Deletion discussion

[JewelSong]

[Note: I split this off from the Same sex marriage thread - VtF]

[rant] I really, really wish people in general would not be so quick to delete a post.

I honest do not understand why on earth a lack of comments about a particular link would somehow "intimidate" someone into deleting a perfectly good and possibly very informative post. I can see if a post elicited a lot of negative comments, or someone was personally hurt by something that was said...but even then it would seem that a clarification or edit might work rather than simply deleting the whole thing. Especially when it is a link to a news story, because sometimes people just do not have the time to (a)either read it right then or (b) make a coherent comment. Maybe they are planning to come back later and comment, or maybe they read and don't comment simply because they have no real comment to make. Not every post gets a response.

I don't know. Too much second guessing or worrying about posting this or that might make this a pretty dull board...

[/rant]

[anthriel]

[rant] I really, really wish people in general would not be so quick to delete a post.

I honest do not understand why on earth a lack of comments about a particular link would somehow "intimidate" someone into deleting a perfectly good and possibly very informative post. I can see if a post elicited a lot of negative comments, or someone was personally hurt by something that was said...but even then it would seem that a clarification or edit might work rather than simply deleting the whole thing. Especially when it is a link to a news story, because sometimes people just do not have the time to (a)either read it right then or (b) make a coherent comment. Maybe they are planning to come back later and comment, or maybe they read and don't comment simply because they have no real comment to make. Not every post gets a response.

I don't know. Too much second guessing or worrying about posting this or that might make this a pretty dull board...

[/rant]

I guess you have to accept that not everyone feels or reacts the same way you do, Jewel. It doesn't make other people's feelings or choices wrong because they are not the feelings and choices you make.

Everyone being exactly the same would DEFINITELY make this a pretty dull board.

[yovargas]

So would less Anthy posts.

[anthriel]

[JewelSong]

I guess you have to accept that not everyone feels or reacts the same way you do, Jewel. It doesn't make other people's feelings or choices wrong because they are not the feelings and choices you make.

I can accept it; I don't have to like it. And I don't think there is anything wrong if I try to encourage a different way. In my very own, singular opinion, I *think* that people posting something and then second-guessing it and deleting it (sometimes after others have already responded to it, sometimes before anyone even has a chance to comment) is not a practice to be encouraged.

Everyone has deleted posts - especially posts written in haste and perhaps anger. But I feel that on this board, there is a tendency to go overboard with it and sometimes I feel like everyone is walking on eggshells for fear of possibly, maybe, perhaps offending someone. And in a forum like Lasto, where we are supposed to be exchanging opinions and having spirited dialogue, this kind of behavior serves to stifle the discussion.

Everyone being exactly the same would DEFINITELY make this a pretty dull board.

And sometimes I fear that is where we are headed, to be honest.

[anthriel]

Everyone being exactly the same would DEFINITELY make this a pretty dull board.

And sometimes I fear that is where we are headed, to be honest.

Hmmmmm.

Well, THAT's interesting, given the first part of your post had to do with trying to "encourage" people to do things, feel things, react to things, a different way than they naturally do. For them to make choices the way that makes sense to you.

If you succeeding with your "encouraging" in making everyone's style like yours, then we would all be exactly like you, and then all alike. Right? In MY very own opinion, we need to acknowledge the depth and breadth and... richness of our mix of posters, even when their reactions do not make sense to us, or even, and this happens to all of us I would think, exasperates us.

I can accept it; I don't have to like it.

True, that. That's the thing, though, in a diverse community. You don't have to like it, and you have every right to comment on it, and to feel what you feel about it. Just like those posters who react in ways that you don't like have every right to feel what THEY feel.

Feedback is good, of course. I always listen carefully to what people are saying, when I realize a natural tendency of mine is irritating to someone. I can't know if it's not said.

[Frelga]

Well, I thought Jewel was trying to encourage people to react the way they would, rather than keeping their reaction to themselves. :shrug:


On an utter tangent, I got a pompous, passive-aggressive email some time back while doing volunteer stuff, and the first thing I thought was, "I bet this would really upset anthy if she received it." Then I got spitting mad at the sender for upsetting anthy.


I handled it pretty well, in the end.

[Pearly Di]

Well, I thought Jewel was trying to encourage people to react the way they would, rather than keeping their reaction to themselves. :shrug:

That's what I thought too.

I believe it's more to do with feeling sad/frustrated that anyone here would feel they were NOT free to express their opinions.

When, in fact, they are.

This is, hands down, the mildest and best-behaved messageboard I've ever been part of. There is a reason for that, of course, and I'm grateful for it.

Sorry. As you were!

[anthriel]

Well, I thought Jewel was trying to encourage people to react the way they would, rather than keeping their reaction to themselves. :shrug:

I guess I understand that, and Jewel can flesh that thought out when she returns. But I think the idea that is missing here is that the "delete" reaction is not necessarily hiding a reaction from the group; what you are seeing *IS* the reaction.

The natural reaction of some posters when things are overwhelming or intimidating is to retreat. "Retreating" is not, from what I have observed, a typical Jewel reaction. Do we really all want to react the same way to things?

(I also want to be careful not to speak for Imp. *I* can react by retreating. The tendency exists, fer sure, in me.)

What it means, of course, that we are all different, and I am hoping to convey a sense of different reactions all being acceptable. Even in Lasto?

On an utter tangent, I got a pompous, passive-aggressive email some time back while doing volunteer stuff, and the first thing I thought was, "I bet this would really upset anthy if she received it." Then I got spitting mad at the sender for upsetting anthy.

Well, THANK YOU, Miss Frelga. It's nice to know you got my back.

I handled it pretty well, in the end.

Never would have doubted THAT, not for a moment.

[anthriel]

Well, I thought Jewel was trying to encourage people to react the way they would, rather than keeping their reaction to themselves. :shrug:

That's what I thought too.

I believe that Jewel's exasperation is at people here feeling that they're NOT free to express their opinions.

AHHHhhhh... is that it, Jewel? That is quite different.

When, in fact, they are.

I agree. Very much.


I guess the point I am labouring over here, which I might be wasting many people's internet moments trying to make, is that the reason people might delete posts is because of the emotional... errr, vulnerability of those posts. Because of the emotional makeup of the poster, reacting to the reactions (or lack thereof) surrounding the post.

Bah. I'm not going to nail this idea. But I hold firm to the thought that we are ALL different, and that we should allow some flexibility in the reactions of others to protect that... emotional diversity.



(Wouldn't it be funny if I deleted all the comments I made on this topic? Just sayin'... )

This is, hands down, the mildest and best-behaved messageboard I've ever been part of. There is a reason for that, of course, and I'm grateful for it.

Sorry. As you were!

I am quite grateful to that reason, too.

[yovargas]

(Wouldn't it be funny if I deleted all the comments I made on this topic? Just sayin'... )

I know I've pushed and teased you about the delete thing before. I can't speak for JS but for me, and I bet a lot of us, it's the disappointment in not having heard what you had to say (when what you had to say is pretty much always worth hearing) combined with wanting you to know very loudly and clearly that your thoughts are always welcome here!!

[anthriel]

I do appreciate that, yov. You are very encouraging! (I *have* gotten better, btw. I have.)


I HAVE.



I STILL hold, though, and I know I'm being quite stubborn about this, that people should be allowed to feel what they feel and react they way they react. This feeling that we all need to react the same way is disturbing to me, on a pretty fundamental level. We are NOT all the same, and that is what makes this place shiny.




Edit: Darn it. I knew it. Sorry I dragged this so off topic.

[ToshoftheWuffingas]

Wot yov sed.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

(a) You did not drag it off topic.

(b) There is nothing to apologize for, since it is a good discussion topic. It just doesn't have anything to do with same sex marriage, and so should not take place in that thread.

[JewelSong]

Well, I thought Jewel was trying to encourage people to react the way they would, rather than keeping their reaction to themselves. :shrug:

That's what I thought too.

I believe that Jewel's exasperation is at people here feeling that they're NOT free to express their opinions.

AHHHhhhh... is that it, Jewel? That is quite different.

Yes. People treading so lightly and fearfully that many excellent thoughts, opinions and idea don't get said. Or worse...get said, and then quickly and surreptiously unsaid for fear of...I don't what. Which is worse than just not even posting in the first place. In my opinion, of course.

I guess the point I am labouring over here, which I might be wasting many people's internet moments trying to make, is that the reason people might delete posts is because of the emotional... errr, vulnerability of those posts. Because of the emotional makeup of the poster, reacting to the reactions (or lack thereof) surrounding the post.

I get that. But sometimes...too much emotional fragility on a messageboard can make posting feel like slogging through molasses. I like to feel like this is a safe enough place where disagreements and spirited dialog can happen. Where differences of opinion are tolerated and even encouraged and where people won't delete perfectly good posts...posts that other people may have already spent time responding to...simply because they are too vulnerable or whatever to the emotions their own post elicited.

Protect emotional diversity all you want. Step away from any discussion if it gets too heated or personal or scary or uncomfortable. .I have done that myself. But if you make a thought-provoking, interesting and stimulating post, LEAVE IT THERE. People are reading it and thinking about it and responding to it and simply deleting it is not fair play.

Wouldn't it be funny if I deleted all the comments I made on this topic? Just sayin'...

I know you're kidding....but it would be rather infuriating. The terrible thing is, I could actually imagine you doing just that.

[anthriel]

I had a really snarky response to that, but I deleted it.



I think I have stated my position as one of the sloggy molasses-producers as clearly as I can. It's time to let that spirited discussion soar.

[JewelSong]

I STILL hold, though, and I know I'm being quite stubborn about this, that people should be allowed to feel what they feel and react they way they react. This feeling that we all need to react the same way is disturbing to me, on a pretty fundamental level. We are NOT all the same, and that is what makes this place shiny.

I'd like to address this, because I feel as if you are misinterpreting or misstating what I meant.

Nowhere did I say - or even imply - that "we all need to react the same way." People obviously feel and react in all different ways for all different reasons. People post in all different ways. Or stop posting for different reasons. And react to conflict and confrontation differently. And all that is FINE. And DANDY, even.

But I do not agree that posting a lengthy, thoughtful, interesting and intriguing (and maybe controversial) post and then summarily deleting it is simply a "different way of reacting" and something to be smilingly and happily accepted because we're all different tra la la.

It's a reaction, sure it is. But - to my mind - it is something to be highly discouraged because it is not playing fair. It borders on the passive-aggressive, in fact. The Poster Deleter gets to have his/her say and then...no one can respond to it afterward. Why is that okay? How does that make the board a better, safer place?

[yovargas]

The Poster Deleter gets to have his/her say and then...no one can respond to it afterward. Why is that okay?

Why?? Because the poster decided they'd rather not have that discussion and anyone's entitle to not have a discussion they'd rather not have. I don't like it but it's certainly anyone individual's perogative!

[JewelSong]

The Poster Deleter gets to have his/her say and then...no one can respond to it afterward. Why is that okay?

Why?? Because the poster decided they'd rather not have that discussion and anyone's entitle to not have a discussion they'd rather not have. I don't like it but it's certainly anyone individual's perogative!

But the original poster is free to walk away from the discussion, if he/she doesn't want to have it. I do not think it is right to remove the post and leave people hanging. Don't want to have the discussion? Fine. Don't participate in it. But removing what you said originally? When people have already responded to it...or read it? Not okay. Passive-aggressive.

It reminds me of my ex-husband, who used to make parting (and often barbed) comments to me just as he was walking out the door...with no opportunity for me to respond.

[Impenitent]

I hope this discussion has moved way beyond the topic of my deleted post, because truly, my post was definitely not worth this kind of in-depth debate.

It was not lengthy, thoughtful, interesting, intriguing nor controversial. It was inane and lacking in any substance and added not a single thing to the topic of same sex marriage, and that's why I deleted it; because I was, once again, embarrassed by my lightweight non-contribution and I wanted to get rid of the evidence. So there you go.

I don't have a lot to say for myself, and that's just the way it is. Jewel, if you'd seen the post, you would not have felt the slightest bit of distress at its subsequent disappearance.

I realise the debate has moved on to the meta-issue, so...you know, just leave me out of this. (Although most posters aren't referencing me and don't even realise that I posted at all.)