The 2012 US Election

[Dave_LF]

Romney won that one, unless you insist on factual accuracy.

Don't worry; we don't.

[anthriel]

Nevertheless, that's what people will take away from this debate. It's going to be "Russia from my house" all over again.

And it's fitting. I really don't care what either of them says tonight. I would not vote for anyone committed to Republican agenda, regardless of personal merits. This election is not about individuals.


P.S.: the Wiki entry on th Big Bird has already been updated.

I understand that, and that is what is going on throughout this country, and has been for ages.

That..is essentially the problem with this country.

I don't suggest that anyone change their ideals based on one debate, but to go into an election with a closed mind is why we are where we are. Divisive, biased, partisan, politics is why we are failing.

I so, so, so agree with this. Again, both sides, folks.

Most of the people who watched last night were trying to see how their team came across. I am glad Romney did so well, just because the media has really pounded him as a bumbling idiot lately, and when the man actually got to stand up there and talk, it is apparent that he can. Obama has been described as an amazing orator (by me, too... he is amazing!), but he might not be quite as much of a slam dunk against Romney as I thought.

I'm also bloody sick of this campaign (I swear if I get another robocall in my voicemail I'm going to find their nearest office of the responsible campaign and throw a brick through their window).

I'll be right there with you, sistah.

I do think the debates happen too late to have much influence on campaigns these days. They do keep the media entertained though.

Agreed and agreed. This is still "rah, team!!" stuff. The media will have fun minutely inspecting each breath taken, but in the end, most people really do know who they will vote for already.

My observations?

1. I liked the red and blue ties. (Was that coordinated, you think?)
2, I liked when Obama told the moderator "I had five seconds before you interrupted me." THAT wasn't scripted. Loved it.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Romney won that one, unless you insist on factual accuracy.

I do hope Obama's campaign will treat tonight as a wake-up call. It doesn't do Obama any good to be polite and patrician and bipartisan and restrained when Romney is baldly lying. Call him on it, much more sharply than tonight, or he wins.

As unbelievable as it is, even after four years as president Obama still has to avoid come across as the angry black man. That was all the more emphasized by the conservative media's trumping of this supposed "new" video (which of course was widely reported on at the time) of him addressing a largely African-American crowd in New Orleans in 2007 about Katrina, to show that he is "racially divisive". I guess that Obama and his advisers decided that it was more important for him to avoid that label than it was to call Romney out on his blatant and ridiculous lies.

Yeah I don't get how you can win a debate when telling lots of lies.

Because most people aren't paying enough attention to understand what the truth is.

[axordil]

These things all need to be paid for, even if taxpayers aren't getting value for money.

There are many government expenditures, at all levels, where the value assessment has been distorted by people with interests in keeping up the expenditures.

The criminal system (I won't apply the word justice) is a particularly cancerous example. Even if, say, we changed our drug policy to decriminalize the vast majority of drug use and small possession offenses, the number of people who have been warped beyond reasonable hope of recovery by the prison time they've gone through runs in the millions. They may not have been real criminals when they went in, but they usually are when they get out. But the influence of the big prison companies in the state legislatures is immense.

[Lalaith]

Yeah I don't get how you can win a debate when telling lots of lies.

Because most people aren't paying enough attention to understand what the truth is.

Or most people don't care anymore because we've been lied to so often about so many things by so many different entities, and we can't even tell what the truth is any longer.


But, let me be clear (which would have required me to take a drink if I'd been playing the presidential debate drinking game that was online), though I am cynical, jaded, and fed up, I will still vote. I will still support candidates who are worth it, and I will still work for laws and issues that I think are worth it. IOW, I'm not going to shirk my civic duty just because I think our system, as it is right now, pretty much sucks.

[Dave_LF]

Because most people aren't paying enough attention to understand what the truth is.

I think it's worse than that. I think many people have decided that the world is too big and complicated to comprehend, so they should just go with their gut and/or support whoever puts on the better show. It's not (just) that the truth is unknown; it's that it doesn't matter.

[anthriel]

Because most people aren't paying enough attention to understand what the truth is.

I think it's worse than that. I think many people have decided that the world is too big and complicated to comprehend, so they should just go with their gut and/or support whoever puts on the better show. It's not (just) that the truth is unknown; it's that it doesn't matter.

Or that, like Lali said, anything either side is endorsing as the TRUTH should have a big fat asterisk beside it. We know everyone's trying to manipulate us, all the time, and I refuse to be drawn into the game.

So I have to focus on a few key problems this country has, and try to parse through the layers of GARBAGE to see if there really is any substance to either player's position. Knowing, of course, that even what they promise to do will not always be done. Some things they promise to do even THEY know can't be done. (Yes, even Obama.)

This is, after all, politics.

[Griffon64]

I think you guys are taking Erunáme's remark literally when she meant it a different way.

Romney seemed smoother and better prepared. The better orator, even.

Parts of his message was interesting to hear and went against what segments of the media held him up as believing in.

A debate like this is so superficial, though. It doesn't have a whole lot of value, regardless of how much impact it has. ( Impact can be a "value", too, but that is a value to the politician, not to the pleb. )

[Lalaith]

I was addressing Voronwë's remark more than Eru's. But Eru was responding to Prim's remark, as far as I could see. In any case, it seemed like all of them were being serious about their comments. And, really, it doesn't matter to my comment.

Anyway, anthy said it better.

We know everyone's trying to manipulate us, all the time, and I refuse to be drawn into the game.

[anthriel]

I was addressing Voronwë's remark more than Eru's. But Eru was responding to Prim's remark, as far as I could see. In any case, it seemed like all of them were being serious about their comments. And, really, it doesn't matter to my comment.

And I was addressing Dave's remark. Doesn't matter to my comment, either, actually.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Because most people aren't paying enough attention to understand what the truth is.

I think it's worse than that. I think many people have decided that the world is too big and complicated to comprehend, so they should just go with their gut and/or support whoever puts on the better show. It's not (just) that the truth is unknown; it's that it doesn't matter.

Or that, like Lali said, anything either side is endorsing as the TRUTH should have a big fat asterisk beside it. We know everyone's trying to manipulate us, all the time, and I refuse to be drawn into the game.

So I have to focus on a few key problems this country has, and try to parse through the layers of GARBAGE to see if there really is any substance to either player's position. Knowing, of course, that even what they promise to do will not always be done. Some things they promise to do even THEY know can't be done. (Yes, even Obama.)

This is, after all, politics.

Maybe I'm deluding myself, but I'd like to think that I am fairly on the ball, and I have followed things extremely closely. It seems to me, and again, maybe I'm deluding myself, that the president stayed quite close to the message that he has put across consistently, whereas as Mr. Romney simply disregarded most everything that he has said throughout the campaign (and which his party will very likely hold him to, regardless of what he really believes). I'm no longer willing to accept this idea of "they are all bad so there is no real choice between them" when my own powers of observation and reasoning skills tell me that there is a very clear distinction between them.

Or maybe I'm just deluding myself.

[Maria]

I only caught part of the debate, but what struck me most kept reminding me of a Dr. Who quote:

"Don't you think she looks tired?" You know, the six words that brought down Harriet Jones' administration?

Obama looked very tired to me.

[Erunáme]

I'm right there with you V. I don't believe there's as much truth to the "both sides" meme as some people think there is.

[Erunáme]

I don't suggest that anyone change their ideals based on one debate, but to go into an election with a closed mind is why we are where we are. Divisive, biased, partisan, politics is why we are failing.

I don't completely agree. There are many important issues where you really cannot be open minded. I believe in women's right to abortion, that gays have the right to marry and receive the same benefits a heterosexual couple would receive, I am against discrimination and racism... these are issues I cannot be opened minded about. To do so would mean sacrificing the rights of some groups of people.

In any case I wouldn't vote for him, because I have seen what he has done rather than because I am a biased dissenter based on party affiliation.

And with this I feel you contradict yourself. You're unhappy that Obama didn't accomplish all he said he would. But I think the biggest single reason he didn't is because he attempted to be "open minded" or at least compromise with Republicans.. yet he got back nothing in return. So essentially it appears that in order to have gained your favour, he would have needed to adopt a very partisan attitude in order to accomplish what he thinks is right... yet you disapprove of that.

[yovargas]

I think it's worse than that. I think many people have decided that the world is too big and complicated to comprehend...

I wouldn't say I think that the world is too big and complicated to comprehend, I'd say I know it. This is probably why the moral/social issues like abortion and gay marriage are good ways to get people riled up. Those issues you can understand. You don't need a damn PHd to know whether or not gays should be able to marry. But tax policies? Foreign policies? Health care policies? The complexities are vast and uncertain and nobody really knows what the best thing to do is, we're all just making educated guesses. And for me to make a real, unbiased, and informed decision on even one of those would take a far bigger investment of my time and energy than I'm frankly willing to invest just I can cast my one vote better.

[anthriel]

I think it's worse than that. I think many people have decided that the world is too big and complicated to comprehend, so they should just go with their gut and/or support whoever puts on the better show. It's not (just) that the truth is unknown; it's that it doesn't matter.

Or that, like Lali said, anything either side is endorsing as the TRUTH should have a big fat asterisk beside it. We know everyone's trying to manipulate us, all the time, and I refuse to be drawn into the game.

So I have to focus on a few key problems this country has, and try to parse through the layers of GARBAGE to see if there really is any substance to either player's position. Knowing, of course, that even what they promise to do will not always be done. Some things they promise to do even THEY know can't be done. (Yes, even Obama.)

This is, after all, politics.

Maybe I'm deluding myself, but I'd like to think that I am fairly on the ball, and I have followed things extremely closely. It seems to me, and again, maybe I'm deluding myself, that the president stayed quite close to the message that he has put across consistently, whereas as Mr. Romney simply disregarded most everything that he has said throughout the campaign (and which his party will very likely hold him to, regardless of what he really believes). I'm no longer willing to accept this idea of "they are all bad so there is no real choice between them" when my own powers of observation and reasoning skills tell me that there is a very clear distinction between them.

Or maybe I'm just deluding myself.

I didn't say anyone was deluding themselves. I also didn't say there was no real choice between them, (you put this in quotes; did I write this elsewhere?). I think you are qute on the ball, and I have actually solicited your opinion about politics, off teh board, because I trust and respect you.

I don't know that you are undestanding what I am trying to say, here, completely. I feel like there is emotional manipulation in politics, everywhere. I am not interested in playing into emotional manipulation.

I am NOT saying, anywhere, that I do not believe there are clear differences between these two parties, and these two men. You have helped me see that better, actually.

I don't believe there's as much truth to the "both sides" meme as some people think there is.

I understand that you and others feel this way (and again, I am talking about the attempts to emotionally manipulate people, which I so very much see in both sides). Hopefully, the fact that I feel differently can still be shared here.

[Erunáme]

(and again, I am talking about the attempts to emotionally manipulate people, which I so very much see in both sides).

Oh sure I can acknowledge that is going on on both sides for sure.

But I honestly do think one "side" is a lot more truthful than the other. You can still use facts to get to people's emotions. Some of the Obama campaign ads do just that.

[WampusCat]

I only caught part of the debate, but what struck me most kept reminding me of a Dr. Who quote:

"Don't you think she looks tired?" You know, the six words that brought down Harriet Jones' administration?

Obama looked very tired to me.

That occurred to me too, Maria.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Anthy, even though I quoted your post, I was responding to a lot more than your post. I apologize that it came across as suggesting that you were saying things that you were not saying. I didn't mean to do that, but it clearly does come across that way.

As you know, I feel pretty strongly about this election, and I have been quite upset about a lot of what I have seen. It was not my intention to take that out on you. If anything, I chose your post to respond to because I feel more comfortable with you than with just about anyone else.

[SirDennis]

Parts of his message was interesting to hear and went against what segments of the media held him up as believing in.

Conservative candidates often come across as being socially conscious during campaigns but end up ruling as blatant capitalists if elected. If they campaigned according to their hard core supporters' tastes, they would find exceedingly it difficult to get elected.

ETA: regarding emotional manipulation... Obama appeared to me to be more concerned that his health care reforms should survive for the sake of American people, than he was about getting re-elected.