The Silmarillion Discussion at The Hall of Fire

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Post by Alatar »

Sassafras wrote: If I remember correctly, all (most?) of the Men in Tolkien's world who do aspire to, and achieve greatness carry Elven blood in their lineage.
Surely Beren was a "pure-blood" mortal? I don't remember any mention of elven blood in him?

I promise I'll give this chapter a proper treatment soon...
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

True (though in the original versions of the story, Beren was an Elf, though of supposedly lesser nobility then Lúthien).
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Post by truehobbit »

Ack, sorry, I've never got round to answer to the replies to my previous post on the "Flight of the Noldor"-chapter! :oops:
But I did read the current chapter today! :D

Can I make just a few points on the previous chapter still?
I loved your quote from Ath's post about Ungoliant, Voronwë!
I also see her more in that tormented light than as one-dimensional evil.
Ok, one-dimensional in that she probably never struggled what to be, but still knowing what is good and beautiful and knowing that it is beyond her reach.
(Like Lucifer in Paradise Lost when he sees Paradise.)
So, I think I'd disagree with your take on evil in Tolkien, Sassy. (In the context of the next chapter we also get to the evil of the Orcs.)
(And, interestingly, in your next post you bring up the question as if you doubted this one-dimensionality yourself: Can a soul of a great power, Maia/Ainur be incontrovertibly perverted beyond redemption? Can the corruption be absolute? - that's also something I'd love to discuss.)

I liked this very much:
Sass wrote:Still, Tolkien appears to gave conceived of her as lust (for light) personified and so it seems singularly fitting that she would eventually devour herself ... a sort of poetic justice.
Great thought - and it's not even poetic justice, I think, but only the natural consequence of lust - it devours itself.

Strangely, the fact that she's a she never disturbed me (as it disturbed me that the evil in Narnia in form of the White Witch is a she) - we think of spiders as females, they are the more active gender of their species (which in itself probably makes the animal suspicious to humans in a patriarchal society) - and there are enough male evil characters to make sure it's not disturbing to me. (However, having evil lust personified in a female character does speak of the mentality of the time. Lust in a female would have been more off-putting a vice than lust in a male, I guess.)
Voronwë wrote:Would the bitterness in his heart at the slaying of his father as well as the rape of his precious Silmarils not still led him to the same path even if he had freely agreed to give up the Silmarils when asked, or would his grief have been free of the madness that drove the Noldor to exile and misery? We can only speculate, but I suspect that Tolkien is suggesting that it would have.
I really like this question - mind if I bring it up in the Fëanor-discussion? :)
This is the type of emotional manipulation that Tolkien does so well. I really should NOT feel sympathy for Fëanor here
I guess that's why I didn't like much of the Sil at first - talking so grandly about someone I could not feel sympathy for.

As to the next chapter: excellent intro post, Ath! :)

On re-reading this, I noticed how much the starlight-thing bothered me.
When I read the stories I imagine normal daylight (maybe not glaring mid-day, but still daylight), and when I'm reminded, as in this chapter, that I'm supposed to picture only starlight, I just can't.
I've been outside in clear nights in areas with few houses - and I'm sure most people here have been in much emptier places than I was in then - and when there is just starlight, it's dark! I find it depressing to imagine the Elves in perpetual darkness.
Maybe I'm getting something wrong?

I loved the parts about the relationship between Dwarves and Elves. It's fascinating that the Dwarves are willing to learn, but unwilling to share their own ideas.
I was also rather baffled by the text where it said the Elves never surpassed the Dwarves in working steel - I thought the Elves surpassed everybody in everything!

Well, enough for now, bedtime here - hope to be back later! :)

Edited to add:
Something else from Voronwë's quote:
the rape of his precious Silmarils
Is "rape" your word here, Voronwë, or Tolkien's? On reflection I noticed that it struck me as odd. I know that it is not only used for sexual rape but also for things getting robbed (because, I guess, it's the noun from "to rob"). However, I used to think that even in cases where "rape" is used to mean something or someone getting abducted/stolen, there is always an element, a connotation, of violation and desecration involved, more than in "simple" robbery. So, would you say this is correct about the connotation of the word? And if so, does it apply to the Silmarils?
but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Can I make just a few points on the previous chapter still?
Hobby, and everyone, please feel free to bring up comments about previous chapters any time. In a perfect world, we would have all been discussing all of this at the same time, in the same place, and reading each chapter together. But we all know this isn't a perfect world. If you have something to say about something that we discussed earlier, bring it up. Or if I or Ath move on to a new chapter and you (any you) still have something to say about the one just left behind, please, please say it. :)
Voronwë wrote:
Would the bitterness in his heart at the slaying of his father as well as the rape of his precious Silmarils not still led him to the same path even if he had freely agreed to give up the Silmarils when asked, or would his grief have been free of the madness that drove the Noldor to exile and misery? We can only speculate, but I suspect that Tolkien is suggesting that it would have.

I really like this question - mind if I bring it up in the Fëanor-discussion?
Considering that I have already repeated the question there, it certainly it would be appropriate. :P (Even if I hadn't, it would be. :))
Is "rape" your word here, Voronwë, or Tolkien's? On reflection I noticed that it struck me as odd. I know that it is not only used for sexual rape but also for things getting robbed (because, I guess, it's the noun from "to rob"). However, I used to think that even in cases where "rape" is used to mean something or someone getting abducted/stolen, there is always an element, a connotation, of violation and desecration involved, more than in "simple" robbery. So, would you say this is correct about the connotation of the word? And if so, does it apply to the Silmarils?
Hobby, "Of the Rape of the Silmarils" is the title of a subchapter in a version of the "later Quenta Silmarillion" printed in Morgoth's Ring that contains the scene where Fëanor refuses to allow the Silmarils to be broken, and then learns that Morgoth has stolen them and killed his father. There are an additional 3 paragraphs in which Maedros describes to Manwë the killing of Finwë and the stealing of the Silmarils that I can't for the life of me understand why Christopher left out of the published version. :scratch:

In any rate, yes I would say that what you say is correct about the connotation of the word. The Silmarils are often described as "holy jewels" so I would agree that their theft by the dark lord constituted a desecration.

And this says something about Fëanor, too, that for all of his evil deeds, he was not himself truly evil. But perhaps I should expound upon that in the Fëanor thread as well. :)
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Post by Hachimitsu »

Hi, I thought thought I would come in and post a quick post since I am a little short on time. I haven't been able to catch up so I thought I would just post now and catch up later.
I am currently on chapter 9 and I am guessing some of this has been discussed already, but I was wondering what Melkor was thinking after he found out what Fëanor had done in the aftermath of Melkor's escape. I keep imagining that he'd be in the state of mind of thinking things going better then he would have imagined if he had killed Fëanor when he originally wanted to. Not to mention it seems Fëanor commits a similar act that was done to him by burning down the ships of the Teleri. Everytime I read I am so shocked although I know what happens.
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Post by Athrabeth »

Hobby wrote:On re-reading this, I noticed how much the starlight-thing bothered me.
When I read the stories I imagine normal daylight (maybe not glaring mid-day, but still daylight), and when I'm reminded, as in this chapter, that I'm supposed to picture only starlight, I just can't.
I've been outside in clear nights in areas with few houses - and I'm sure most people here have been in much emptier places than I was in then - and when there is just starlight, it's dark! I find it depressing to imagine the Elves in perpetual darkness.
Maybe I'm getting something wrong?
Hobby, this was from a post I wrote when we were discussing The Coming of the Elves back at TORC.
I suppose that for me, the first and strongest impression of this chapter is the idea and imagery of starlight. I think that from my very first reading of the Sil, I have imagined the stars above Arda to be greater, brighter, closer, and somehow more joyful than those in our own world, which might seem in comparison burdened by age and wear and sorrows. But even our older and more remote stars stir such a yearning within our hearts; even these modern scientific certainties of hydrogen and helium and nuclear fusion become things beautiful and wondrous to behold when they are spread out above us, scattered like countless diamonds across the sky. I think Tolkien well understood the universal love and reverence we “beings of Arda” hold for the stars that surround our little world like guardians of hope; always beyond our physical grasp, yet always urging us to look upward and outward, beyond ourselves.
I see the early starlight of Arda as being unlike anything gracing our night skies, and imagine the resulting "illumination" as being more closely akin to moonlight. Here, where I live, when the moon is full and the air is clear, I can walk through our wood and meadow without the need of any other source of light. The light itself is incredibly magical to me.....silver-white, which causes the familiar colours of objects I see every day to take on different hues, softer and more subtle. Actually, the scene from the FOTR EE, where Frodo and Sam are watching the departing Elves, comes very close to how I imagine Tolkien's starlight before the Sun and Moon:

Image

I like to imagine that the Elves themselves also have this inherent complement to the starlight that shines from within, or perhaps the quality of becoming shimmering "reflectors" of gentle, subdued light......or perhaps both. For me, this scene very much captures how I envision the Elves and their environment under the strong, young stars of Varda Elentári, which "shone as silver fires".
Wilma wrote:I am currently on chapter 9 and I am guessing some of this has been discussed already, but I was wondering what Melkor was thinking after he found out what Fëanor had done in the aftermath of Melkor's escape. I keep imagining that he'd be in the state of mind of thinking things going better then he would have imagined if he had killed Fëanor when he originally wanted to.
Yes! I think it's clear from his actions that Morgoth is diminished upon his return to Middle-earth by his own hatred and fear. Knowing there is a host of some of the most powerful Elves of Arda bound by an oath to destroy him and recover the Silmarils, led by the mightiest of all........well, I'm sure the idea was rather unsettling, even for the Black Foe of the World. ;)
Not to mention it seems Fëanor commits a similar act that was done to him by burning down the ships of the Teleri. Everytime I read I am so shocked although I know what happens.
I very much agree, Wilma.......on both your points. When Olwë tells Fëanor of the Teleri's love for their white ships, his words echo almost exactly those spoken by Fëanor when he refuses the idea of breaking the Silmarils. That Fëanor can't recognize this bond between himself and others, that he has become so isolated in his own driving, vengeful thought, that he can steal and then destroy his kindred's most cherished creations, reveals to us the almost unfathomable depth of his fall.
Image

Who could be so lucky? Who comes to a lake for water and sees the reflection of moon.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I like to imagine that the Elves themselves also have this inherent complement to the starlight that shines from within, or perhaps the quality of becoming shimmering "reflectors" of gentle, subdued light......or perhaps both. For me, this scene very much captures how I envision the Elves and their environment under the strong, young stars of Varda Elentári, which "shone as silver fires".
Me too. :love:

And as we will see soon, Tolkien himself felt that the image of the Elves walking in the starlight before the Sun and the Moon had great dramatic effect. I very much agree (but I have also always loved the night sky, particularly in rural places where the stars shine bright and shimmering.)

Speaking of the Sun and the Moon, I largely have my post introducing the the next chapter (Of the Sun and the Moon and the Hiding of Valinor) ready to go. Would folks prefer that I post it when it is ready, or wait a few more days to give people a chance to comment further on the present chapter, or previous ones? (Not that people couldn't still comment on them even after we have moved on.)
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Well, since no one seems to care either way, I might as well get this out of my system. People can ignore it now just as easily as later. :P

Of the Sun and the Moon and the Hiding of Valinor

I love this little six page long chapter. Ironically, it is perhaps the one part of the story that Tolkien was most dissatified with, as well as one of the parts that changed the most in tone from the original story. I think the published version is just right. I’m glad that he did not make the fundamental changes to his lengendarium that he indicated he believed were necessary. But I’m equally glad that he toned down the original, highly ‘primitive’ and even absurd (yet very powerful in its own right) Tale of the Sun and the Moon from the original Lost Tales. Christopher says, of the original Tale:
the last outpourings of life from the dying Trees are utterly strange and ‘enormous’, those of Laurelin portentious, even ominous; the Sun is astoundingly bright and hot even to the Valar, who are awestruck and disquieted by what has been done (the Gods know ‘that they had done a greater thing than they at first knew'); and the anger and distress of certain of the Valar at the burning light of the Sun enforces the feeling that in the last fruit of Laurelin a terrible and unforeseen power has been released
As the legendarium evolved, this description evolved into the “succinct and beautiful language” (as Christopher rightly describes it) that survive in the published Silmarilion regarding the creation of the Sun and the Moon:
Manwë bade Yavanna and Nienna to put forth all their powers of growth and healing; and they put forth all their powers upon the Trees. But the tears of Nienna availed not to heal their mortal wounds; and for a long while Yavanna sang alone in the shadows. Yet even as hope failed and her song faltered, behold! Telperion bore at last upon a leafless bough one great flower of silver, and Laurelin a single fruit of gold.

These Yavanna took, and then the Trees died, and their lifeless stems stand yet in Valinor, a memorial of vanished joy. But the flower and fruit Yavanna gave to Aulë, and Manwë hallowed them; and Aulë and his folk made vessels to hold them and preserve their radiance, as is said in the Narsilion, the Song of the Sun and the Moon. These vessels the Valar gave to Varda, that they might become lamps of heaven, outshining the ancient stars, being nearer to Arda; and she gave them power to traverse the lower regions of Ilmen, and set them to voyage upon appointed courses above the girdle of the Earth from the West unto the East and to return.
:love:

I love the sense of hope being born out the depths of quiet melancholy. This is the divine plan working in harmony. Eru inserting the finger of God to bring forth Light when all hope is seemingly gone. Yavanna and Aulë working together with Manwë and Varda and the rest of the Valar to take Eru’s gift and bring its radiance to “the world” (rather then keeping it in “heaven”as was the case with the Trees). And, as Christopher says also:
The grave and tranquil words cannot entirely suppress a sense that there emerges here an outcropping, as it were, uneroded, from an older level, more fantastic, more bizarre. So indeed it does: such was the nature of the work, evolved over so many years. But it did not stand in the work as an isolated myth, a now gratuitous element that could be excised; for bound up with it was the myth of the Two Trees (‘the Elder Sun and Moon’), giving light through long ages to the land of Valinor, while Middle-earth lay in darkness, illumined only by the stars in the firmament of Arda.
However, Tolkien came to feel that this conception was too “astronomically absurd” and should be abandoned. In the “Myths Transformed” section of Morgoth’s Ring, there are several examples of his attempts to alter this fundamental part of the story (strangely, he never seems to have considered abandoning the concept of the Two Trees themselves, though its hard to see how that concept is any less absurd). These efforts were highly unsuccessful in my eyes, and strike me as completely unnecessary. But of course, I was a transcendentalist long before I had ever heard of Peter Jackson. For me it doesn’t matter so much whether the story makes “sense”. Or rather, as I have repeated so often, sense is what you make of it. Christopher says (and I agree – unlike some other who have dismissed Christopher as nothing more then a clerk and a cataloguer of his father’s work, I have tremendous respect for Christopher’s thoughts about his father’s writings):
In this brief text he wrote scornfully of the ‘the astronomically absurd business of the making of the Sun and Moon’. I think it possible that it was the actual nature of the this myth that led him finally to abandon it. It is in conception beautiful, and not absurd; but it is exceedingly ‘primitive’.
I agree that it is in conception beautiful. And I would argue, in execution as well. The two short paragraphs that survive in the published Silmarillion from the original far more detailed (and far more bizarre and fantastic) description of the creation of the Sun and the Moon wonderfully capture the Sense of Mystery and Awe that (to me at least) makes Tolkien's work so special (as Wildwood pointed out in a different context in the Bombadil thread).

And, as Tolkien himself notes, if this “absurd” business of the making of the Sun and Moon were to be abandoned:
One loses, of course, the dramatic impact of such things as the first ‘incarnates’ waking in a starlit world – or the coming of the High Elves to Middle-earth and unfurling their banners at the first rising of the Moon.
:love:

We have already discussed the former, and we will come to the latter in a few chapters. To me at least, those losses alone would be enough to outweigh any benefits of making the change.

But I have, of course, gotten a bit ahead of the story. At the beginning of the chapter:
It is told that after the flight of Melkor the Valar sat long unmoved upon their thrones int eh Ring of Doom; but they were not idle, as Fëanor declared in the folly of his heart. For the Valar may work many things with thought rather then with hands, and without voices in silence they may hold council one with another. Thus they held vigil in the night of Valinor, and their thoughts passed back beyond Eä and forth to the End; yet neither power nor wisdom assuaged their grief, and the knowing of evil in the hour of its being.
This is once again Tolkien at his best. I love the way that he uses formal, stately language to preserve the sense of remoteness in time, and of the high majesty of the Valar (despite their naivete). The image of the Valar silently holding council one with another has always brought to my mind Gandalf, Elrond, Celeborn and Galadriel holding council with each other on the journey from Minas Tirith after Sauron is defeated [’for they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind’]. But a question occurred to me that I had not thought of before. If the Valar’s thoughts passed forth to the End, does that mean that they know what will happen at the End of Arda?

What is clear is that despite everything that had happened -- Melkor’s destruction of the Lamps, and all the other battles they had fought with him -- until the Darkening of Valinor and the Marring of Fëanor, the Valinor simply did not understand that evil existed. What a difficult concept for us to grasp and yet, we take the existence of evil for granted. Try to imagine, if you will, knowing a universe in which evil does not exist. Despite what John Lennon said, it is hard to do.

I’ve already commented in the Fëanor thread about the Valar mourning as much for the marring of Fëanor as they did for the death of the Trees, so I won’t belabor the point, except to say that despite the surface similarities between Melkor and Fëanor I see them in very different light: if Melkor was the “Marrer” then Fëanor was epitomy of the “Marred.”

I did promise wilko that I would comment on the words that come next in the long first paragraph of this chapter, and indeed they do relate very strongly to the overriding themes that have underscored this whole multi-messageboard discussion:
when the messengers declared to Manwë the answers of Fëanor to his heralds, Manwë wept and bowed his head. But at that last word of Fëanor: that at the least the Noldor should do deeds to live in song for ever, he raised his head, as one that hears a voice far off, and he said: ‘So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been.’

But Mandos said: ‘And yet remain evil. To me shall Fëanor come soon.
Manwë raising his head as though hearing a voice far off can only be interpreted as Eru revealing to him more of the divine plan then had been previously revealed to this Vala, who is repeatedly described as knowing the most of Eru’s mind. The bolded words are highly significant, to me at least. For the price could be no other. Is Manwë saying that in fact only one reality is possible, that no other paths could have been tread?

What a paradox the concept of evil being good to have been is! Mandos at least ain’t buying it at all. He of all the Valar recognizes evil when he sees it (though he himself is NOT evil).

And that last sentence: “To me shall Fëanor come soon.” This shows just how far from typical literary convention Tolkien was. Not only does he kill off the closest thing to a main character that the story has a third of the way through the book, he telegraphs that it is going to happen two chapters before it actually does! Although to be honest, I really can’t say for sure whether I understood when I first read this that it meant that Fëanor was going to die soon, but I think I did, and I think I was mighty put out by it, actually. It is only over time that I have come to realize that Fëanor’s early death really was the necessary path that the story had to take. But now I’m getting ahead of myself.

It is at this point that the beautiful words concerning the original “making” of the Sun and the Moon that I describe above appear. And now, I fear, having spent more then two pages on the first two pages of the chapter, I must run more swiftly to the end, and let others (more worthy) fill in the details.

We see the Valar resolving to illuminate Middle-earth to hinder Melkor, for the benefit of the Avari, and the exiled Noldor, and even of Men. We are asked to believe that, just as the Valar made war upon Melkor for the sake of the Quendi upon their awakening, they now “forebore for the sake of the Hildor, the Aftercomers, the younger Children of Ilúvator” out of fear that the weak mortals would not survive the fear and tumult that would result. I don't buy it. Sounds like an avoidance mechanism to me. :roll:

Isil and Anar, and, many other names as well, are given to the Moon, the last flower of Telperion, and Anar, the last fruit of Laurelin. Interesting because the first time most of us see those times is in the names of the sons of Elendil, but it is the Isildur that seems to burn the brighter of the two, not Anárion. I wonder what's up with that?

We learn of Arien, the fire-maiden that steers the ship of the Sun, and Tirion the hunter, who guides the vessel of the Moon. But she was “mightier then he”.
Isil was first wrought and made ready, and first rose into the realm of the stars, and was the elder of the new lights, as was Telperion of the Trees. Then for a while the world had moonlight, and many things stirred and woke that had waited long in the sleep of Yavanna. The servants of Morgoth were filled with amazement, but the Elves of the Outer Lands looked up in delight; and een as the Moon rose above the darness in the west, Fingolfin let blow his silver trumpets and began his march into Middle-earth, and the shadows of his host went long and black before them.
:love: [see Ath, my feelings about Fingolfin are very mixed, as I told you before]
Tilion had traversed the heaven seven times, and thus was in the furthest east, when the vessel of Arien was made ready. Then Anar arose in glory, and the first dawn of the Sun was like a great fire upon the towers of the Pelóri: the clouds of Middle-earth were kindled, and there were heard the sound of many waterfalls.
:love: :love:
Tilion was wayward and uncertain in speed, and held not to his appounted path; and he sought to come near to Arien, being drawn by her splendour, though the flame of Anar scorched him, and the island of the moon was darkened.

Because of the waywardness of Tilion, therefore, and yet more because of the prayers of Lórien and Estë, who said that sleep and rest had been banished from the Earth, and the stars were hidden, Varda changed her counsel, and allowed a time wherein the world should still have shadow and half-light.

...Tilion went with uncertain pace, as yet he goes, and was still drawn towards Arien, as he shall ever be; so that often both may be seen above the Earth together, or at times it will chance that he comes so nigh that his shadow cuts off her brightness and there is a darkness amid the day.
:love:

This beautiful imagery is all the Sense that I need. Tolkien describes a universe that is both identifiably our world, and identifiably Other. It is perfect. I am very grateful to the fates that he was not able to abandon this beautiful conception.

We see that still the light of Valinor was greater and fairer then upon Middle-earth. But that light could not “recall the light that was of old, that came for the Trees before they were touched by the poison of Ungoliant. That light lives now in the Silmarils alone.” (Getting ahead of the story again, never until this moment did it occur to me the significance of the fact that the original “holy” light survives in the sky only in the Evening Star - but I’ll have to wait until we get to the end of the story to talk about that.)

We see Melkor unsuccessfully assail Tirion. Thankfully, we no long see him “ravish” Arien, as he does in the original Tale. In fact, he is so greatly reduced already at this time that he greatly fears her, and hides himself and his servants from her.

But they are not the only ones to hide. The Valar too hide themselves away from the trials and tribulations to come in Middle-earth, raising the mountain-walls of the Pelóri to sheer and dreadful heights, and set the Enchanted Isles a in the Shadowy Seas before Tol Eressëa.
Thus it was that as Mandos foretold to them in Araman the Blessed Realm was shut against the Noldor; and of the many messengers that in after days sailed into the West none came ever to Valinor – save one only: the mightiest mariner of song.
:love:
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Post by Sassafras »

Beautiful summary, V. :love:

<I would have said last night to go ahead and post it ... but my dratted dsl connection decided to take the plunge into the abyss :x>

Brief comment on this quote:
Manwë raising his head as though hearing a voice far off can only be interpreted as Eru revealing to him more of the divine plan then had been previously revealed to this Vala, who is repeatedly described as knowing the most of Eru’s mind. The bolded words are highly significant, to me at least. For the price could be no other. Is Manwë saying that in fact only one reality is possible, that no other paths could have been tread?


Again, we (I) are thrown back into the conundrum of what is predeterminded.
It's a strange paradoxical mixture that Tolkien gives us. I know that he states quite clearly in a few places free will drives the tale ... but I still don't understand how that can be when Doom or Fate so obviously plays such a large part.

I, for one, am glad that Tolkien didn't abandon the 'flat earth', starlight and the Two Trees ... it would have made for a lesser tale IMO.

A more complete response to follow when I'm not rushing to get a post in before my connection looses sync. The new modem should arrive today. <fingers crossed>
Image

Ever mindful of the maxim that brevity is the soul of wit, axordil sums up the Sil:


"Too many Fingolfins, not enough Sams."

Yes.
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Sassafras
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Post by Sassafras »

I'll just talk to myself here ... :D


...for the Sun was set as a sign for the awakening of Men and the waning of the Elves, but the Moon cherishes their memory

:cry:

Except for the gender reversal, Tolkien's Sun and Moon remind me of Greek mythology with Phoebus, the sun god riding his chariot across the sky and the moon goddess, Artemis, the huntress. Strangely enough (or perhaps not) in Norse mythology, Mani, the Moon deity is male. He pulls the moon across the sky every night pursued by the wolf, Hati: Sunna,the Sun goddess, drives her chariot across the sky pursued by another wolf, Skoll. When Skoll finally catches and consumes Sunna we shall have Götterdämmerung.

But I digress ...

Then for a while the world had moonlight, and many things stirred and woke that had waited long in the sleep of Yavanna.

Would 'the many things that had waited long in sleep' mean that Yavanna intuitively knew the Light of the Trees must give way to other forms of Light? Else why would she create things which sleep? This makes me think again that these things are meant to be. That the poisoning of the Trees and the making of the Silmarils was meant to happen. Or perhaps not those exact acts, but acts which would achieve the same purpose.

How does the changing Light affect the Elves?

But the Elves of the Outer Lands looked up in delight; and even as the Moon rose above the darkness in the west, Fingolfin let blow his silver trumpets and began his march into Middle-earth, and the shadow if his host went long and black before him.

:love:

Getting ahead of myself a little ... in the next chapter it says about the Sun ... and the changing and ageing of all things was hastened exceedingly...

Changing from Starlight to Sunlight alters the quantity, if not also the quality, of Elven lifespans and signifies the beginning of the end ... their waning.

All for the sake of Man.

I have to wonder why the Valar feel so threatened that they hide Valinor.
I don't see why Morgoth's failed attempt to asault Tilion could be considered to pose a severe enough threat ... after all, his power dispersed, hampered by sunlight, his movements constrained ... how could he threaten Valinor NOW more than any time in the past?

Although it does give Tolkien reason for beautiful prose ... the Enchanted Isles were set, an all the seas about them were filled with shadow and bewilderment. And these isles were strung as a net in the Shadowy Seas from the north to the south, before Tol Eressëa, the Lonely Isle, is reached by one sailing west.
Image

Ever mindful of the maxim that brevity is the soul of wit, axordil sums up the Sil:


"Too many Fingolfins, not enough Sams."

Yes.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Sassafras wrote:I'll just talk to myself here ... :D
I'm more then happy to talk to you, my dear Sassy. I was beginning to wonder whether anyone wanted to talk about Tolkien at all, let alone the Silmarillion. ;)

I would still encourage people to post comments about the previous chapter(s) as well as the current one. :)
Except for the gender reversal, Tolkien's Sun and Moon remind me of Greek mythology with Phoebus, the sun god riding his chariot across the sky and the moon goddess, Artemis, the huntress. Strangely enough (or perhaps not) in Norse mythology, Mani, the Moon deity is male. He pulls the moon across the sky every night pursued by the wolf, Hati: Sunna,the Sun goddess, drives her chariot across the sky pursued by another wolf, Skoll. When Skoll finally catches and consumes Sunna we shall have Götterdämmerung.

But I digress ...
But an interesting and pertinent digression, Sass. I remember when I first read LOTR, being surprised that the moon was being described as male and the sun and female, because in both the Greek mythology and pagan traditions that I was familiar with, the sun was male and the moon female. I was not I (and still really am not) particularly familiar with Norse mythology, but it certainly had a strong influence on Tolkien. I must admit to a certain affinity with the idea that the Sun was female and the Moon male because in my experience that is accurate (and I'll say no more about that).
Then for a while the world had moonlight, and many things stirred and woke that had waited long in the sleep of Yavanna.

Would 'the many things that had waited long in sleep' mean that Yavanna intuitively knew the Light of the Trees must give way to other forms of Light? Else why would she create things which sleep? This makes me think again that these things are meant to be. That the poisoning of the Trees and the making of the Silmarils was meant to happen. Or perhaps not those exact acts, but acts which would achieve the same purpose.
Sass, this is how I've come to look at it. The Valar certainly knew well the outline of the story of the Arda. I look at the "Vision" that Eru showed them of the Music made real as a little bit like the longer "trailer" that Peter Jackson put together before making the LOTR films in order to convince a studio to back him. The Valar have a basic idea of how the story is going to play out in broad strokes, but they are fuzzy at best at the details (except Mandos, of course).

In this particular case, they certainly knew that the main drama of Arda was going to play out in Middle-earth. They knew that would be where Men would arise. Let's go back for a moment to the beginning of the long ages that the Valar dwelt in bliss.

Through long ages the Valar dwelt in bliss in the light of the Trees beyond the Mountains of Aman, but all Middle-earth lay in a twilight under the stars. While the Lamps had shone, growth began there which now was checked, because all was again dark. But already the oldest living things had arisen: in the seas the great weeds, and on earth the shadow great trees; and in the valleys of the nigh-cald hills there were dark creatures old and strong. To those lands and forests the Valar seldom came, save only Yavanna and Oromë; and Yavanna would walk there in shadows, grieving because the growth and promise of the Spring of Arda was stayed. ANd she set a sleep upon many things that had arisen in the Spring, so that they should not age, but should wait for a time of awakening that yet should be.

So its not quite correct to say that she "made things which sleep." Rather, she made things in the original Spring of Arda and then later set a sleep on them after Melkor's original attacks forced the Valar to retreat to Valinor, allowing the growth to continue at some later date, simply because she could not bear to see the things that she made die without coming to fruition.

But (and this thought is hitting me like a freight train even as I am typing this) that leads to the obvious conclusion that once the Valar retreated to Valinor and set themselves up so cozy and Light, the Darkening of Valinor (and the Rape of the Silmarils) became necessary for the successful conclusion of Eru's plan, since otherwise the Valar would have had no motivation to provide light to Middle-earth.
How does the changing Light affect the Elves?[ /quote]

Now there is a provocative question. I'll have to think about that some more, and get back to you (though I note that you yourself begin to answer your own question in this very post.

...for the Sun was set as a sign for the awakening of Men and the waning of the Elves, but the Moon cherishes their memory

:cry:


Getting ahead of myself a little ... in the next chapter it says about the Sun ... and the changing and ageing of all things was hastened exceedingly...

Changing from Starlight to Sunlight alters the quantity, if not also the quality, of Elven lifespans and signifies the beginning of the end ... their waning.

All for the sake of Man.
Its interesting that Anar's other name was Vása, the Feart of Fire, that awakens and consumes. I'm trying to put together the fact that that which awakens and consumes was a sign of the awakening of Men, with the fact that Men were fated to be short-lived and "should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein" as was said back in "Of the Beginning of Days. But this statement back in that chapter seems to loom larger and larger to me the more I think about it

they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unit the last and smallest

See, if I can comment about previous chapters, certainly other people can too. ;) But I suppose I should postpone any further discussion "Of Men" until the following chapter. :)
I have to wonder why the Valar feel so threatened that they hide Valinor.
I don't see why Morgoth's failed attempt to assault Tilion could be considered to pose a severe enough threat ... after all, his power dispersed, hampered by sunlight, his movements constrained ... how could he threaten Valinor NOW more than any time in the past?
Sass, I think that this ties in to the :roll: that I made to the idea that the Valar forbore from attacking Melkor out of fear of hurting pool fragile Men (who had not even arisen yet). This may be pure sacrilege, but I think that to a certain extent Fëanor was correct; the Valar had grown complacent over the long ages of Bliss in Valinor under the Holy Light of the Trees and were simply not up for a battle with Melkor. I think they were completely shocked by his assault on that which they held most precious, and wanted nothing more then to remove themselves from the drama that would play out on Middle-earth.

And of course, though I don't think the Valar themselves thought this way, the Hiding of Valinor was another necessary step for the Plan to proceed as planned.
Although it does give Tolkien reason for beautiful prose ... the Enchanted Isles were set, an all the seas about them were filled with shadow and bewilderment. And these isles were strung as a net in the Shadowy Seas from the north to the south, before Tol Eressëa, the Lonely Isle, is reached by one sailing west.
That's more then enough reason for me. :love: I'm glad I am not the only one who appreciates the prose of the Silmarillion. I am almost embarrassed to admit how much it resonates with me. :oops:
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Post by Alatar »

Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:
Sassafras wrote:I'll just talk to myself here ... :D
I'm more then happy to talk to you, my dear Sassy. I was beginning to wonder whether anyone wanted to talk about Tolkien at all, let alone the Silmarillion. ;)
I apologise to both of you, and I really do intend to participate, but the problem is that your posts are so thorough and well reasoned that it feels clumsy to stomp in here with an ill-considered post. I feel the need to actually go and read the chapters afresh, with a little time to digest, then more to formulate a response. By the time I get around to it, the discussion has invariably moved on, or others have expressed more eloquently what I had hoped to say.

It seems childish to post here every couple of days just to say "What Ath/Voronwë/Sass said". Please be assured that I am reading along and fascinated, even if I don't always say so.

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Post by Sassafras »

Alatar, your posts are never ill-considered. Please jump in, even if only to respond briefly to a single thought. None of us are scholars here (well, Voronwë is an exception :D ) but I certainly am not. My responses are primarily emotional ... and only after that do I make the attempt to be reasonable :D :D :D We need, (I) need) to listen to other points of view ... because that's what makes the dialogue interesting.
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Ever mindful of the maxim that brevity is the soul of wit, axordil sums up the Sil:


"Too many Fingolfins, not enough Sams."

Yes.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

What Sass said. ;)
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Post by truehobbit »

The same for me as for Alatar, I must say. (Well, not the shyness-part, but the 'can't keep up'-part. :P )
I love to discuss Tolkien, but there are other great threads to read, too. ;)
By the time I get round to reading the next chapter, the discussion is far advanced, so by the time I've caught up reading the posts, the next chapter is up! :blackeye:
But it's true that the current chapters don't have much content, so it's ok to proceed swiftly, especially as we can still discuss back issues. :)


So, back to the Sindar:
Ath wrote:I see the early starlight of Arda as being unlike anything gracing our night skies, and imagine the resulting "illumination" as being more closely akin to moonlight. Here, where I live, when the moon is full and the air is clear, I can walk through our wood and meadow without the need of any other source of light. The light itself is incredibly magical to me.....silver-white, which causes the familiar colours of objects I see every day to take on different hues, softer and more subtle. Actually, the scene from the FOTR EE, where Frodo and Sam are watching the departing Elves, comes very close to how I imagine Tolkien's starlight before the Sun and Moon:
Ath, I ended up imagining the starlight of the Elves just like in that picture you posted, too!
My immediate response to "only starlight", i.e. nightly darkness, obviously wouldn't work, so I was picturing it a bit brighter - bright enough to at least see something, like in that pic. But I still find that depressingly dark!
Sure, in the safe knowledge that the sun will be up again tomorrow, it's a very romantic light, and I've always enjoyed dusk - but to imagine it's always like this and never gets any lighter makes me want to scream!

I'll read the posts on the next chapter later! :)
but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

I am re-reading LOTR in my sick bed, and I was reminded of this passage, in Three Is Company, when Frodo and friends meet Gindor and his company:

The hobbits sat in the shadow by thewayside.Before long the Elves came down the lane towards the valley. They bassed slowly, and the hobbits could see the starlight glimmering on their hair and in their eyes. They bore no lights, yet as they walked a shimmer, like the light of the moon above the rim of the hills before it rises seemed to fall about their feet.

:love:

I also noticed this line in the song the Elves sing, which I think would have given Tolkien trouble had he tried go through with his plan to change "the absurd business of Sun and the Moon".

Oh stars that in the Sunless Year
With shining hand by her were sown
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

truehobbit wrote:My immediate response to "only starlight", i.e. nightly darkness, obviously wouldn't work, so I was picturing it a bit brighter - bright enough to at least see something, like in that pic. But I still find that depressingly dark!
Sure, in the safe knowledge that the sun will be up again tomorrow, it's a very romantic light, and I've always enjoyed dusk - but to imagine it's always like this and never gets any lighter makes me want to scream!
Hobby, I'll let Tom Bombadil of all people answer this:

'When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless -- before the Dark Lord came from Outside
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Post by Sassafras »

I reread the chapter again,

But neither the Sun nor the Moon can recall the light that was of old, that came from the Trees before they were touched by the poison of Ungoliant That light lives now in the Silmarils alone.

and remembered this ...

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

And was struck by the thought that here again is an example of Evil being turned to Good effect ... in that the light of the Sun and the Moon is a amalgam of Ungoliant's poison and the Light of the Two Trees ... and how Melkor, in a very direct way, is responsible for the Valar's need to illuminate Arda. He tried to extinguish all Light and only suceeded in bringing a new, albeit less pure, source of Light into being.

No matter how hard Melkor tries to utterly destroy ... Eru always finds a way to use that evil motivation and transform it into something other ... something good.
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Ever mindful of the maxim that brevity is the soul of wit, axordil sums up the Sil:


"Too many Fingolfins, not enough Sams."

Yes.
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Post by Roccondil »

truehobbit wrote:My immediate response to "only starlight", i.e. nightly darkness, obviously wouldn't work, so I was picturing it a bit brighter - bright enough to at least see something, like in that pic. But I still find that depressingly dark!
Sure, in the safe knowledge that the sun will be up again tomorrow, it's a very romantic light, and I've always enjoyed dusk - but to imagine it's always like this and never gets any lighter makes me want to scream!
I don't normally like to introduce "science" as such into these discussions as it is usually not appropriate (IMO), but in this instance I think it has something to say about how the Elves might see the night sky.

Henry Gee, in the book “The Science of Middle-Earth” has a chapter, “The Eyes of Legolas Greenleaf” which makes some interesting calculations concerning Elvish vision. His primary point of reference for this is the accurate view that Legolas had of the men with Éomer over the plains of Rohan.

Gee calculated that Legolas was able to resolve objects that were only 8 seconds of arc apart. Taking the normal ability of humans to resolve only down to 12 minutes of arc, this makes the resolving power of elvish eyes some 90 times more powerful than human eyes.

Gee also notes that both the light collecting abilities and/or the image processing abilities of the Elvish brain would have to be similiarly advanced in order to make sense of the extra acuity that they possessed. Their irises, for instance, might be able to expand much more than human eyes in order to collect more light.

What might this therefore tell us about how the Elves perceived the night sky?

Well, firstly, Gee says, they would be able to perceive the motion of the stars and planets much more than we can. Secondly they would be able to resolve stars that would be invisible to our eyes. Finally, it seems to me, the sky that they perceived would be much more like the night sky that one sees through a telescope. The sky would fillled with thousands more stars than we can normally see. Their motions through the sky would be visible to an elf standing still for a few moments.

A very different vision to that seen by mortal Men.
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Post by scirocco »

A brilliant point, Roccondil. Sorry to continue the "scientific" discussion, but wouldn't the greater resolving power of the lenses of the Elves' eyes also mean that they were a "brighter" lens than Men's eyes? In other words, not only would the Elves have some of the blackness that we see between individual stars filled in, but that stars that both they and we see would appear brighter to them? So a clear night sky that would cause us to pick our way around obstacles if there was no Moon, might appear as bright as perhaps a cloudy day to them?

If this is feasible, I feel much more comfortable with the whole idea of thousands of years of existence under a sky with no Sun or Moon! (This doesn't help the poor old Men or Dwarves, though!)
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