He pours contempt on princes, And loosens the belt of the strong.
22 He uncovers deep things out of darkness, And brings out to light the shadow of death.
23 He increases the nations, and he destroys them. He enlarges the nations, and he leads them captive.
24 He takes away understanding from the chiefs of the people of the eretz, And causes them to wander in a wilderness where there is no way.
25 They grope in the dark without light. He makes them stagger like a drunken man.
..tbc...
Last edited by SirDennis on Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
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SirDennis, this thread was very helpful with my Dostoevsky class today! The discussion here had reminded me how important the social stigma aspect of Job's suffering was (everyone looking at his suffering and thinking he must not be all THAT righteous, after all, since God seemed to be punishing him) in the Biblical account. But you'll notice Dostoevsky's version (or at least his character Father Zosima's version) leaves that part out.
That gap turns out to be important, because Zosima himself suffers EXACTLY that kind of stigma after his death. The whole town thinks he's so saintly that miracles will start happening after his death--at least, surely, the minor miracle of smelling sweet despite being dead. But poor Zosima's corpse starts to stink after a day! So this is treated by the villagers and other monks as a sign that "he wasn't so holy, after all." "God's judgment is not that of man" (said nastily).
That gap turns out to be important, because Zosima himself suffers EXACTLY that kind of stigma after his death. The whole town thinks he's so saintly that miracles will start happening after his death--at least, surely, the minor miracle of smelling sweet despite being dead. But poor Zosima's corpse starts to stink after a day! So this is treated by the villagers and other monks as a sign that "he wasn't so holy, after all." "God's judgment is not that of man" (said nastily).
Thanks for mentioning that Teremia. I remember the pains my crusty but brilliant English Lit prof took explaining to us the importance of studying the bible (and Paradise Lost) if we ever wanted to understand anything written in the West prior to 1960. The example he used was the relatively simple book, The Lord of the Flies. Apart from the opening chapters generally evoking Eden, he pointed to several specific symbols in the text whose meanings are lost on readers today, assuming we could even recognize them as symbols in the first place.
Oh and thank you Ax. Imma take your word on that... I've had enough of Ecclesiastes for awhile.
Oh and thank you Ax. Imma take your word on that... I've had enough of Ecclesiastes for awhile.
Job's fourth speech continues in chapter 13. Job words are becoming decidedly more pointed, as if his anger or his confidence in his argument (or both) are waxing. Still, and perhaps I am reading too much into it, his tone wavers between mournful and annoyed; it may be a rebuttal but it continues to be a lament.
What we may be seeing is the opposite effect of what Job was complaining about in Job 6:5 5 "Does the wild donkey bray when he has grass? Or does the ox low over his fodder?" Now that some sound doctrine is being spoken, it may be nourishing him and his strength may be returning.
If verse 13:15 is any indication (and I believe it to be the central message of the entire book of Job) his resolve not to curse God, but rather to trust in him -- in his righteousness, his praiseworthiness -- remains firm. Being able to do so in the midst of his affliction is like level 99 piety. It is also noble.
Job 13 NKJV or HEB
Job's Fourth Speech (cont'd)
1 "Behold, my eye has seen all this, My ear has heard and understood it.
2 What you know, I also know; I am not inferior to you.
It appears Job has witnessed practical examples of what he was speaking about in chapter 12. For effect he repeats himself from the beginning of his speech.
3 But I would speak to the Almighty, And I desire to reason with God.
4 But you forgers of lies, You are all worthless physicians.
5 Oh, that you would be silent, And it would be your wisdom!
6 Now hear my reasoning, And heed the pleadings of my lips.
"I'm wasting my time with you...
7 Will you speak wickedly for God, And talk deceitfully for Him?
... and you are twisting what we know of God at least in applying it to my situation. Do you really think this is how God would have you treat me right now?"
8 Will you show partiality for Him? Will you contend for God?
9 Will it be well when He searches you out? Or can you mock Him as one mocks a man?
10 He will surely rebuke you If you secretly show partiality.
"Do you know the mind of God? It seems you are condemning me. How do you suppose he would feel about that? If I deserve to be punished, what say you about yourselves?"
11 Will not His excellence make you afraid, And the dread of Him fall upon you?
12 Your platitudes are proverbs of ashes, Your defenses are defenses of clay.
"Did I mention applicability? Are you not worried about speaking for him?"
13 "Hold your peace with me, and let me speak, Then let come on me what may!
14 Why do I take my flesh in my teeth, And put my life in my hands?
15 Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him. Even so, I will defend my own ways before Him.
16 He also shall be my salvation, For a hypocrite could not come before Him.
"If God would contend with me, let it be according to his will, not yours. Even if it leads to my death, I will maintain my innocence while also trusting in God. I trust him to save me because I speak the truth."
17 Listen carefully to my speech, And to my declaration with your ears.
18 See now, I have prepared my case, I know that I shall be vindicated.
19 Who is he who will contend with me? If now I hold my tongue, I perish.
"Merely arguing with you is not helping. In any event it will not lead to my vindication, as if it was your place to grant me it."
20 "Only two things do not do to me, Then I will not hide myself from You:
21 Withdraw Your hand far from me, And let not the dread of You make me afraid.
22 Then call, and I will answer; Or let me speak, then You respond to me.
23 How many are my iniquities and sins? Make me know my transgression and my sin.
"Please Lord grant me respite so I may speak clearly. Please reveal to me my transgressions that I may understand what is happening here."
24 Why do You hide Your face, And regard me as Your enemy?
25 Will You frighten a leaf driven to and fro? And will You pursue dry stubble?
"I am as nothing... oh why do you bother with me, especially without telling me what I did wrong."
26 For You write bitter things against me, And make me inherit the iniquities of my youth.
27 You put my feet in the stocks, And watch closely all my paths. You set a limit for the soles of my feet.
"I know I made mistakes in my youth but do I deserve this humiliation at your hand? I am but your servant, a prisoner to your will."
28 "Man decays like a rotten thing, Like a garment that is moth-eaten.
According to Teremia's reading of Dostoevsky he agrees.
...tbc...
A personal note: As a Christian my understanding is that in Job's broken state God's strength would have been made perfect -- something about when we are broken, our ego (pride) being shattered, we are more open to and more readily rely upon the leading of the Holy Spirit -- this may also be what we are seeing here. And of course there are the many verses about praising God throughout the Old and New Testaments; to those who believe in God, praising him (which is akin to trusting him in affliction) is a source of strength and favour. In fact, it is understood (again by Christians) that (sincerely) trusting God is proof of his presence in us. Assuming God never changes, it should also have been true for Job... which in itself must have been somewhat uplifting for him.
What we may be seeing is the opposite effect of what Job was complaining about in Job 6:5 5 "Does the wild donkey bray when he has grass? Or does the ox low over his fodder?" Now that some sound doctrine is being spoken, it may be nourishing him and his strength may be returning.
If verse 13:15 is any indication (and I believe it to be the central message of the entire book of Job) his resolve not to curse God, but rather to trust in him -- in his righteousness, his praiseworthiness -- remains firm. Being able to do so in the midst of his affliction is like level 99 piety. It is also noble.
Job 13 NKJV or HEB
Job's Fourth Speech (cont'd)
1 "Behold, my eye has seen all this, My ear has heard and understood it.
2 What you know, I also know; I am not inferior to you.
It appears Job has witnessed practical examples of what he was speaking about in chapter 12. For effect he repeats himself from the beginning of his speech.
3 But I would speak to the Almighty, And I desire to reason with God.
4 But you forgers of lies, You are all worthless physicians.
5 Oh, that you would be silent, And it would be your wisdom!
6 Now hear my reasoning, And heed the pleadings of my lips.
"I'm wasting my time with you...
7 Will you speak wickedly for God, And talk deceitfully for Him?
... and you are twisting what we know of God at least in applying it to my situation. Do you really think this is how God would have you treat me right now?"
8 Will you show partiality for Him? Will you contend for God?
9 Will it be well when He searches you out? Or can you mock Him as one mocks a man?
10 He will surely rebuke you If you secretly show partiality.
"Do you know the mind of God? It seems you are condemning me. How do you suppose he would feel about that? If I deserve to be punished, what say you about yourselves?"
11 Will not His excellence make you afraid, And the dread of Him fall upon you?
12 Your platitudes are proverbs of ashes, Your defenses are defenses of clay.
"Did I mention applicability? Are you not worried about speaking for him?"
13 "Hold your peace with me, and let me speak, Then let come on me what may!
14 Why do I take my flesh in my teeth, And put my life in my hands?
15 Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him. Even so, I will defend my own ways before Him.
16 He also shall be my salvation, For a hypocrite could not come before Him.
"If God would contend with me, let it be according to his will, not yours. Even if it leads to my death, I will maintain my innocence while also trusting in God. I trust him to save me because I speak the truth."
17 Listen carefully to my speech, And to my declaration with your ears.
18 See now, I have prepared my case, I know that I shall be vindicated.
19 Who is he who will contend with me? If now I hold my tongue, I perish.
"Merely arguing with you is not helping. In any event it will not lead to my vindication, as if it was your place to grant me it."
20 "Only two things do not do to me, Then I will not hide myself from You:
21 Withdraw Your hand far from me, And let not the dread of You make me afraid.
22 Then call, and I will answer; Or let me speak, then You respond to me.
23 How many are my iniquities and sins? Make me know my transgression and my sin.
"Please Lord grant me respite so I may speak clearly. Please reveal to me my transgressions that I may understand what is happening here."
24 Why do You hide Your face, And regard me as Your enemy?
25 Will You frighten a leaf driven to and fro? And will You pursue dry stubble?
"I am as nothing... oh why do you bother with me, especially without telling me what I did wrong."
26 For You write bitter things against me, And make me inherit the iniquities of my youth.
27 You put my feet in the stocks, And watch closely all my paths. You set a limit for the soles of my feet.
"I know I made mistakes in my youth but do I deserve this humiliation at your hand? I am but your servant, a prisoner to your will."
28 "Man decays like a rotten thing, Like a garment that is moth-eaten.
According to Teremia's reading of Dostoevsky he agrees.
...tbc...
A personal note: As a Christian my understanding is that in Job's broken state God's strength would have been made perfect -- something about when we are broken, our ego (pride) being shattered, we are more open to and more readily rely upon the leading of the Holy Spirit -- this may also be what we are seeing here. And of course there are the many verses about praising God throughout the Old and New Testaments; to those who believe in God, praising him (which is akin to trusting him in affliction) is a source of strength and favour. In fact, it is understood (again by Christians) that (sincerely) trusting God is proof of his presence in us. Assuming God never changes, it should also have been true for Job... which in itself must have been somewhat uplifting for him.
Last edited by SirDennis on Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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axordil
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This speech is indeed the most agitated so far, and shows Job trying desperately to reconcile the apparently incompatible notions of
A) his own blamelessness
B) the suffering he is undergoing
C) his belief that God is just
D) his belief that he's not getting a fair shake from the just God of C.
It's the voice of a man with nothing left to lose.
A) his own blamelessness
B) the suffering he is undergoing
C) his belief that God is just
D) his belief that he's not getting a fair shake from the just God of C.
It's the voice of a man with nothing left to lose.
I agree, though in the next chapter he becomes even more despondent. After his long and scathing rebuttal, when Elifaz speaks again (he's next), it's on!axordil wrote:This speech is indeed the most agitated so far, and shows Job trying desperately to reconcile the apparently incompatible notions of
A) his own blamelessness
B) the suffering he is undergoing
C) his belief that God is just
D) his belief that he's not getting a fair shake from the just God of C.
It's the voice of a man with nothing left to lose.
Seriously though, the dilemma is very much as you present it here. This is what makes the conclusion of the book so, erm, complex? One wonders: if Job is the oldest book of the Bible, how certain ideas persisted, even to this day, even in 3 distinct religious traditions? Though it is arguable whether Christianity -- but for Jesus Christ and Grace -- is all that distinct from OT Judaism. Certainly a case has been made that even Grace (which I think we see in Job) was there all along.
As for point D, my sense is that by this point in the story Job is beyond caring what happens to himself (fair or not) as long as his integrity remains intact in the eyes of God. He does however think his friends are dealing unfairly with him (is my sense).
I'll be posting Chapter 14 within the hour...
Last edited by SirDennis on Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
I've had no time to keep up with this excellent thread, and in consequence must go way back before being able to respond to the current installment.
First off, who is HaSatan and what is his role? In the interest of taking the text on its own merits I don't think it's enough to conflate him with the Christian idea of the Devil, which developed much later. We read that he comes among other angels (children of God), that the God addresses him in particular (although it is possible that He was chatting with other angels, too) , and that on hearing that he came from Earth (as opposed to what, one wonders), the God brings Job to his notice.
Now, HaSatan is translated as The Accuser, which seems to be his job. I wonder if it's actually just his personality. Maybe he was a particularly grumpy angel.
So what does the Accuser accuse Job of? In essence, he is saying that Job is not a righteous man - that he stays away from evil only to assure his material prosperity, and also because he has so much to lose. He claims that to Job, his relationship with God is tit for tat. I'd say he has a point.
I'll stop here, in case SirD rather not go that far back in the discussion,
More on the current topic: Job and his friends all assume that Job has been punished. As readers know, he actually is being tested.
P.S.: this is my own take, I haven't studied Job with anyone else.
First off, who is HaSatan and what is his role? In the interest of taking the text on its own merits
I don't think it's enough to conflate him with the Christian idea of the Devil, which developed much later. We read that he comes among other angels (children of God), that the God addresses him in particular (although it is possible that He was chatting with other angels, too) , and that on hearing that he came from Earth (as opposed to what, one wonders), the God brings Job to his notice.Now, HaSatan is translated as The Accuser, which seems to be his job. I wonder if it's actually just his personality. Maybe he was a particularly grumpy angel.
So what does the Accuser accuse Job of? In essence, he is saying that Job is not a righteous man - that he stays away from evil only to assure his material prosperity, and also because he has so much to lose. He claims that to Job, his relationship with God is tit for tat. I'd say he has a point.
I'll stop here, in case SirD rather not go that far back in the discussion,
More on the current topic: Job and his friends all assume that Job has been punished. As readers know, he actually is being tested.
P.S.: this is my own take, I haven't studied Job with anyone else.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Yes, we can go back to the beginning... actually I'm in the middle of preparing Job 14 and there is a point relating to something you said (here or in another thread?)... so if you would like to stick around that would be fantastic!
This is my first study (such as it is) of Job as well. And I am very interested in your perspective because I believe it is absolutely relevant to my own faith.
There isn't really anything in Job to suggest that the Adversary or the Accuser is "evil." It may be (actually I am almost certain) the names have to be understood in the context of the rest of the OT (and/or even the NT).
For instance, accusing someone is bad if they are in fact innocent. (In Duet a false accuser was to be stoned to death I think.) Contradicting God, who claimed Job was blameless and a man of complete integrity is also "bad." But you are correct that the name "The Devil" is not nearly so subtle or even instructive as calling him The Adversary or The Accuser. It brings in a lot of baggage the way calling the disciples "saint so and so" does (especially as sainthood is conferred by man as far as I know).
This is my first study (such as it is) of Job as well. And I am very interested in your perspective because I believe it is absolutely relevant to my own faith.
There isn't really anything in Job to suggest that the Adversary or the Accuser is "evil." It may be (actually I am almost certain) the names have to be understood in the context of the rest of the OT (and/or even the NT).
For instance, accusing someone is bad if they are in fact innocent. (In Duet a false accuser was to be stoned to death I think.) Contradicting God, who claimed Job was blameless and a man of complete integrity is also "bad." But you are correct that the name "The Devil" is not nearly so subtle or even instructive as calling him The Adversary or The Accuser. It brings in a lot of baggage the way calling the disciples "saint so and so" does (especially as sainthood is conferred by man as far as I know).
Job 14 (NIV) or HEB
Job's Fourth Speech Concluded
1 “Mortals, born of woman,
are of few days and full of trouble.
2 They spring up like flowers and wither away;
like fleeting shadows, they do not endure.
3 Do you fix your eye on them?
Will you bring them before you for judgment?
4 Who can bring what is pure from the impure?
No one!
Verse 4 in the Hebrew-English Bible (HEB, see link above) reads: "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." The sense of the verse is retained I think, though in another translation the verse reads as if directed at Job's friends. In that version it seems Job is asking his friends if they would drag him into uncleanness with them. This is problematic in that the context of the above verse follows from the end of Chapter 13 in which Job was either speaking to himself, or to God.
This also raises a question for me about something Frelga said about souls being pure when they are born. Not that I think this is not so, but the verse seems to make a pretty clear statement about the state of man. There are verses elsewhere in the Bible along the lines of shedding the corruptible (impure, unclean, perishable, impermanent) and putting on the incorruptible. This is understood by me to be a description of the transfiguration God's children (those who are his in belief) will undergo after death...
5 A person’s days are determined;
you have decreed the number of his months
and have set limits he cannot exceed.
6 So look away from him and let him alone,
till he has put in his time like a hired laborer.
"I vant to be ah lone." or "Who or what are we that Your gaze be fixed on us?"
7 “At least there is hope for a tree:
If it is cut down, it will sprout again,
and its new shoots will not fail.
8 Its roots may grow old in the ground
and its stump die in the soil,
9 yet at the scent of water it will bud
and put forth shoots like a plant.
Job the botanist.
10 But a man dies and is laid low;
he breathes his last and is no more.
11 As the water of a lake dries up
or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,
12 so he lies down and does not rise;
till the heavens are no more, people will not awake
or be roused from their sleep.
It seems as if Job is saying "Isn't it bad enough that life is so pointless, [that we should also suffer]?" Not sure if this is him slipping back (or further) into despair, or if this is a variation of the [common] refrain from verse 2 (which I quite like for its lyricism actually).
13 “If only you would hide me in the grave
and conceal me till your anger has passed!
If only you would set me a time
and then remember me!
14 If someone dies, will they live again?
All the days of my hard service
I will wait for my renewal to come.
15 You will call and I will answer you;
you will long for the creature your hands have made.
Is he talking about heaven or the afterlife in these verses?
16 Surely then you will count my steps
but not keep track of my sin.
17 My offenses will be sealed up in a bag;
you will cover over my sin.
Curiouser and curiouser -- it really does seem like he is talking about Grace and/or judgement (a critique really that even the righteous will receive) after death.
18 “But as a mountain erodes and crumbles
and as a rock is moved from its place,
19 as water wears away stones
and torrents wash away the soil,
so you destroy a person’s hope.
20 You overpower them once for all, and they are gone;
you change their countenance and send them away.
21 If their children are honored, they do not know it;
if their offspring are brought low, they do not see it.
22 They feel but the pain of their own bodies
and mourn only for themselves.”
Verses 18 to 22 is Job returning to the all is for nothing refrain, perhaps as his sores open again, or his heart is stabbed with the memory of his children who he lost. When you have lost (or are separated over long from) loved ones, there is that state where you waver back and fourth between peace and crippling pain. Come to think of it, any kind of devastating burden can present this way: you're fine for awhile, then a thought or memory just takes the life right out of you. Then (hopefully) it passes...
(sigh)
Job's Fourth Speech Concluded
1 “Mortals, born of woman,
are of few days and full of trouble.
2 They spring up like flowers and wither away;
like fleeting shadows, they do not endure.
3 Do you fix your eye on them?
Will you bring them before you for judgment?
4 Who can bring what is pure from the impure?
No one!
Verse 4 in the Hebrew-English Bible (HEB, see link above) reads: "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." The sense of the verse is retained I think, though in another translation the verse reads as if directed at Job's friends. In that version it seems Job is asking his friends if they would drag him into uncleanness with them. This is problematic in that the context of the above verse follows from the end of Chapter 13 in which Job was either speaking to himself, or to God.
This also raises a question for me about something Frelga said about souls being pure when they are born. Not that I think this is not so, but the verse seems to make a pretty clear statement about the state of man. There are verses elsewhere in the Bible along the lines of shedding the corruptible (impure, unclean, perishable, impermanent) and putting on the incorruptible. This is understood by me to be a description of the transfiguration God's children (those who are his in belief) will undergo after death...
5 A person’s days are determined;
you have decreed the number of his months
and have set limits he cannot exceed.
6 So look away from him and let him alone,
till he has put in his time like a hired laborer.
"I vant to be ah lone." or "Who or what are we that Your gaze be fixed on us?"
7 “At least there is hope for a tree:
If it is cut down, it will sprout again,
and its new shoots will not fail.
8 Its roots may grow old in the ground
and its stump die in the soil,
9 yet at the scent of water it will bud
and put forth shoots like a plant.
Job the botanist.
10 But a man dies and is laid low;
he breathes his last and is no more.
11 As the water of a lake dries up
or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,
12 so he lies down and does not rise;
till the heavens are no more, people will not awake
or be roused from their sleep.
It seems as if Job is saying "Isn't it bad enough that life is so pointless, [that we should also suffer]?" Not sure if this is him slipping back (or further) into despair, or if this is a variation of the [common] refrain from verse 2 (which I quite like for its lyricism actually).
13 “If only you would hide me in the grave
and conceal me till your anger has passed!
If only you would set me a time
and then remember me!
14 If someone dies, will they live again?
All the days of my hard service
I will wait for my renewal to come.
15 You will call and I will answer you;
you will long for the creature your hands have made.
Is he talking about heaven or the afterlife in these verses?
16 Surely then you will count my steps
but not keep track of my sin.
17 My offenses will be sealed up in a bag;
you will cover over my sin.
Curiouser and curiouser -- it really does seem like he is talking about Grace and/or judgement (a critique really that even the righteous will receive) after death.
18 “But as a mountain erodes and crumbles
and as a rock is moved from its place,
19 as water wears away stones
and torrents wash away the soil,
so you destroy a person’s hope.
20 You overpower them once for all, and they are gone;
you change their countenance and send them away.
21 If their children are honored, they do not know it;
if their offspring are brought low, they do not see it.
22 They feel but the pain of their own bodies
and mourn only for themselves.”
Verses 18 to 22 is Job returning to the all is for nothing refrain, perhaps as his sores open again, or his heart is stabbed with the memory of his children who he lost. When you have lost (or are separated over long from) loved ones, there is that state where you waver back and fourth between peace and crippling pain. Come to think of it, any kind of devastating burden can present this way: you're fine for awhile, then a thought or memory just takes the life right out of you. Then (hopefully) it passes...
(sigh)
Just to pick up on your point here:
ps I'm thankful that you are finding the thread useful. It is actually taking a lot out of me, edifying though it is.
I'm reading a light account of St. George (as research for a hopeful project I'm thinking about). The book tells the story of other saints as well, and how one in particular was decapitated. When his followers found his head (which had been lost apparently, how inconvenient) some days later, they reunited it with his body, noting at the time that his corpse had not spoiled in the interim. I guess that is part of the lore surrounding some saints, though I'd wager it is not related to the scriptures. (As always if someone can point me to a Bible verse that says we would know saints by their resistance to decomposition I would appreciate it.)Teremia wrote: That gap turns out to be important, because Zosima himself suffers EXACTLY that kind of stigma after his death. The whole town thinks he's so saintly that miracles will start happening after his death--at least, surely, the minor miracle of smelling sweet despite being dead. But poor Zosima's corpse starts to stink after a day! So this is treated by the villagers and other monks as a sign that "he wasn't so holy, after all." "God's judgment is not that of man" (said nastily).
ps I'm thankful that you are finding the thread useful. It is actually taking a lot out of me, edifying though it is.
So I was thinking about Frelga's points about the Devil and some of the other points raised earlier in the thread...
If we take what Ax regards as the framing device -- God and Satan's (aka The Accuser's) conversation -- out of the mix we are left (so far) with Job and his 3 friends' speeches. Over the course of these speeches it is quite clear that Job's friends are accusing him of, let's call it, unrighteousness. However:
apart from his despondency, perhaps grumbling (a stance he feels justified in taking given his affliction) there is no evidence to suggest he is guilty as charged;
even though more than one person is accusing him (though it really is only 2 since Bildad seemed to be questioning him more than accusing him) the accusation is based on the evidence of his suffering now rather than something they can point to that lead to the suffering (read punishment); and
Job has maintained his innocence;
Therefore what I believe we are seeing fits the criteria of a false accusation or false witness.
Why does this matter? Well although Job's speeches waiver between clarity and uncertainty, hope and despair, the text has been fairly consistent in discerning who Job's accusers are (none of whom are God).
As well, it seems Job in his speeches differentiates between judgement and punishment. He does not accept entirely that he is being punished; if he is being punished he does not as yet know why. Regardless, he is willing to accept God's righteous judgement, and punishment if warranted, or destruction if it be God's will.
All this is to say that in Job's view God is not an accuser, or a false witness, but He is a judge. When God was prospering him, He was judging it right (or prudent) to do so. When God allowed calamity to befall him, he was judging that to be right to do so as well. However while the former may have been interpreted as a reward, the later does not necessarily mean Job is being punished (especially as Job remains blameless in his affliction so far).
The interim analysis, least ways as far as I'm concerned, is Job's religious friends are behaving in accordance with (or perhaps on behalf of) The Accuser. (Though I doubt they see it that way or they would probably have taken a different approach all along.) And, the text does line up with the framing device. Perhaps someone at some point thought the point of the debate wasn't clear in so far as who was playing what part?
Does this make any sense? (Ax can probably boil it down to a couple of lines if it doesn't.)
If we take what Ax regards as the framing device -- God and Satan's (aka The Accuser's) conversation -- out of the mix we are left (so far) with Job and his 3 friends' speeches. Over the course of these speeches it is quite clear that Job's friends are accusing him of, let's call it, unrighteousness. However:
apart from his despondency, perhaps grumbling (a stance he feels justified in taking given his affliction) there is no evidence to suggest he is guilty as charged;
even though more than one person is accusing him (though it really is only 2 since Bildad seemed to be questioning him more than accusing him) the accusation is based on the evidence of his suffering now rather than something they can point to that lead to the suffering (read punishment); and
Job has maintained his innocence;
Therefore what I believe we are seeing fits the criteria of a false accusation or false witness.
Why does this matter? Well although Job's speeches waiver between clarity and uncertainty, hope and despair, the text has been fairly consistent in discerning who Job's accusers are (none of whom are God).
As well, it seems Job in his speeches differentiates between judgement and punishment. He does not accept entirely that he is being punished; if he is being punished he does not as yet know why. Regardless, he is willing to accept God's righteous judgement, and punishment if warranted, or destruction if it be God's will.
All this is to say that in Job's view God is not an accuser, or a false witness, but He is a judge. When God was prospering him, He was judging it right (or prudent) to do so. When God allowed calamity to befall him, he was judging that to be right to do so as well. However while the former may have been interpreted as a reward, the later does not necessarily mean Job is being punished (especially as Job remains blameless in his affliction so far).
The interim analysis, least ways as far as I'm concerned, is Job's religious friends are behaving in accordance with (or perhaps on behalf of) The Accuser. (Though I doubt they see it that way or they would probably have taken a different approach all along.) And, the text does line up with the framing device. Perhaps someone at some point thought the point of the debate wasn't clear in so far as who was playing what part?
Does this make any sense? (Ax can probably boil it down to a couple of lines if it doesn't.
)SirD, would you mind clarifying how you came to the conclusion in the last paragraph? I don't seem to follow the logic, but then my brain is stewed right now.
One very remarkable feature of this narrative is that apparently Job does have freedom of will. Neither God nor HaSatan seem to know for sure whether Job would or would not pass the test.
One very remarkable feature of this narrative is that apparently Job does have freedom of will. Neither God nor HaSatan seem to know for sure whether Job would or would not pass the test.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Brain stew, eww.Frelga wrote:SirD, would you mind clarifying how you came to the conclusion in the last paragraph? I don't seem to follow the logic, but then my brain is stewed right now.
One very remarkable feature of this narrative is that apparently Job does have freedom of will. Neither God nor HaSatan seem to know for sure whether Job would or would not pass the test.
My thinking there is based on your statement that "The Accuser" may be a personality. I didn't connect the dots clearly enough, sorry about that. Here is the complete thought restated:
"With or without the framing device the Adversary's influence [looks to me as if it] is present in the debate. If The Accuser is a personality (or a function) Job's religious friends are behaving in accordance with the Accuser."
Now if you don't see his friends as accusatory it becomes even more overt in Chapter 15.
(which will have to wait because I have to travel again today... later, God willing, I'll get it posted.)