Walking in Shadows: The Rings of Power in Middle-earth

[Jnyusa]

[Note: I imperiously split these posts off from the Bombadil discussion. Please cut and paste back into that discussion anything that got moved and shouldn't have. - VtF]

If T&G are in a different 'dimension', perhaps the hobbits are able to enter because Frodo bears the Ring ... I recall that at the Ford Frodo was able to see Glorfindel as he appears in the Blessed Realm. And when he is wearing the Ring he can see the wraiths of course.

That would give the Ring a significance I never thought about before, as a kind of key ... a perfectly traditional thing for magic objects to be in the world of faery.

Jn

[Dindraug]

Not sure the Hobbits can enter at will, I think they are invited in.

It is very linked to Faerie myth, and the other world, where rituals are needed for mear people to enter at their will, but even the lowest of fae can drag off unsuspecting people.

Jny, that was also a thought I had, Was the power of the ring so much because it transversed worlds? We know it occupies and allows entry to the world of the Nazgûl, why not the fae otherworld as well. Sauron is a spirit after the end of the second age, so presumably his remains are elsewear. Could they be in say the Zazgul world, and he is accdessable to this world by the ring and the ring alone? When it is destroyed, he is not destroyed but banished to that other world with no way back?

Sorry, digressing from Bomberdill

He does fit the Fae image, and the unsubstantiability of Goldberry fits even more

[Rowanberry]

Well, Tolkien himself described Tom somewhere as "the spirit of the English countryside" (not exactly in those words, I'm typing this from memory, but close).

We've been recently discussing the chapters that deal with Tom in the TORC VTSG. Since many (any?) of you don't visit that forum, here's what I posted there about Tom and the Ring:

The Ring has no effect on Tom, because he is above all that the Ring represents: desire for power, desire to rule, desire to possess. He is perfectly content with a little piece of land, of which he is the Master, but which he knows he does not own; in this respect, he is a lot like many native peoples in different parts of the world.

Also, as I posted in the previous chapter discussion, I see Tom as an embodiment of a spirit of nature. He is the spirit of the land (and Goldberry the spirit of the water). That's my conception of why he doesn't turn invisible when he puts the Ring on: He is at the same time very firmly both in the physical world and the spiritual world. The Ring cannot turn the land itself invisible.

[Dindraug]

Interesting concept Rowenberry. I wonder if it would work on one of the Maia? Did it turn Sauron invisible? Would it have turned Gandalf invisible? If it could not turn Gandalf invisible, is that one of the reasons he refused it, that it would give too much away?

I wonder what effect the ring would have on an ent?

Ummm, maybe we need a ring thread.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Maybe we do. Off the top of my head, the only people that are described as being made invisible by the Rings of Power are mortals - Isildur, Bilbo, Frodo, and Sméagol. Gandalf says:

'A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to mkae himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisiblepermanently and walks in the twilight under the dark power that rules the Rings.

Of course, he doesn't explicitly state that only mortals become invisible, but such have I always interpreted it.

[Alatar]

Well, we know that Galadriel remained visible while wearing her ring, so that would make sense. However, Dwarves and Men were mortal and the rings they wore granted them wealth and power respectively. Did the Nine and the Seven make their wearers invisible? Gandalf's words would suggest so, otherwise he would have known at once that Bilbo's Ring was The One, as soon as he used it to make himself invisible.

To be honest I find the subject of the rings so vague that I tend to gloss over it. It really doesn't stand up to close scrutiny. The more I look into it the more it becomes clear that no matter how Tolkien tried to tie them together the Ring of the Hobbit and the Ring of Lord of the Rings are two very different items. One is a useful trinket that served as a useful plot device (without it, would Bilbo have ever proved Gandalfs trust well placed?), the other is a reservoir of evil, with nameless powers and qualities including the ability to grant power, to generate wealth and to dominate others.

Alatar

[Rowanberry]

I wonder if it would work on one of the Maia? Did it turn Sauron invisible? Would it have turned Gandalf invisible? If it could not turn Gandalf invisible, is that one of the reasons he refused it, that it would give too much away?

I wonder what effect the ring would have on an ent?

I think that the One Ring would turn a Maia like Sauron or Gandalf invisible only if they wanted it themselves, and the same probably would go for such powerful Elves like Galadriel or Glorfindel. The mortals becoming invisible when they put on The One or any of the other rings devised by Sauron seems to come from their getting into, or at least closer to, the wraith world, away from the physical world.

Now, an Ent - they are mortal, but have powers and characteristics that other mortals don't have so, an Ent might remain visible.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I think that the One Ring would turn a Maia like Sauron or Gandalf invisible only if they wanted it themselves, and the same probably would go for such powerful Elves like Galadriel or Glorfindel. The mortals becoming invisible when they put on The One or any of the other rings devised by Sauron seems to come from their getting into, or at least closer to, the wraith world, away from the physical world.

A Maia like Sauron or Gandalf would normally have the ability to walk unseen, wearing their physical forms like we wear rainment, as Tolkien puts it. Indeed, Olórin is described in the Sil as doing exactly that, walking unseen among the Eldar and generating fair visions and promptings of wisdom. But as Gandalf, he most likely gave up that ability, I would think. However, if he claimed the One Ring for himself, he would have broken his pact with the Valar. Would he then regain the ability to "remove his rainment" and walk on unseen? (Also, he does appear visible wearing Narya at the Grey Havens, but presumably the Three Rings have lost their power at that point.)

As for Sauron, we know that after Númenor he was no longer able to assume a fair visage. But could he still walk unseen without his "rainment" whether or not he had the Ring? My guess would be yes.

Now, an Ent - they are mortal, but have powers and characteristics that other mortals don't have so, an Ent might remain visible.

Are Ents any more mortal then the Elves? I would say not.

[vison]

he is a lot like many native peoples in different parts of the world.

This fits my image of Bombadil.

The English countryside, or the Shire, is not "wild" in any sense. Yet it is what Tolkien knew as "nature", and Bombadil quite perfectly suits that sort of land as he is when we meet him. Yet, he is part of it, and always has been. Tom goes back, in his memory/existence, to a time when it WAS wild, I think. Before incomers felled the trees and ploughed the land and made it pastoral and rural, rather than wilderness.

Here where I live, in the real world, it is impossible for me to have that kind of spiritual connection to the land, I and my folk are too new here. But the First Nations do have that connection. And I think Tom has much in common with some of their myths. It's rather complicated, and I haven't really thought it through, but that's where my thinking is taking me. He is a kind of Shamanic figure, and has his own tools of power, whatever they are.

Tom is "immune" to the Ring, and to other "made" things, he is made of the Earth himself, and has no interest in objects apart from that.

Jeez. Maybe I should have posted this in the Bombadil thread.

[Frelga]

I think it is to be expected that the Ring doesn't make Tom invisible. It is pretty certain that Sauron remained visible while wearing it, since Gil-Galad and company would have had lots more trouble defeating him.

What I think is interesting is that Tom was able to see Frodo while the hobbit wore the Ring. My apologies if that has been discussed to everyone's satisfaction already.

[Dindraug]

I think it is to be expected that the Ring doesn't make Tom invisible. It is pretty certain that Sauron remained visible while wearing it, since Gil-Galad and company would have had lots more trouble defeating him.

Unless he was in another world at the time, like the ringwraits, and just marked in this world by his clothing. Like PJ's Sauron.

[wilko185]

If T&G are in a different 'dimension', perhaps the hobbits are able to enter because Frodo bears the Ring

I don't think Tom's land needs such a powerful and dreadful key. Gandalf can enter in and speak to Tom, but so apparently can Farmer Maggott, for example.

Well, we know that Galadriel remained visible while wearing her ring, so that would make sense.

Tolkien says in Letters that the Three had a different "power and purpose" than the other rings, and did not confer invisibility. However, I do guess that she would not have been made invisible by the One. Like Glorfindel she would be already present in both worlds at once, so the One would not take her anywhere.

Invisibility is not really an intended power of the Ring, IMO, it is a side-effect when the Ring is worn by unintended wearers i.e. mortals. The One lends power according to the wearer's stature, so it is perhaps understandable that for a hobbit this means invisibility (as well as the understanding of tongues as at Cirith Ungol, for example) - but even the mightiest mortals (Isildur) are also rendered invisible, so I think we can see it in terms of passing into a different world, rather than a special power per se.

As for Sauron, we know that after Númenor he was no longer able to assume a fair visage. But could he still walk unseen without his "rainment" whether or not he had the Ring? My guess would be yes.

I'm not so sure. Morgoth soon lost that power, it seems to be a mark of exerting power over the physical world that one becomes bound to it.

[I don't have quotes handy to back up any of the above, but I thought I'd finally make a quick post here ]

[Alatar]

Welcome Wilko.

[Jnyusa]

Wilko, glad to see you here!

Gandalf can enter in and speak to Tom, but so apparently can Farmer Maggott, for example.

Ah, yes! I had forgotten about Farmer Maggot.

There is also, within Tom's realm, the invisible, interior world of the Barrows. The hobbits pass through that portal without even realizing it, and certainly without intending it.

(Did Din already mention this? I think he also said something about faery becoming manifest at the will of its own inhabitants rather than at the will of mortals.)

Jn

edit: yes, here it is: "... but even the lowest of fae can drag off unsuspecting people."

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Hey wilko! Great to see you here.

Tolkien says in Letters that the Three had a different "power and purpose" than the other rings, and did not confer invisibility. However, I do guess that she would not have been made invisible by the One. Like Glorfindel she would be already present in both worlds at once, so the One would not take her anywhere.

You are correct, as usual:

In the long description of his work that Tolkien sent to Milton Waldman late in 1951:

The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility.

However, if one just read the text of LOTR, one would come away with the opposite conclusion:

In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds: some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles -- yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals. But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous.

'A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings.

Unless I am forgetting something, there is nothing in the text that suggests that the Three Rings are not one of the Great Rings that do convey invisibility. So the most reasonable conclusion would be that they do.

Invisibility is not really an intended power of the Ring, IMO, it is a side-effect when the Ring is worn by unintended wearers i.e. mortals. The One lends power according to the wearer's stature, so it is perhaps understandable that for a hobbit this means invisibility (as well as the understanding of tongues as at Cirith Ungol, for example) - but even the mightiest mortals (Isildur) are also rendered invisible, so I think we can see it in terms of passing into a different world, rather than a special power per se.

Yes, I like that way of looking at it very much. And I thing your point about Glorfindel being fully visible to Frodo when Frodo wore the Ring supports this supposition. So my question is, was Glorfindel able to see Frodo when he wore the Ring? Could Gandalf or Galadriel have seen Frodo if Frodo had put the Ring on in their presence? I would say yes.

As for Sauron, we know that after Númenor he was no longer able to assume a fair visage. But could he still walk unseen without his "raiment" whether or not he had the Ring? My guess would be yes.

I'm not so sure. Morgoth soon lost that power, it seems to be a mark of exerting power over the physical world that one becomes bound to it.

I'm not so sure, either. Morgoth exerted so much more power over the physical world then Sauron did. Tolkien said, in the essay that gave Morgoth's Ring its name:

Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. ... To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth -- hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to the be 'stained'. Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently 'incarnate': for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.

Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills that he desired to dominate.

So I don't know. (Tolkien says many interesting things about Melkor and Sauron in that essay, which I hope to discuss at some time, but they are not relevant here.)

[Túrin Turambar]

We can assume that Gandalf was lying by ommission in the paragraph in LotR (probably accidentally). All the other evidence suggests that the Three do not confer invisibility. They are the opposite IIRC – they go invisible on their wearers.

An interesting question is why, exactly, the Three lost their power when the One was destroyed. The One was created to dominate all nineteen rings, but the Three got on fine before it was made, and they weren’t in any way dependant on it.

Another question that I’d ask is what (if anything) the difference between the Nine and the Seven was. I imagine they’d be set with different gems, but are there differences internal or the result of the race that possessed them? In other words, did Celebrimbor sit down and say ‘I’m now making a Dwarven ring’ or ‘I’m now making a ring of power’? Why would a Lord of the Noldor make rings intended for Dwarves and Men?

(For the record, I believe that the Three were originally intended for the leaders of the three houses of the Noldor – one ring (presumably Narya) to Celebrimbor of the House of Fëanor, one to Gil-Galad of the House of Fingolfin and one to Galadriel of the House of Finarfin.)

[Voronwë the Faithful]

We can assume that Gandalf was lying by ommission in the paragraph in LotR (probably accidentally). All the other evidence suggests that the Three do not confer invisibility. They are the opposite IIRC – they go invisible on their wearers.

Good point.

An interesting question is why, exactly, the Three lost their power when the One was destroyed. The One was created to dominate all nineteen rings, but the Three got on fine before it was made, and they weren’t in any way dependant on it.

I can only assume that once the One was made its power over all the other Rings, including the the Three, was so great that its destruction destroyed the power of all of the others (thus the Nazgûl all meet their final demise at the the destruction of the One, presumably because the Nine lose their power). The other answer is that it was a mere dramatic devise.

Another question that I’d ask is what (if anything) the difference between the Nine and the Seven was. I imagine they’d be set with different gems, but are there differences internal or the result of the race that possessed them? In other words, did Celebrimbor sit down and say ‘I’m now making a Dwarven ring’ or ‘I’m now making a ring of power’? Why would a Lord of the Noldor make rings intended for Dwarves and Men?

Remember, it was on the Three that Celebrimbor alone made. The other Rings of Power were made, at least in part, by Sauron, and it was he who distributed the Nine and the Seven (perhaps not the the Ring of Durin, which was rumored to have been given to him directly by the Noldor). In Of the Rings of Power Tolkien writes:

But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Poer; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will. And all those rings that he governed he perverted, the more easily since he had a part in thier making, and they were accursed, and they detrayed all those that used them.

The impression that that gives me is that the Seven and the Nine were not made specifically for Dwarves and Men, respectively. It seems that there were simply that number of Rings of Power that had been made by Sauron and the Elven smiths of Ost-in-Edhil, and that Sauron chose to deal them out in those numbers, giving more to Men because they proved in this matter to be the readiest to his will.

(For the record, I believe that the Three were originally intended for the leaders of the three houses of the Noldor – one ring (presumably Narya) to Celebrimbor of the House of Fëanor, one to Gil-Galad of the House of Fingolfin and one to Galadriel of the House of Finarfin.)

That makes sense. Anything in particular that led you to conclude that?

[Túrin Turambar]

Another question that I’d ask is what (if anything) the difference between the Nine and the Seven was. I imagine they’d be set with different gems, but are there differences internal or the result of the race that possessed them? In other words, did Celebrimbor sit down and say ‘I’m now making a Dwarven ring’ or ‘I’m now making a ring of power’? Why would a Lord of the Noldor make rings intended for Dwarves and Men?

Remember, it was on the Three that Celebrimbor alone made. The other Rings of Power were made, at least in part, by Sauron, and it was he who distributed the Nine and the Seven (perhaps not the the Ring of Durin, which was rumored to have been given to him directly by the Noldor). In Of the Rings of Power Tolkien writes:

But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Poer; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will. And all those rings that he governed he perverted, the more easily since he had a part in thier making, and they were accursed, and they detrayed all those that used them.

The impression that that gives me is that the Seven and the Nine were not made specifically for Dwarves and Men, respectively.

So the seven and nine are no different from each other? There was just one set of sixteen great rings?

It seems that there were simply that number of Rings of Power that had been made by Sauron and the Elven smiths of Ost-in-Edhil, and that Sauron chose to deal them out in those numbers, giving more to Men because they proved in this matter to be the readiest to his will.

The distribution of the Nine is interesting. We know for certain that the Seven went to the seven houses of Dwarves. I guess that the three were intended for the three houses of Noldor. Why were nine rings given to men? Because there were nine leaders of men in Middle Earth at that time? Or because there were nine rings of power left over?

(For the record, I believe that the Three were originally intended for the leaders of the three houses of the Noldor – one ring (presumably Narya) to Celebrimbor of the House of Fëanor, one to Gil-Galad of the House of Fingolfin and one to Galadriel of the House of Finarfin.)

That makes sense. Anything in particular that led you to conclude that?

Not really. I tried to work out who Celebrimbor would have intended them for, and then I paid attention to where they ended up. If Celebrimbor had lived still, I’d have bet he would have kept one of the rings that went to Gil-Galad, which would then have left a ring to each house. It’s also worth noting that the Feanorians seem to have a fairly Noldor-centric viewpoint – Celebrimbor might not have considered giving rings to anyone other than Noldor.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

So the seven and nine are no different from each other? There was just one set of sixteen great rings?

So the text seems to imply.

The distribution of the Nine is interesting. We know for certain that the Seven went to the seven houses of Dwarves. I guess that the three were intended for the three houses of Noldor. Why were nine rings given to men? Because there were nine leaders of men in Middle Earth at that time? Or because there were nine rings of power left over?

We know very little about the distribution of the Nine, don't we? We know that Khamul is referred to as "the black Easterling" but beyond that, not much that I can think of. If in fact it is true that there were simply 16 Great Rings made (other then the Three and the One), then I am inclined to believe that in fact it was because there were nine rings left over, after the seven houses of the Dwarves were taken care of.

[wilko185]

So the seven and nine are no different from each other? There was just one set of sixteen great rings?

So the text seems to imply.

I thought the 7 and 9 were conceived of as two distinct "sets", though it isn't clear in what ways they differed:

Then Celebrimbor was put to torment, and Sauron learned from him where the Seven were bestowed. This Celebrimbor revealed, because neither the Seven nor the Nine did he value as he valued the Three...

All the rings were presumably made by and for Elves, I think (apart from the "legend" of one of the Seven being presented to Durin direct). It was Sauron who gave them to mortals, which as Gandalf said was always going to be perilous.

Why were nine rings given to men? Because there were nine leaders of men in Middle Earth at that time? Or because there were nine rings of power left over?

An explanation of sorts:

But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven Rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will.