Could Sam have done it?

[ToshoftheWuffingas]

What, the Sam who took the Ring only when he thought his master dead, who rejected the false visions on the edge of Mordor, who gave up the Ring to his master and wept, who saw hope above the broils of Mordor far up in the heavens, who surrendered his vengeance on Gollum and extended pity though he could find no words for it, who gave his water to Frodo even though in extremis himself, who carried Frodo on his back up the volcano slope when he had at last collapsed?
I think that he might have done.

[vison]

What, the Sam who took the Ring only when he thought his master dead, who rejected the false visions on the edge of Mordor, who gave up the Ring to his master and wept, who saw hope above the broils of Mordor far up in the heavens, who surrendered his vengeance on Gollum and extended pity though he could find no words for it, who gave his water to Frodo even though in extremis himself, who carried Frodo on his back up the volcano slope when he had at last collapsed?
I think that he might have done.

Hm. Well, now I think Sam was the "real" hero of LOTR.

Thanks. All this mind-changing is wearing me out, Tosh. Jeez.

[N.E. Brigand]

There was no rehabilitation for Gollum.

No? No chance of rehabilitation? Not even on the stairs of Cirith Ungol?

In The Lord of the Rings itself, Tolkien writes that Gollum "nearly repents" on the stairs. And in a letter he called his failure to repent (as a result of Sam's comment) the "most tragic moment" in the tale.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

N.E., we are discussing that very letter in the Letters forum. I'd love to see some of your thoughts about the many interesting things that Tolkien had to say in that letter (and the related letter that we are also discussing).

[Impenitent]

Tosh and Faramond - Sam couldn't have done it because, well, no one could have done it, at the end, in the place of its forging and greatest power, when exhausted and worn down and overcome by it.

Frodo couldn't.

I just cannot extend that point to Sam though I acknowledge and honour his stature as 'hero'.

Gollum was essential at the end. It is where the mercy of Frodo and of Sam is rewarded; this is the whole point of their mercy.

[River]

The Ring was poison. Frodo took it freely, but that didn't change the fact that the Ring-bearer needed a bearer of his own. And Sam was it. Would Frodo have been able to fulfill a supporting role, had their places been exchanged? I'm not so sure. There's the personality that's the hero, and the personality that's the sidekick. You can, if you want, put the sidekick in the hero role, but s/he will feel mighty out of place there and probably won't do a good job. Just as the hero would probably make a lousy sidekick. That's just the way of it - every team has a star and everyone else.

This does not, in any way, diminish Sam. If anything, it puts the role of the sidekick, the faithful friend, the supporter, into sharp relief. Frodo carried the Ring, but Sam carried Frodo. Figuratively and then literally.

[ToshoftheWuffingas]

Exactly Impy. It is the whole point of the denouement. I don't think Sam would have done more than Frodo but had Frodo fallen I think Sam would have been granted the same grace via Gollum because of his effort.

[Impenitent]

Cheers, Tosh.

River, I'd never looked at the reverse but you are right, of course! Frodo as sidekick doesn't work either.

[Athrabeth]

I think the names that Tolkien bestowed on Frodo and Sam in one of his drafts of LOTR as well as in the Epilogue pretty much says it all for me.

Bronwe athan Harthad - Endurance beyond Hope, and Harthad Uluithiad - Hope Unquenchable. Ultimately, both those qualities were essential in getting the Ring to the Sammath Naur, and one without the other just wouldn't work. Frodo, through whatever act of grace or fate or genetic code (or perhaps a combination of all three) was able to physically and mentally resist the temptations of the Ring, to keep going until his body and mind were absolutely spent. But he had lost the last shred of his hope long before he stood at the edge of the Cracks of Doom. Sam carried all that hope, like he carried that heavy rucksack of provisions and gear, like he carried Frodo in the end. The torment of the Ring ground Frodo down into a kind of spectre of sheer, naked will that somehow endured right up to his final terrible, inevitable fall, but without the unfailing hope of Master Samwise and the strength that came from that hope, the Ring would not have been carried to the brink of its destruction.

Ax once noted in the Sil thread that the greatest quests in Tolkien's works are never accomplished by a single character. Thinking specifically of the recovery of the Silmaril, would one refer to either Beren or Lúthien as "the sidekick" or "the helper"? It's more like they form a single entity with a single purpose. That's the way I feel about Frodo and Sam. They combine to become "the hero".

[yovargas]

Gee golly, this thread is making me all swoony for Sam all over again.

[BrianIsSmilingAtYou]

Ax once noted in the Sil thread that the greatest quests in Tolkien's works are never accomplished by a single character. Thinking specifically of the recovery of the Silmaril, would one refer to either Beren or Lúthien as "the sidekick" or "the helper"? It's more like they form a single entity with a single purpose. That's the way I feel about Frodo and Sam. They combine to become "the hero".

And those who do evil act alone: Morgoth, Sauron, Ungoliant, Shelob, the Balrog, Smaug, Glaurung, Maeglin, Eöl, Fëanor--even Túrin accomplished evil after he lost Beleg, even when it was not his intent.

There are rare cases where evil beings work together, but it does not last (e.g. Morgoth and Ungoliant).

BrianIs AtYou

[solicitr]

Quite so, Brian- even Saruman never really worked 'with' Sauron. In T's universe Evil = Selfishness- all the way down to Shagrat and Gorbag.

[Athrabeth]

Ax once noted in the Sil thread that the greatest quests in Tolkien's works are never accomplished by a single character. Thinking specifically of the recovery of the Silmaril, would one refer to either Beren or Lúthien as "the sidekick" or "the helper"? It's more like they form a single entity with a single purpose. That's the way I feel about Frodo and Sam. They combine to become "the hero".

And those who do evil act alone: Morgoth, Sauron, Ungoliant, Shelob, the Balrog, Smaug, Glaurung, Maeglin, Eöl, Fëanor--even Túrin accomplished evil after he lost Beleg, even when it was not his intent.

There are rare cases where evil beings work together, but it does not last (e.g. Morgoth and Ungoliant).

Exactly! There's something about the "singular" that Tolkien just doesn't seem to trust - at the very least it's seen as a handicap, and at the highest end of the scale it's represented as horrifically sociopathic. It's interesting though, to consider that infamous duo, Melkor and Ungoliant. In some ways, their partnership adheres to that observation of great quests never being accomplished by one character alone. I suppose if there was ever a "great quest" undertaken with purely evil intent, it would be the destruction of the Trees and the theft of the Silmarils.

Although I'd definitely classify Ungoliant as "the sidekick".

[narya]

Cheers, Tosh.

River, I'd never looked at the reverse but you are right, of course! Frodo as sidekick doesn't work either.

But Frodo was something of a sidekick to Bilbo.

[Impenitent]

Do you think so? I can't make that fit. How do you see it?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Ax once noted in the Sil thread that the greatest quests in Tolkien's works are never accomplished by a single character. Thinking specifically of the recovery of the Silmaril, would one refer to either Beren or Lúthien as "the sidekick" or "the helper"? It's more like they form a single entity with a single purpose. That's the way I feel about Frodo and Sam. They combine to become "the hero".

And those who do evil act alone: Morgoth, Sauron, Ungoliant, Shelob, the Balrog, Smaug, Glaurung, Maeglin, Eöl, Fëanor--even Túrin accomplished evil after he lost Beleg, even when it was not his intent.

There are rare cases where evil beings work together, but it does not last (e.g. Morgoth and Ungoliant).

Exactly! There's something about the "singular" that Tolkien just doesn't seem to trust - at the very least it's seen as a handicap, and at the highest end of the scale it's represented as horrifically sociopathic. It's interesting though, to consider that infamous duo, Melkor and Ungoliant. In some ways, their partnership adheres to that observation of great quests never being accomplished by one character alone. I suppose if there was ever a "great quest" undertaken with purely evil intent, it would be the destruction of the Trees and the theft of the Silmarils.

Although I'd definitely classify Ungoliant as "the sidekick".

Not in the final version of the story, which is what Tolkien intended to include in the Silmarillion. In that version, Ungoliant destroys the Trees on Her own, while Melkor cravenly waits until after the deed is done, and then goes and throws down the thrones of the Valar himself. The really don't work together at any point. I wonder whether Tolkien deliberately changes this to match the dynamic y'all have been discussing (*wishes he could still make changes to Arda Reconstructed*)

[Mrs.Underhill]

Ax once noted in the Sil thread that the greatest quests in Tolkien's works are never accomplished by a single character. Thinking specifically of the recovery of the Silmaril, would one refer to either Beren or Lúthien as "the sidekick" or "the helper"? It's more like they form a single entity with a single purpose. That's the way I feel about Frodo and Sam. They combine to become "the hero".

So well said! And made me swoon even more for Frodo *and* Sam.

And going back to our debate whether Sam could have accomplished the Quest. My original answer was - neither he nor Frodo nor no one in Middle Earth could have accomplished it. But after Choices, given Frodo's burden, Sam would have brought the Ring as far as Frodo did, as Sam truly became Frodo's spiritual equal.
Now I have to take that back. Sam would have never made it as far as Frodo - alone. If Sam would go on to Mt.Doom after Choices, he would fail, he would never make it there because he would be alone, and no one would be there to carry him when the Ring was doing its worst on him.

Frodo and Sam had to do it together to bring the Ring to the brink. But still Gollum was essential in throwing it in. It all was hanging on a thread, on a hope that if there is a way to defeat Sauron, the way will be shown, if they give their all to it.

And I agree Frodo was chosen by fate - but Sam also felt something bigger was going on with him and he had to do his part of it. Yes, love for Frodo played a huge part here, but also a sense of workings of fate. Remember Sam's talk with Gildor and Co, where he voiced it the first time? There was the only way to accomplish to Quest, and they found it by doing all they could in the places fate cast them into.

Could Frodo carry Sam while Sam carried the Ring? If that started that way, maybe. But in how the story unfolded - no. Frodo was too far gone by Choices to be able to see the Ring on Sam and remain sane. They did it the only way they could, both of them.

[vison]

The story is the story of what happened, you know. History. Like the Eagles.

[ToshoftheWuffingas]

True but these 'what might have beens' are instructive and even Tolkien indulged himself a little in the game.

[Mrs.Underhill]

True but these 'what might have beens' are instructive and even Tolkien indulged himself a little in the game.

Oh yes!
Also, the point here is that might-have-beens of failing the Quest comprise about 99.9999% of all scenarios. The point is not that this story could not have played out any other way, because it's written so. The point is, that by internal story logic - it should have gone the other, bad way, but miraculously it didn't. The heroes managed to squueze it into that 0.0001%, and because it was so hard to achieve, their deviation from the optimal path (of being impossibly true and pure) had to be very narrow.
But still even within those 0.0001% there were different ways to accomplish the Quest, and Tolkien considered them. On the Stairs there was still some chance for Gollum to come around, and save Frodo (and Sam!) from the worst of the trauma and of the loss of innocense, and for Gollum himself die with a hope of some redemption.
But the way the things really played out showed how difficult, and practically humanely impossible, was for our heroes to stay on that ideal path, or at least close enough to it. It just made it all much more human and dramatic, with much more at stake.