I know I shouldn't be posting this because this thread shouldn't be about PJ's LOTR but I really can't help myself in this case
V wrote:To some extent, I agree with this. For instance, he probably should have left the Paths of the Dead out altogether.
How could you say that? It was my favorite part of the movie! Come on the whole "The Way is SHUT" didn't appeal to you at all? Am I the only one who loved it???
I'm sure you aren't the only one who loved it, swiz, but . . . I think a lot of people saw the whole thing as overkill—the rotting ghosts, the huge visible army of green scrubbing bubbles, the (shudder) avalanche of skulls.
Speaking for myself, what I liked about the Paths in the book was the creepiness of not seeing the army of the dead—just sensing that they're there. Instead we get THE WHOLE THING IN OUR FACES with lots of fairly generic horror-movie ghosties and beasties.
For me, where the films went wrong was almost always where PJ went for the obvious over the subtle, and I think this is the most egregious example.
(I have to admit that the opening, where they're riding up to the cave and the first few moments they're in it, is genuinely creepy and effective—I even like Legolas's spaced-out exposition. I wish PJ had stuck to that mood.)
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
The sequence has its moments but, overall, it was the dullest and poorest sequence of the trilogy. Gimli's "comic relief" in the EE - with the crunching skulls bit - might be my least favorite Gimli scene (ranked amongst many). But the worst part is how undeniably deus ex machina-esque they feel. Though, like other deus ex machina moments, that's as much Tolkien's fault as anybodys.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
S'wiz, I split this off so that we could discuss it here.
I have mixed feelings about the Paths of the Dead in the film. I think both Orlando and Viggo do some of their best work in the early sequences. I love Orlando's delivery of the prophecy (though I'm not wild about the camera work there) and I think Viggo comes about as close to book-Aragorn as he gets in his "What say you?" speech. I think he shows real believable despair when it appears that he has failed to get the Dead to fight for him. And I think the scene where he releases the Dead does a good job of showing how important Honour is.
But I think that the presentation of the Dead themselves is very poorly done and borders on the absurd. It is more proper for a "Pirates of the Carribbean" type movie then LOTR. They don't at all capture what Tolkien was trying to present. And the skull avalanche is an utter embarrasment. The duplication of the charge of the Dead with the Corsairs and then again on the Pelennor is a serious miscalculation. But worst of all by far is the "green scrubbing bubble" effect which is presented as the decisive element of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, which goes along way towards negating the effect of the valour of the Riders of Rohan and the men of Gondor.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
Out of 188 scenes in the trilogy, the boards voted Paths of the Dead as #186. Only two scenes are less liked! If Paths of the Dead is indeed your favorite, you are in a very small minority around here!
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
Thanks V
yov yes it does seem like I'm in a minority! (a really small minority might only consist of one person!)
But I will still voice why I like it. The whole look of the Dead didn't fit well with the movie I agree and the whole skull thing is quite frankly overkill.
However the thing I really liked was Viggo's "What say you?" speech. It is the only time in any of the movies where you actually see Aragorn and its the only scene where I connected with Viggo. Not when he was talking to Arwen not in the wedding only there in the Paths of the Dead. Can't you guys forgive the look of the Dead for that beautiful scene?
Bloom's speech is nice too and so is Gimli's "They had no honor in life, they have none now in death!".
PS:When I wrote that post I though people were going to ignore it not start a whole new thread Cool
Out of 188 scenes in the trilogy, the boards voted Paths of the Dead as #186. Only two scenes are less liked! If Paths of the Dead is indeed your favorite, you are in a very small minority around here!
What kind of a crazy, obsessed person would put the time and effort into to compiling such a detailed survey? Sheesh.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
I am personally shocked about those results. I mean sure the scene had its problems but it was Aragorn at his best! Ignore the special effects for a moment and listen!!!!
ETA:might have been a tad rude and I appologize but I'm still in denial...
Faramond wrote:It should have been handled as it was in the book, and told as a flashback.
No, flashback wouldn't have worked in the movies, although it is totally all right in the book; and, the Paths part isn't told as a flashback there either, just the attack on the Corsair ships.
The TE version worked fine for me, and they should have left it that way.
But, I fully second Primmy in this:
a lot of people saw the whole thing as overkill... For me, where the films went wrong was almost always where PJ went for the obvious over the subtle, and I think this is the most egregious example.
In the EE version of this scene, PJ should have remembered two excellent pieces of advice regarding storytelling: "Less is more" and "Kill your darlings".
See the world as your self.
Have faith in the way things are.
Love the world as your self;
then you can care for all things.
~ Lao Tzu
I think it's first important to look at why the Paths of the Dead are significant in the book. Obviously, in a work about which the author says the main themes are death and deathlessness, a sub-plot about a group of Men that are denied the gift of Death must have some significance. But how or why are they denied the gift of Death? Is it because Isildur cursed them? Surely he could not have had that kind of power (and curses in Middle-earth tend to "bite" the curser more often then the cursee). Surely no one other then Eru Himself would have the power to deny Men the Gift that He granted them (even temporarily). And why would be do so? Not because Isildur cursed them, but rather because they broke their own oath. Only when they fulfill their Oath to Isildur's Heir are the granted the release they crave. The Dead are an illustration of the horror and dread that occurs when the Natural Course of Things is interfered with.
Very little of this comes through in the movie. Instead, they choose to emphasize that Aragorn has a "magic sword" which I found to be cheesy and very un-Tolkienesque. Very little of the sense of horror and dread that Tolkien is able to generate comes through in the film. This is perhaps, an example of something where it is better to tell then to show.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
This is one section that could have, and should have, been filmed exactly as it appears in the book. Hints and whispers and shadows, and no King of the Dead. And no Corsairs of Umbar comic relief, argh. The entire effect would have been much more frightening. Even if they had to bring them to the Pelennor, it could have been done in the dark, and the Dead handled mostly by showing others' reactions to them.
I realize PJ wanted to simply eliminate the 200,000 dead orcs that would otherwise have littered Minas Tirith and the field, but it's a cheat and a silly effect that provides an anticlimax to an otherwise gloriously filmed battle.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
I actually agree with you V and prim that the dead were hardly frightening and that whispers of them would probably have been more effective. But the thing is that's not the only thing to consider. I know I've said this before but I'll say it again: where else in all the movie does Aragorn shine through? Also this scene is important for normail viewers because it shows Aragorn taking up the task of being king of Gondor. Honestly it has one of the best dialogues in the whole movie!
SW is getting quite desperate trying to convince fellow HOFers about the importance of the Paths of the Dead
In my first post in this thread, I wrote:I think Viggo comes about as close to book-Aragorn as he gets in his "What say you?" speech
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
The umlauted wonder wrote:Surely no one other then Eru Himself would have the power to deny Men the Gift that He granted them (even temporarily). And why would be do so? Not because Isildur cursed them, but rather because they broke their own oath. Only when they fulfill their Oath to Isildur's Heir are the granted the release they crave.
Then Middle Earth must have been full of ghost armies from throughout the 3 ages waiting for the opportunity to fulfill their many broken oaths. Lucky for Aragorn & Co. that they had one such army handy at the moment of need.
As for the Aragorn dialogue, it didn't do anything for me either, even if it brings him closer to book-Aragorn, as book-Aragorn is one of my least favorite book characters.
How could you say that? It was my favorite part of the movie! Come on the whole "The Way is SHUT" didn't appeal to you at all? Am I the only one who loved it??? 
