Too Short?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

The most critical reader of all, myself, now finds many defects, minor and major, but being fortunately under no obligation either to review the book or to write it again, he will pass over these in silence, except one that has been noted by others: the book is too short.

How do people feel about this comment? Is the Lord of the Rings really too short? More to the point, are there any scenes that you wish had been included that weren't, or scenes that should have been longer and more detailed?

I thought of one last night, while reading The Two Towers. I would have loved to have seen a reunion between Faramir and Frodo in Minas Tirith, after the destruction of the Ring. At the end of The Forbidden Pool, Faramir says:

'If ever beyond hope you return to the lands of the living and we re-tell our tales, sitting by a wall in the sun, laughing at old grief, you shall tell me then. Until that time, or some other time beyone the vision of the Seeing-stones of Númenor, farewell!'

And yet, when Frodo does return to the lands of the living -- beyond hope -- and is shown living in a fair house in Minas Tirith with the rest of what is left of the Fellowship, there is nary a mention of any meeting between him and Faramir (who himself has returned from his own darkness). I never felt the lack before, but for some reason this struck me last night. I think it would have been very nice to just have a short paragraph or even just a sentence.

And the meeting again in the lands of the living of Frodo and Faramir -- beyond hope -- was glad and joyful, and they sat by a wall in the sun, laughing at old griefs, retelling tales.

Perhaps with some mention of the shadow that still darkened Frodo's heart, even amongst all of the joy, and maybe even that still darkened Faramir's heart as well, because how could he have recovered fully from the pain and grief that his father caused him?

What say you?

[Alatar]

I'm not sure Voronwë. I often think I could survive with less of the descriptive passages of flora and fauna. When I was youger I would skip over many of the poems. I think many of the things I love most now are the ones I had least time for as a first time reader. I would certainly consider Bombadil to be no great loss, although others consider him a favourite character. Perhaps in another few years I will feel the same?

If I were to create a wish list of things I would like to know more about? Gandalfs battle with the Balrog is powerful because it is so vague but I would have liked to hear more details. How exactly did they battle? Physically, "Ever I smote him" or mentally? With magic "the counter-spell was terrible" or with might? It causes the same problem for me in the film. Effectively we see Gandalf attacking the Balrog, but no great battle. If the Slime Balrog sequence had been filmed perhaps we would have seen more, I don't know. Anyway, that's one sequence I could stand to see more of in the book.

[truehobbit]

Interesting question, Voronwë!

Hmmmh, I think the sentence you added just repeated the previous quote, so there would have been nothing gained (IMO) - and writing down what actually was said would have been impossible, I think, because it would have meant retelling the whole story.

I love the quote you gave, and it makes me picture the reunion in just such a way as it is hoped for by Faramir. The moment he says it, I see them sitting by a wall in the sun, laughing at old grief, and that is quite enough of a happy idea - if it became more than an idea, I think it might lose effect somehow.

Or maybe, they never really got round to that talk! The idea, in TTT, is so beautiful, and necessary at that moment. But back in ordinary life, as it were, I think it's quite possible that there wasn't time for that - or maybe not even the wish! Maybe it would have been something rather not recollected at the time.

I don't know - if we went by everything that has been covered in fanfic, it would seem there are a lot of "missing" scenes. But, for me, even the best Cirith Ungol-fanfics (to name one of the biggest 'missing' scenes) just don't work and are at best superfluous. Some things probably lose effect when spelled out in so many words, rather than left to the imagination.

I guess I shouldn't mind to read more LOTR, but, in spite of the author's own opinion I tend to think that it's neither too long nor too short - just as many words as necessary!

[Whistler]

I've actually thought that LOTR should have been written along the lines of what (I think) is called a "picaresque" novel, in which the main storyline is merely a backdrop for a series of self-contained adventures. Don Quixote is such a novel.

The book begins that way, with the Bombadil chapters. That some people object to these chapters is not due, I think, to the fact that they are inessential to the plot; rather, I think the problem is that the rest of the book is not written in this same manner, and the stylistic change is jarring.

I would have welcomed digressions...not to discuss flora and fauna, but to visit Middle-earth's various races, characters and cultures. Several more volumes might have been devoted to such excursions, and I don't think many true fans would have objected.

[Faramond]

I wouldn't like just a single sentence on the reunion of Frodo and Faramir. Do it properly or do it not at all, I say. And by properly, I mean something that shows how they see each other after the end of the quest. Does Faramir have an subtle insight or observation that might foreshadow more Frodo's eventual loss of the Shire and Middle Earth?

If Tolkien had added more, I would like to have seen more of Arwen and Aragorn in proper narrative form. This would be hard to fit into the narrative flow of the books as he wrote them. Aragorn can't be introduced before the Hobbits meet him, I think. And then is slowly revealed to the reader through the hobbit's eyes. So his relationship with Arwen would really have to be done the same way. But then, how does it fit in? How do we get more than what we get, which is the brief glimpse of them together? Well, Bilbo seemed interested in this romance. He might have known some details and told Frodo about them. But this would be hard to make feel right.

I don't much like the idea of LOTR as a series of self-contained adventures, instead of what it is. Everything affects everything else. All the threads of the story come together in such unexpected ways. In a picaresque novel, Gandalf is great because he has the power to resolve each individual situation, and close it up. In LOTR as it is written, Gandalf is still greater because he can inspire those in each adventure to keep going with the fight, beyond the supposed end of their particular adventure. He is the kindler of spirits.

[vison]

While I agree that the book is too short, there are bits I think are too long, so it evens out. The poetry is dreadful and could have been left out without any damage to the story, as a matter of fact, that would have been an improvement. I often think the entire bit leading up to Bombadil could have been left out, the bath songs and Farmer Maggot, etc. Bombadil was the door through which we entered the story of LOTR, the rest was a kind of Hobbitish prelude that I generally skip when I read it.

As for the movies, well, I would cut every combat scene of every kind down to the same length of time it takes to read about them. I don't know that we needed to see "more" of Gandalf fighting the Balrog, since it was one of those things that Tolkien said without any idea of how it might be portrayed, I think. Indeed, how could it have been? Nothing, IMHO, was more tedious than the scenes with Frodo fighting that stupid troll in Moria. Few things were more tedious than the endless, boring, repetitive scenes of Orcs marching, rampaging, dying, being ugly. That Lurtz creature took up time that could have been devoted to other things, such as the Gift Giving scene in Lothlórien. However, that's neither here nor there.

Yet, for all my moaning and carping about what PJ did wrong, or what Tolkien might or might not have done, I still think the book is Perfect in its way and I am one of the legions of fans who never wanted it to end. So ignore what I wrote above and remember I've read this book at least 120 times and have lost my ability to be objective!

[Frelga]

I second TH. I've read a few fill-in-the-blanks fanfics, and even attempted one myself. Many were quite well written, with sincere emotion and loving detail. Yet it always struck me that whether the writers expanded on the existing clues or boldly invented new material, really everything they had to say was already contained between the blanks in the book. There was nothing added in pages and pages of dialog and action that Tolkien did not revealed in a few brief words.

Although I would've like to know for sure whether the Ringwraiths or Bill Ferny attacked the Pony.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

The poetry is dreadful and could have been left out without any damage to the story, as a matter of fact, that would have been an improvement.

Correction. Most of the poetry is dreadful, but some of it is utterly brilliant. I love, for instance, Galadriel's lament (I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew ... .) And Errantry (which became Bilbo's song about Eärendil), for another. But perhaps that should be topic of another thread.

And fanfic (even good fanfic) by definition does not count. I'm talking about what Tolkien himself might have done, not what anyone else has done. And that goes for the filmmakers as much or more then anyone. I don't want this to deteriorate into a debate about the films.

As for my specific example not being necessary because it just repeats what was said before, sometimes that is not necessarily a bad thing, particularly since it would come 3 or 4 hundred pages later. The purpose would simply be to remind the reader of the connection that was formed between Frodo and Faramir, which in my opinion basically disappears and gets lost in the readers mind with all the other reunions that are shown (with Gandalf, and Merry and Pippin, and Aragorn, and Gimli and Legolas). To me it would be like the brief line in the Silmarillion about Turgon's meeting with Húrin and Huor when he surprisingly leads the legions of Gondolin to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Without it being specifically mentioned, the reader would not tend to think of that joyful reunion, because the greater reunion between Turgon and his brother Fingon. The same could be argued here, that the reader would not think of Frodo's reunion with Faramir without being reminded of it (however briefly) because of the greater reunion with the members of the Fellowship. But there is still a connection between Frodo and Faramir that in my humble opinion would have been worth mentioning (and, as Faramond points out, it might even have been an opportunity to show Farmari as having a subtle insight or observation that might foreshadow more Frodo's eventual loss of the Shire and Middle-earth).

[Túrin Turambar]

Few things were more tedious than the endless, boring, repetitive scenes of Orcs marching […]

Many of my favourite scenes in the movies are the shots of Orcs marching (especially Minas Morgul). Don’t know why I like them – it might just be the power that they radiate. Alternatively, I’m just a megalomaniac…

As to the books, I think that the story pre-Bree and post-Mt. Doom could have been condensed. Tolkien’s lack of planning shows in Book I IMHO. Once he knew where he was going, it would have probably been better to trim the fat and speed up the narrative. Many readers notice how odd the whole ‘you have the One Ring that the Dark Lord needs to complete his plans for world domination, you’d better get it out of the Shire…next Autumn, maybe’ thing is.

[MaidenOfTheShieldarm]

I do not think it is too short, but that does not mean that I would not welcome more.

As vison said, the book is perfect in it's way. However, I would have loved something to follow up on the quote that Voronwë cited. That would have been such a lovely scene, a nice parallel to Gimli, Legolas, Merry, and Pippin's reunion. As Hobby said, I can see it so clearly, just reading that quote. I would have loved more on Éowyn and Faramir's relationship, but that, of course, is just because they are my two favourite characters. It would have been nice to see more of their relationship, especially since it is the only real romance in LOTR. (Note: This is coming from the person who hates throwaway romances at the end of books/movies. Also, I don't count Aragorn/Arwen because that takes place in the wings for the most part.) We discussed in the Éowyn thread that her descision to glory no more in songs of slaying and instead to be a healer (or something to that effect) was her redemption: it would have been nice to see more of that complete about face.

However, as much as there are other parts I would have enjoyed seeing, the book does not feel in anyway incomplete.

A bit off topic, but I disagree with Whistler that it should have been picaresque (sp?). One of the great things about LOTR is how everyone stands together. Everything's intertwined. If it weren't, I don't think it would havee been as good.

[truehobbit]

Thanks Frelga, and well said!

Although I would've like to know for sure whether the Ringwraiths or Bill Ferny attacked the Pony.

That reminds me - I'd like to know for sure whether Bill the Pony made it home safely.
I mean, I imagine it did, but it seems such a hard journey. All the fellowship got home safe...

[JewelSong]

That reminds me - I'd like to know for sure whether Bill the Pony made it home safely.

I thought he did...I thought Sam was "riding his beloved Bill" on the way to the Grey Havens...

Wasn't he?

[Whistler]

I'm not suggesting that the whole thing should be turned into a jumble of disconnected stories. I'd want to keep the whole thing intact. But I wouldn't have minded a few stories standing independent of the whole, just as the Arthurian myths will digress at certain points to follow the adventures of such-and-such a figure, and then return to the larger narrative.

[Sassafras]

Right you are, Jewel.

On Septemberthe twenty-first they set out together, Frodo on the pony that had bourne him all the way from Minis Tirith, and was now called Strider; and Sam on his beloved Bill.

[ToshoftheWuffingas]

Bill aimed a kick at Ferny at the gate to the Shire in the Scouring.

Although the pleasure of LOTR consists of being inside Middle Earth and in that respect I don't ever want it to end, the fact is that it is a narrative and needs its own pace and tensions to succeed.
That spell between April and midsummer after the fall of Sauron goes a bit quickly, I think that there was a little room for unwinding the tension there where back stories could be caught up with. Tolkien cut out two passages around that part of the book, I believe. One was Gandalf's strategic assessment of the events described in the Hobbit, another was his tribute to Frodo and Sam at Théoden's funeral, I really wish he had put that last one in.
We are lucky in that we have all the appendices and Unfinished Tales etc to satisfy our need. What else could we wish for? For me an account of Gandalf's 17 years away from the Shire and more about Aragorn's travels

[Alatar]

Agreed Tosh. That section in UT about the Hunt for the Ring and the Quest for Erebor were both excellent. I also love the Epilogue from HoME where Sam is reading to his children from the Red Book.

I love the version that ends like this:

All the children were in bed. Lights were glimmering still in Hobbiton and in many houses dotted about the darkening countryside. Sam stood at the door and looked away eastward. He drew Mistress Rose to him and held her close to his side.

'March 18th', he said. 'This time seventeen years ago, Rose wife, I did not think I should ever see thee again. But I kept on hoping.'
'And you came back,' said Rose.
'I did,' said Sam; 'to the most belovedest place in all the world. I was torn in two then, lass, but now I am all whole. And all that I have, and all that I have had I still have.'

They went in and shut the door. But even as he did so Sam heard suddenly the sigh and murmur of the sea on the shores of Middle-earth.

[truehobbit]

Thanks all! I'd completely overlooked that!

And it just goes to show that the book is perfect as it is!


No time now to write a real post, but I think that ending is flawed on many levels, Alatar.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I was torn in two then, lass, but now I am all whole.

This is the type of thing that I was talking about of Tolkien relating back to a previous statement to close a loop. It may not be to your taste, Hobby, but I like it.

[vison]

Voronwë, you're right about Galadriel's lament. I love it, and it's real poetry, too. And what we get of "The Lay of Lúthien".

The poetry I meant was, you know, the bath songs, etc. And that fox......

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Yeah, we are in agreement.