Why did Frodo refuse to fight?

[superwizard]

Well this thread is pretty straight forward. After getting rid of The Ring Frodo pretty much refuses to harm anyone or anything and didn't even want to wear a sword to the ceremony. I always knew that was important but quite frankly after reading the book a gazillion times I still haven't figured out why or what it means. I'm at my wits end on this matter and I would really appreciate some help!
Thanks in advance

[narya]

Why fight individuals when you have fought and killed Evil incarnate? Everything else would seem trivial. Especially if striking the most profound blow you could think of against evil, by destroying the ringleader, still didn't get rid of evil in the world. It was still there when he got back to the Shire. The lesson Frodo learned was that you can't rid the world of evil or make the world safe. You can only do your little part, and he had already done all that he had left in him to do.

I don't recall where it was that he refused to wear the sword. Was that at the coronation? At that point, he may have just been forming his understanding of the futility of trying to make the world perfect, and may have just been immensely tired of fighting.

[MithLuin]

So you think it started at Mount Doom?

Frodo never kills anyone in the entire book. He stabs the foot of the cave troll in Moria, but it is not mentioned that he killed an orc (whereas, Sam did). He cut off the barrow-wight's hand. He tried to stab the Witch-King on Weathertop, but that didn't go over so well . He brandished his sword at the Ford.

And then of course he used Sting to intimidate Gollum. But he also used the threat of the Ring to acheive the same.

In the Tower of Cirith Ungol, he realized the Ring could trick him into mistaking Sam for an orc. At that point, he knew he wasn't really fit to have a sword any more. He carried one to keep Sam happy (and in case they needed it), but once they left the road and were going to the Mountain cross country, he dropped the sword into a pit as well (proclaiming 'I'll be an orc no more!' since he got rid of the rest of the costume as well). He knew it would be a bad idea for him to be armed when they got to the end of that road....but that it would be okay to trust Sam with Sting.

His refusal of a weapon afterwards is to show the profound change that has come over him. He knows what he became, under the influence of the Ring, and he does not feel right having a weapon or standing in judgement of anyone (note his treatment of Saruman and Wormtongue). He also has an appreciation of the value of life (since he came so close to losing his). But that isn't why he wants no killing in the Shire - he wants to spare the hobbits from becoming killers. Merry and Pippin, who have seen more of war than him, realize that sometimes you have to fight.

[axordil]

Killing someone is one of the strongest examples of the will to power there is. As Clint Eastwood put it in Unforgiven, "you kill someone, you take away all they got and all they ever will." Frodo could only carry the Ring as far as he did because he had NO interest in power...even, ultimately, the power to protect himself. He's in effect a martyr who gets to keep walking around for a bit before he goes off to his eventual healing and peace.

That's really the flip side of why he can't stay in the Shire. He can no longer operate by the same moral code as the rest of the hobbits, even his friends. It's not his home anymore, because he no longer has a home in Middle-earth.

[superwizard]

I see Thank you for helping me understand Frodo a bit better everyone!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I might have something to add about this. Maybe. We'll see.

[superwizard]

Please do V

[Primula Baggins]

I'm having trouble formulating my thoughts on this, because it involves using a word that carries a lot of implications I don't intend.

The word is "holy." Frodo does not do violence because he has become holy—not in the sense of being religious, but in the sense of being set apart. He is alive and his quest succeeded only because Eru intervened, and that set him aside from the rest of the hobbits. In a way he is not in our world at all, any more; in only a few years that will become exactly true.

[vison]

Very good post, Prim.

It exactly nails one of the few things I didn't love about LOTR: the interference of God.

However, it's a minor quibble.

I think Frodo would have been "set apart" anyway. I think it WAS Frodo, nothing else.

[superwizard]

He is alive and his quest succeeded only because Eru intervened, and that set him aside from the rest of the hobbits.

What do you mean? Sorry for my ignorance but I don't understand

[Voronwë the Faithful]

What she means is that when Frodo was unable to cast the Ring into the Crack of Doom, Eru intervened in the form of Gollum taking the Ring and then "falling" off the side whilst dancing for joy (on other words, the hand of God pushed Gollum over the side).

Prim, your thoughts are obviously similar to mine own, and I too am having a hard time putting them in words (which is why I said that I might have something more to say about this, but that I wasn't sure).

Frodo is certainly "ennobled" by his experience (and even by his suffering). I don't wan't to say that he has grown "above" the worldly task of fighting and even bearing weapons, but he has certainly gone beyond it.

[MithLuin]

For people who are interested in this (what happened to Frodo on the Quest?), I would recommend the thread Frodo's Kitchen in the Books forum of TORc, as well as its sequel.

For those who are not familar with those thread, it's a bunch of ladies discussing Frodo and Sam (and all things hobbity) with an emphasis on the spiritual side of the story. The discussion coincided with the release of the movies, so there are discussions of the movie treatment and comparisons of that to the books.

And even though I don't know where to look for it, I do recall conversations that focussed on (for instance) Frodo's transformation when Gollum attacked him on the slopes of Mount Doom. It was called (insightfully) an 'unholy transfiguration.' I don't recall the discussion of the Scouring, probably because I did not take part in it.

Well, enjoy!

[superwizard]

Thanks for answering V. I never did see it that way (that Gollum's intervention was from Eru). Now I understand what you're talking about Prim! I won't lie to you guys all this is pretty complicated for me especially because I don't really know much about the spiritual side of LOTR.

Thanks for the Link Mith!

[Erunáme]

I don't recall where it was that he refused to wear the sword. Was that at the coronation? At that point, he may have just been forming his understanding of the futility of trying to make the world perfect, and may have just been immensely tired of fighting.

It was at that first formal-type dinner with Aragorn I believe...before they had gotten back to Minas Tirith.

[MithLuin]

<waves> Hi Eru!

(I just felt like saying hi...I don't think I've seen you around for awhile; I guess I've been reading the wrong threads)

Yes, it is the field of Cormallen, just as Eruname said. After Frodo and Sam meet Aragorn and we have the Long live the Halflings! Praise them with great praise!, they have to dress for a dinner.

Frodo and Sam were led apart and brought to a tent, and there their old raiment was taken off, but folded and set aside with hounor; and clean linen was given to them. Then Gandalf came and in his arms, to the wonder of Frodo, he bore the sword and the elven-cloak and the mithril-coat that had been taken from him in Mordor. For Sam he brought a coat of gilded mail, and his elven-cloak all healed of the soils and hurts that it had suffered; and then he laid before them two swords.
'I do not wish for any sword,' said Frodo.
'Tonight at least you should wear one,' said Gandalf.
Then Frodo took the small sword that had belonged to Sam, and had been laid at his side in Cirith Ungol. 'Sting I gave to you Sam,' he said.
'No, master! Mr. Bilbo gave it to you, and it goes with his silver coat; he would not wish anyone else to wear it now.'
Frodo gave way; and Gandalf, as if he were their esquire, knelt and girt the sword-belts about them, and then rising he set circlets of silver upon their heads. And when they were arrayed they went to the great feast; and they sat at the King's table with Gandalf, and King Éomer of Rohan, and the Prince Imrahil and all the chief captains; and there also were Gimli and Legolas.

Here, the decision seems very abrupt, and he lets himself be talked out of it by Gandalf and Sam. He wears Sting, as a ceremonial weapon for the night.

But earlier....

'Wake up, Master!' [Sam] said. 'Time for another start.'
As if roused by a sudden bell, Frodo rose quickly, and stood up and looked away southwards; but when his eyes beheld the Mountain and the desert he quailed again.
'I can't manage it, Sam,' he said. 'It is such a weight to carry, such a weight.'
Sam knew before he spoke, that it was vain, and that such words might do more harm than good, but in his pity he could not keep silent. 'Then let me carry it a bit for you, Master,' he said. 'You know I would, and gladly, as long as I have any strength.'
A wild light came into Frodo's eyes. 'Stand away! Don't touch me!' he cried. 'It is mine, I say. Be off!' His hand strayed to his sword-hilt. But then quickly his voice changed. 'No, no, Sam,' he said sadly. 'But you must understand. It is my burden, and no one else can bear it. It is too late now, Sam dear. You can't help me in that way again. I am almost in its power now. I could not give it up, and if you tried to take it I should go mad.'
Sam nodded. 'I understand,' he said. 'But I've been thinking, Mr. Frodo, there's other things we might do without. Why not lighten the load a bit? We're going that way now, as straight as we can make it.' He pointed to the Mountain. 'It's no good taking anything we're not sure to need.'
Frodo looked again towards the Mountain. 'No,' he said, 'we shan't need much on that road. And at its end nothing.' Picking up his orc-shield he flung it away and threw his helmet after it. Then pulling off the grey cloak he undid the heavy belt and let it fall to the ground, and the sheathed sword with it. The shreds of the black cloak he tore off and scattered.
'There, I'll be an orc no more,' he cried, 'and I'll bear no weapon, fair or foul. Let them take me, if they will!'

So at Cormallen, he is merely repeating his decision here. That is why the words spring so easily to his mouth, without discussion (the decision had been made). Frodo gave up weapons as an act of surrender. He knew that very little was still in his control (not even his own actions, wholly), and he was submitting to that, accepting it.

Very few people, reading LotR once or even twice, would pick up on the 'spiritual' undertones. Tolkien does keep it very subtle and low-key...always in the background or off-stage. But it is there, and once you know about it, you can't ignore it (sorry, vison!) God, in the form of Providence, does play a role in the story.

Frodo was meant to have the Ring, and not by Sauron, as Gandalf explains in the beginning. The task of the Ringbearer was appointed for Frodo, as Elrond declares at the Council. Aragorn is convinced that it will not be possible for anyone to gainsay Frodo at the Falls of Rauros, because fate has led him to be the Ringbearer. Gollum is only present at the end because no one who had the chance (Bilbo, Sauron, Shelob, Aragorn, Gandalf, the elves of Mirkwood, orcs, Frodo, Faramir, Sam...) killed him.

But it wasn't just fate (or divine intervention) that tripped up Gollum. The power of the Ring itself was at work

'Down, down!' he gasped, clutching his hand to his breast, so that beneath the cover of his leather shirt he clasped the Ring. 'Down, you creeping thing, and out of my path! Your time is at an end. You cannot betray me or slay me now.'
Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice.
'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'
The crouching shape backed away, terror in its blinking eyes, and yet at the same time insatiable desire.

We are hearing the voice of Frodo, the Ring-lord...not a very pleasant person! <shudder>
But in the end, Gollum was his undoing Frodo has no desire or inclination for power and control - so how can the Ring tempt him? It has nothing to offer him... At first, he is fearful, so it offers him the ability to hide, but he catches on to that by Weathertop. But when he meets Gollum...a chink in his armor appears. How can he control this creature? For control him he must.... And so he threatens him with the Ring. He tells Gollum that he will put on the Ring, and command Gollum to leap to his death. He doesn't really mean it, but he is starting to think in those directions...make threats to ensure loyalty, and think what the power of the Ring could do for him. It is this chink which the Ring exploits, so that Frodo, a very mild and peace-loving hobbit, is transformed into this creature, imperiously ordering Gollum down and away. No trace of pity does Sam see in this vision.

But the Ring brought about its own end - Frodo used it here (and to hold Gollum's promise long ago). It has no choice but to use its power to enforce what he has said... And so when Gollum attacks, he must be cast into the fire. He just happens to take the Ring with him....

Providence made sure Gollum was there, at the Crack of Doom. Frodo (and the Ring) made sure he slipped and fell.

But to get back to the original question...assuming Frodo remembers all this...it is not surprising he is in no hurry to pick a fight or carry a weapon. He knows what he is (was) capable of, and he wants to reject all of that. The only way to beat the Ring is total abnegation of power, and while he didn't quite pull that off on Mount Doom, he is still struggling with that afterwards.

[narya]

Mithluin, thanks for the quotes. I keep lending people my LOTR books, so I never have them handy to consult.

Frodo does not do violence because he has become holy—not in the sense of being religious, but in the sense of being set apart.

I've always thought the hobbits, as a race, were more holy, more angelic. I've been reading Harry Potter (my daughter seduced me to the dark side, to mix metaphors) and I've been comparing Harry with two other reluctant heroes - Frodo and Bilbo. Harry lacks the patience, longsuffering, peacefulness, and nobility of the hobbits. Being an extreme pacifist myself, it is hard for me to relate to the more violence-accepting members of the Fellowship (or real life for that matter). I think I'm rambling. Time for bed.

[Alatar]

Very few people, reading LotR once or even twice, would pick up on the 'spiritual' undertones. Tolkien does keep it very subtle and low-key...always in the background or off-stage. But it is there, and once you know about it, you can't ignore it (sorry, vison!) God, in the form of Providence, does play a role in the story.

I suppose the issue here is wehether you believe that all those spiritual undertones are there in a deliberate fashion or subconsciously. I believe that Tolkien was deeply spiritual and that this informed his work, but I don't believe the spiritual layers are as cohesively tied together as you and others do.

I like to think that sometimes Tolkien said something just cause it sounded cool, without any ulterior motive. Once written however, he often justified after the fact when questioned.

I don't think thats the same thing as having a spiritual substrata to the novel.

[superwizard]

<creeps into thread>
notices he doesn't understand what's even being discussed
<creeps away>

[axordil]

He knows what he is (was) capable of, and he wants to reject all of that. The only way to beat the Ring is total abnegation of power, and while he didn't quite pull that off on Mount Doom, he is still struggling with that afterwards.

Part of the aftereffects of the Ring's erosion of his mind and will is going to be, for lack of a better term, survivor's guilt. Frodo knows, beyond all reason, that Gollum died in his stead, indeed in everybody's stead. Gollum did (albeit "accidentally") what he meant to do and couldn't.

There is a thread in LOTR and The Hobbit concerning the use of weapons and the need to kill--orcs are singled out as delighting in fashioning weapons--or not. JRRT had deep-rooted ambivalence towards warfare, even the noblest kind, after his own experience in the trenches in WWI. That can't help but come out. Frodo has been to hell and back too, and understands the conundrum--war is necessary to defend against those who would destroy you, but is at the same time an inherently degrading affair even for the good guys...if there are any.

Ultimately, they who live by the sword die by it, as a rule. Frodo feels that he should have died, to be frank.

[MithLuin]

Agreed, ax.

Here is what Impenitent wrote in Frodo's Kitchen:

• The wearing of the Ring opened a door to Frodo into an alternate dimension. You recall when he was wearing it at Weathertop he could see the features of the Nazgûl; and at the Ford he could see Glorfindel uncloaked, as he appeared in the spiritual or timeless dimension (that same place where the Nazgûl existed timelessly, undying).
  
  Frodo actually was pushed through that door by the Nazgûl blade, IMO. The wound caused him to commence 'fading' into that dimension. The wound healed, but as he himself said, "it will never really heal".
  
  Gandalf at Rivendell noticed that: "....there was a faint change just a hint as it were of transparency, about him, and especially about the left hand that lay outside upon the coverlet." and his thoughts about it at that time were: "...to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can."
  
  Frodo's spirit, his soul, was permanently changed IMO by that injury and the wearing of the Ring during the time of its history when it was at it's most powerful.
  
  His hobbit spirit, which was never intended to exist in that other, timeless dimension, had been permanently altered IMO. He was no longer completely, truly a hobbit; part of him had entered a dimension that was altogether alien to his nature, and in some ways that constitutes damage, although as Gandalf said, he did not come to evil.
  
  In some ways, Frodo's spirit no longer belonged in the Shire; he had grown, as Saruman noted, to the point where he could no longer live as a hobbit.
  
  Early in the book it notes Frodo's 'elvish' air, repeated again by Faramir in Ithilien (after the wounding, when Frodo's spirit had already been changed by the encounter with this alternate dimension); at the end, his spirit was transmuted to be more like that of the elves; able to exist in the physical, tangible dimension, just as his hobbit nature is intended--but also existing in that spiritual plane, which is entirely alien to his hobbit nature.
  
  Perhaps that is another reason Frodo had to depart, to go West, where there were others who could understand this alien part of him, and help him.

cpsings4him responded with:

• Our body, souls and 'spirit' (or mind, or consciousness) are all innerconnected. What is done to one element has a connection to the other two. Think for a moment about psychosomatic illnesses...these are literally illnesses that are brought on by our spirit (or mind, or consciousness). I don't believe the three can really be disconnected from each other without a complete transformation of the person (as in my Christian worldview of death...the person is no longer connected to the body - at least not THIS present body - but the soul and the 'spirit'(at least on some level, since in my worldview they remain the same 'who' that they always were and were known as...just in a different dimention/plane/etc/whatever). In Frodo's case, just as with anyone else who is a triune being (which, for the sake of argument, I think we are assuming the Hobbits are?) what effects the body effects the soul and spirit as well...what effects the soul effects the body and spirit...what effects the spirit effects the body and soul. The Ring definately worked on Frodo's entire 'being' in my humble opinion. It was a physical weight which bore down on him, crushing him more and more physically each day that he bore it. It worked on his mind (spirit, consciousness) (speaking to him, giving him visions, etc. [i.e. he began to see the 'eye' even when he was awake]). It worked on his soul in ways we probably can't even comprehend...and it finally pressed it to the point of giving in to it's will at the end.
  
  Now, while I think his soul definately had scars, I don't believe it was destoyed or missing. He still had it...he just had to learn to live with the differences that were upon it after the quest.
  ...
  Something happened to his soul that changed the very fabric of who he was as a hobbit - and he had to find a way to come to terms and live with the 'new hobbit creature' he was. In fact, as in the above analogy [edited out for brevity], we not only have to figure out how to live as and with the new 'who' that we are, we also have to figure out just 'who' that 'who' is.

A long one from pippinsqueak:

• I don't want to get into a deep discussion about whether there is a difference between being damaged psychologically and having one's soul damaged. I'm an atheist, so my understanding of what people mean by "soul" is probably different from others. Generally I think of the "soul" as the repository of one's conscience, the ability to know right from wrong, to feel compassion, to love and to accept love, that sort of thing.
  
  Throughout Frodo's long journey we see him growing in pity, so that in the end he can feel pity even for someone as horrid as Wormtongue, and can offer him refuge from Saruman. This ability I think is an indication of the growth in Frodo's soul, but also of the effect the Ring has had upon it. Frodo's capacity to feel pity has grown because he has suffered. Frodo forgives the evil in Wormtongue because he has experienced evil in himself (his thoughts when the Ring was tempting him and he finally claimed it), and he recognizes that there is evil in everyone, but also that everyone deserves the opportunity to redeem themselves. (we see a similar growth in capacity in Sam, when he spares Gollum on Mount Doom because he has an understanding of how the lust for the Ring has twisted him).
  
  But I think Frodo also sees continuing within himself this capacity for evil that the Ring has revealed. The Ring claimed him and briefly twisted him for its own purposes - the Ring made him lust for power and domination, and for a few moments before Gollum bit the Ring from his hand he experienced the beginning of the fulfillment of that desire. And he longs for it still at times. Sam hears him say back at Bag End 'It is gone forever and now all is dark and empty.' That must have been a torture to his soul, to still have this lust for the Ring live on in him.
  
  When Frodo returns to the Shire he says 'It feels more like falling asleep again.' I don't know what he means by this for sure, but I think it does reflect on the changes he has undergone. I wonder whether he means that during the Quest he was constantly challenged to always act - I'm grasping for the right word here - honorably or morally, but when he returns to the Shire he knows he is returning to a place where such issues are seldom considered. It seems the Hobbits have a natural bent towards goodness and peacefulness - there seems to be little or no crime in the Shire. But we also know they have a tendency towards petty gossip, and towards being concerned with the basics in life - good food, good company, a comfortable home. Frodo has discovered there is more to the world than this, that there are sometimes great sacrifices that must be made for great causes, and that evil can do its work by appealing to these simple and aparently innocent desires. He sees the good that is possible in everyone, but now he sees the possibility of evil as well, and that the Shire is asleep to this danger. Perhaps I'm completely off base and rambling, but that statement of Frodo's has always bothered me, and I've always felt I'm missing something Tolkien intended to be fairly obvious.
  
  Perhaps this all ties in to Tolkien's statement in his letters that Frodo would become "ennobled" and so have to leave. Perhaps what he meant by that was that Frodo's moral consciousness would be raised so high above that of the Hobbits that he would be unable to live comfortably with them, to listen to their petty gossip, and their worries about how many eggs their chickens are laying, or whether the wife would be upset if they stayed at the Inn for one more ale.

And finally, from Magpie:

• When I try to picture his experience post-wounding and post-quest I've always seen him burdened by an incredible vision he had trouble dealing with. Like, part of what the ring does is keep things from changing. We see when Frodo is saying good-bye to Sam that he can see the future (just like Frodo to mention that so casually!). In the book "An Unquiet Mind" the author, who is bipolar, describes herself during a deep depression as hearing all the plants in the world screaming as they die all around her. I don't think Frodo's experience was all that violent but he may have suddenly been aware of mortality in ways he hadn't been before. To an elf, for instance, a mortal life must seem very brief, like no time at all. Frodo isn't immortal, and his new vision of things must have been hard to reconcile with everyday life.
  
  I don't mean he was constantly seeing everything as dying, though, because I think his new perspective offered beauty as well. It just might have been, as Leshii described, being able to see two things at once. He may have been a bit like a blind person who's just gained sight; he would need to learn to process that information.

These posts are all from the first page of The Return to Frodo's Kitchen...I should index those threads some day so it's easier to find things in them!