The Common Tongue and Latin

[TolkienJRR]

I am not a student of Latin, but is there any similarity to the "common tongue" used in LOTR and Latin in the medieval west?

[elengil]

Funny you should ask this... I just had this come across my feed this morning. I think it does ultimately answer your question (part 1)

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[elengil]

(part 2)

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[Inanna]

Such fun.

Elengil, for citation and copyright sake (and my interest), can you post a link to that page?

[elengil]

I got it from this
https://www.facebook.com/Fangoddesses/p ... 3083237454
but that is just what's below, a series of screenshots from what looks like tumblr, so the tumblr ID is probably the best source, but I don't have a time/date stamp to hunt it down the exact entry, but this appears to be the right person at least, based on their first post lamenting (understandably) their now viral post https://mirkwoodest.tumblr.com/

[TolkienJRR]

(part 2)

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I think it does answer it thanks. Cool how this happened the same day.

[elengil]

https://mirkwoodest.tumblr.com/post/185 ... -ballsiest

Found the original blog post. LOTS of awesome reference links! Do check it out!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

(part 2)

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I think it does answer it thanks. Cool how this happened the same day.

Maybe you were meant to ask this question, and elengil was meant to come across this description of Tolkien's linguistic shenanigans the same day so that she could answer the question.

And maybe that is an encouraging thought!

[TolkienJRR]

(part 2)

PART (4).jpg

PART (5).jpg

PART (6).jpg

I think it does answer it thanks. Cool how this happened the same day.

Maybe you were meant to ask this question, and elengil was meant to come across this description of Tolkien's linguistic shenanigans the same day so that she could answer the question.

And maybe that is an encouraging thought!

thanks gandalf.

[elengil]

And maybe that is an encouraging thought!

Kinda spooky if you ask me.

[scirocco]

I am not a student of Latin, but is there any similarity to the "common tongue" used in LOTR and Latin in the medieval west?

Phonetically, there's no evidence of it. If there was, you would expect things like having lots of words ending in -ius and -ium. No sign of them, either in the limited vocab of "original" Westron or in its "translated by Tolkien" form used in the book.

And you would also not expect to see the letter K, either, since Latin hardly ever uses it (it uses C for the K sound.) Yet in Westron, Moria was Kubalnarga. And Tolkien even changed the Westron name of Rivendell from Carbandur to Karningul. No way he did that if he wanted it to sound and look like Latin, the exact opposite in fact.

Actually, it was the Elvish languages, Quenya and particularly Sindarin (for Men in Gondor), that were used as the languages of culture, history, education and learning (in relation to the Westron) in the way that Latin was the language of scholarship in relation to English in medieval times. But Quenya was intended to resemble the sound of Finnish, while Sindarin was supposed to have Welsh echoes. Neither could be said to have Latin as a phonetic origin.

Although, ironically, Tolkien does refer to Quenya as a kind of "Elven-latin". But that is nothing to do with its phonetic origins - he is talking about its position within Elvish society, where Sindarin was a daily language and Quenya was the language of history and scholarship.

[Túrin Turambar]

I get the impression that Tolkien didn't have a particularly good relationship with Latin (someone with a better knowledge of the biographies and Letters might have a reference on hand). He was someone who seemed to have a visceral feel for language in the same way a music-lover has a visceral feel for music, and he simply liked the sounds of the Germanic languages, Finnish and Welsh. He was certainly familiar with Latin as the liturgical language of his Church, and he was one of those traditional Catholics who stuck to it post-Vatican II, but I struggle to recall a time where he talked about it. He seemed to feel the same way about it's daughter-languages, too. He could certainly speak some French, but it seems to have had no influence on him either.

[scirocco]

I also had the same impression, but I think that any lack of affinity with Latin was at a professional, philological level. I'm sure I recall hints that the introduction of Latin into England had influences (negative in Tolkien's view) on the development of English itself. (There are influences on Beowulf, I believe). But I really know very little about the history of all that.

At a personal level, Tolkien did speak in Letters of his love for Latin and modern descendants such as Spanish, and as pointed out, he continued to use the Latin liturgy at a time when it was being abandoned. I think it was French that he had less affinity for on a personal level.

I said upthread that the role of Quenya as an "elven-latin" was due to it being in the same role in relation to Sindarin as Latin was to English. But I should have added that he did make an effort to give Quenya some similarities in spelling and look as Latin to match that societal role (even if the sound was to resemble Finnish). Typical Tolkien. Who else but him would go to such trouble.