J.K. Rowling's TERF War

[Alatar]

That's a super complicated question Elengil, but we don't normally legislate for the extreme exception. Its definitely a discussion worth having, but has little to do with 99% of trans cases.

ETA - 99% a figure of speech not a stat

[elengil]

That's a super complicated question Elengil, but we don't normally legislate for the extreme exception. Its definitely a discussion worth having, but has little to do with 99% of trans cases.

ETA - 99% a figure of speech not a stat

But that's just it, if we think of the gray areas as being of such little consequence or applicability that we can ignore them, then we end up where we are - in a battle over black and white without acknowledging that gray is even valid.

My point wasn't to say that it is reflective of all transpeople, but that if we take two extremes, at some point we have to figure out where they meet in the middle between being inclusive or exclusive. Giving transpeople equal rights does not in any way diminish my own rights. Giving transwomen equal consideration as women does not, in my opinion, diminish me as a woman in any way.

And sure, emotionally there can be a pushback that says men have already taken so much from women, do we really want to give them "being women" too? Isn't that what we were all angry at Rachel Dolezal for? I've had this internal struggle with regard to 'drag' because how is that really different than blackface?

But I think the problem is we see this as men wanting to be women, instead of women wanting to be women. That's where this whole concept seems to hit head-on - are they men who want to be women, or women who just want to be women?

When I think about who I am as a person, as an individual, I find myself contained within my personality, my thoughts, my experiences. Now, some of those experiences *are* of being physically female... but if I lose a limb am I less 'myself'? Am I as much in my brain as I am in my toe? Am I less of a woman if I had FGM performed on me? Is my body who I am, or merely my snail-shell that I live in? Is Caster Semenya a woman in a biologically male body, or a man who thinks they're a woman, or is it some gray area that we don't want to think about because it adds nuance to what we want to be a straight forward question?

Now, all this comes back to - is the reaction to JK Rowling justified? I will again state absolutely unequivocally that violence and threats of violence against her in all forms are abhorrent (and potentially criminal.) But even those threats of violence must be viewed in the context of the real violence that has been done and continues to be done to transpeople as well - equally as abhorrent, but up till now has been largely justified or even actively pursued. We cannot try to divorce the reaction from the context that created it, even as we urge the reaction to be more reasonable.

I think the people who are pushing back on her views are perhaps like me approaching this as being, "Women are individuals defined by their personality, experiences, and thoughts. They are not merely a body that checks the right boxes."

Sex is real, I don't deny that. Chromosomes are measurable. We have access to that biological knowledge today that we haven't in the past. They are important medically. But chromosomes also come in more options than just two. Sex is not as clean cut as we want it to be, and gender even less-so - a body does not necessarily mean that it reflects who a person is in their brain. Many societies across the world and throughout time have acknowledged to more or less degrees that there was more than just M/F. It isn't a new or unprecedented concept that we face.

We do know for a fact that there are boys being raised as girls because nobody knows differently until puberty, or maybe they never know differently. I will firmly stand on the side that says a person is who they are in their brain, no matter what their biology says. And I really hope for the day when that isn't a contentious statement, either. And if anyone ever wants to not buy my future books because of that, that is their right to decide where to spend their money.

[River]

The part of the Semenya case that confuses me is people who are born 46XY with a nonfunctional Y may look female but they never go through menarche. She's an elite athlete. Surely someone would have noticed and followed up on that?

[Frelga]

There seems a lot of concern for Rowling here. Did I miss something? Last I heard there was just a tweetstorm. Did the sales of Harry Potter merchandise go down? Was the book launch canceled? I heard her new novel as Robert Galbraith is still coming out as scheduled, and features a male murderer who pretends to be a woman in order to kill women. Did, in fact, anything happen except some young people on the internet being bitterly disappointed in someone whom they grew up to admire?

[Inanna]

I was just coming to post that I am actually concerned about the woman who was fired rather than Rowling.

And that’s the point - why is that woman’s life being ruined over her public statement of an objection of someone in a list. Can we have *degrees* of acceptance? Is it possible?

A genuine question - is it possible for us to have degrees of acceptance of opinions and actions without downgrading the fight for inclusion.

[elengil]

I was just coming to post that I am actually concerned about the woman who was fired rather than Rowling.

And that’s the point - why is that woman’s life being ruined over her public statement of an objection of someone in a list. Can we have *degrees* of acceptance? Is it possible?

A genuine question - is it possible for us to have degrees of acceptance of opinions and actions without downgrading the fight for inclusion.

This really is not against you, Inanna, and I apologize if it seems to be. I agree with you, I just think the particular arguments are also more nuanced.

I am against her having been fired. But in the very first post of this thread is an article about a woman being fired. For being transgender. There should be degrees of acceptance, and it is unfortunate that those degrees seem mostly to get drawn out when the previously dominant group suddenly experiences even a tiny fraction of what the previously marginalized group has been subjected to.

Someone's life shouldn't be ruined over a public objection to a list. Someone's life also should not be ruined because they wear a dress, or because they want to be called "Sarah" instead of "Sam". It must be remembered that social reaction is a response, there was an original social inequality that made that response seem necessary. We should not forget that when discussing whether that response is merited.

[Cerin]

elengil, I say you go with the chromosomes, and especially in athletics, where there are no gray areas. Athletics are not about emotions or self-identity or anything but achievements of the body, therefore, it is the body that must be assessed and categorized if athletic competition is to be fair. 

But in the very first post of this thread is an article about a woman being fired. For being transgender.

I'm not finding this article.

A genuine question - is it possible for us to have degrees of acceptance of opinions and actions without downgrading the fight for inclusion.

 
Not if you put people before principle (and by that I understand you to mean, people's feelings).

[elengil]

see this Vox article.

[Inanna]

Cerin, I didn’t necessarily mean only people’s feelings. I meant consider the consequences of any action taking into account how it will impact that specific person’s life. That person’s livelihood, mental state, relations, future. Don’t treat people as things.*

Elengil, I didn’t think you were singling me out at all! I asked, you answered.

Firing someone for being transgender is just horrible. As is firing a woman for taking a contraceptive pill.
Stop. Think. Empathize dammit.

[Frelga]

I think what counts is threats to life, physical safety, and access to equal opportunities for personal advancement, especially for reasons that people have little or no control over.

I do not count people's feelings being hurt because other people don't choose to live in accordance with their personal preferences, no matter how deeply felt.

[Inanna]

Frelga expressed it better.

[Frelga]

Is Caster Semenya male or female?

And why does it matter?

You know, until just right now it has never occurred to me to wonder if the question even made sense.

[RoseMorninStar]

Hippocrates and Galen viewed sex as a spectrum between men and women, with "many shades in between, including hermaphrodites, a perfect balance of male and female".

[Túrin Turambar]

There's a lot to comment on here.

For an alternative perspective on J. K. Rowling's essay, including her comments on Maya Forstater and her fears regarding trans women in female spaces, I found this video by a Youtube Channel which discusses trans issues helpful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Avcp-e4bOs&t=1

Then there's the issue of online abuse and harassment, which does seem to be directed more frequently to women and minorities then men. But this seems to be a problem for anyone who expresses any controversial views of any sort.

Then there's the question of cancel culture, which is an entire problem in and of itself. I might comment more later.

[RoseMorninStar]

Túrin, that video was long (I used the reduced speed playback because they spoke too quickly for me to follow so it was even longer) but it was very informative and helpful. I know LGBTQ people, some fairly well/extended family members, but I don't feel it's right to ask them about their identity/sex/preferences and I should accept them for who they are, period. The very act of asking seems to cross a line. They are under no obligation to explain themselves or help me understand anything. If they wished to talk about it I would be there for them but that has not happened. YouTube can be very helpful this way.

I really like the thought of identity as being on a spectrum or continuum. 'Grey' is more confusing/difficult to deal with than black and white, but that's life.

As for toilets & changing rooms, I've long thought individual toilets whose partitions go are completely enclosed would solve a lot of issues. I can't recall who it was that came to visit us from another country (Japan maybe?) and they were shocked (and very uncomfortable) that our public toilet stalls were not fully enclosed.

[Beorhtnoth]

If sex is indeterminate, how much milk is achieved by milking a bull? Or are cattle somehow excluded from sex indeterminism?

I confess to finding this argument as peculiar as the debate on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. There is, to my mind, no difficulty in accepting both Rowling's position and trans rights. Everybody should be accepted for living their lives in any "gender" role they see fit, without fear of violence or prejudice. However, this does not preclude identifying the difference between biological males and females. Rowling bridled at the imposition that trans women are women, without qualification. To me, this equating of men and women, that Rowling rejected, is patently absurd, rendering the experience of growing up female void.

There is a disturbing totalitarianism amongst some who describe themselves as "left", in which the demand is to think and act within prescriptive parameters, and challenging those parameters is considered heinous.

That is not my idea of a free and fair society. I dislike Rowling, and her post hoc rewriting of her work (Hermione was described as white. There was no Jewish pupil at Hogwarts called Goldberg), but her comments regarding sexual identity seem fair to me.

[River]

There is a disturbing totalitarianism amongst some who describe themselves as "left", in which the demand is to think and act within prescriptive parameters, and challenging those parameters is considered heinous.

It's a horseshoe effect. Go far enough to the left or the right and you end up in a similar place. Same pathologies but with different flags and shibboleths.

I honestly find some of the uproar that kicks up around transgenderism to be misogynistic. Both in terms of how apparently thinking of certain events like pregnancy and nursing as exclusively female isn't okay anymore and the right-wing attempts to drum up a moral panic about women's sports and restrooms. Why is it only the women's spaces that are up for discussion here?

[Beorhtnoth]

I have seen arguments for the "horseshoe effect", but I find them simplistic and self-serving, specifically for opponents of the left. I suggest that any ideology is susceptible to totalitarian imposition, and can be commandeered. However, left ideology is at root uncomplicated. It may be subject to the threat of the "tyranny of the majority", but what we are experiencing bears no semblance to that, being a tyranny of the minority, and thus diametrically opposite to left ideological imperatives.
The tragedy of the contemporary left is that it has allowed itself to be commandeered by just such a minority, that speaks the language of equality and inclusivity, but practices the contrary.

[River]

So I have some close family members who are at the extreme end of the left. One of them used to test any new idea for ideological purity before evaluating any other merits and she really isn't a fan of being called out about that. Age and a doctoral program (aka a few spins on a breaking wheel) have mellowed her out a bit but that tendency is still there. I see that same behavior, ideology before all else, at the far end of the right. That's the basis for my statement about the horseshoe. I realize that the more tyrannical type of left extremist is rare. But they are organized and they are seek attention and that's really all you need for the tail to occasionally wag the dog in this day and age.

[Beorhtnoth]

Yes, I understand your premise, but I challenge this categorisation of those masquerading as left, even identifying as left, being in truth left.

I am "extreme left", at least what would be so judged classically, but I see nothing in the swamp of divisive identity politics that is remotely left. Perhaps this is a problem of interpretation; social liberalism is confused with "leftism".

I do wonder what Marx, or Proudhon, or Winstanley would make of the myriad of competing narcissistic ideologies that pass for the "left" today.