The 2012 US Election

The place for measured discourse about politics and current events, including developments in science and medicine.
Post Reply
User avatar
yovargas
I miss Prim ...
Posts: 15011
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:13 am
Location: Florida

Post by yovargas »

Holbytla wrote:Why has the Obama administration failed to connect with a significantly more than 49.9% of the populace?
Lord_Morningstar wrote:As a side note, I never really understood Orwell's Doublethink until I saw some of the President's less sane critics. People who manage to believe, at the same time, that he's a member of the East Coast liberal elite, a Black Panther under the influence of a radical black preacher, a secret Muslim and an Mau-Mau inspired atheist African Marxist, depending on the immediate circumstances before them.
Because he's on the "other side". What he actually did or did not do is ultimately largely irrelevant to many people.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists


Image
Holbytla
Posts: 5870
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 5:31 pm

Post by Holbytla »

Boy, even to the ultimate cynic like me, that is a huge cop out answer.
I'm neither that blind or stupid.
Give me something with more teeth.

Where and why did our president lose touch with a significant segment of our "at least somewhat intelligent and observant" population?
Image
User avatar
River
bioalchemist
Posts: 12582
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:08 am
Location: the dry land

Post by River »

My feeling is that once he took office he did a really poor job of communicating what he was doing and why. Yeah, the news was out there if you were paying close attention...but a huge chunk of the country isn't paying that much attention.
When you can do nothing what can you do?
User avatar
Primula Baggins
Living in hope
Posts: 40005
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:43 am
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
Contact:

Post by Primula Baggins »

What River said. He actually accomplished a lot. But you wouldn't know it, because for so much of the time he was letting his political enemies set the terms of the conversation. He was "above" responding, just like Kerry with the swift-boat attacks. I hope this mistake isn't similarly fatal. I really think the country can't afford what Romney would do to it. And I do think there are still worthwhile things that Obama can and would accomplish. Under Romney I just see my human rights (sorry) and my ability to get medical insurance to stay alive (sorry) and my hope that my intelligent, hardworking kids will ever get anything better than a Walmart job (sorry) all just vanishing into the mist.

Oh, and retiring. Won't happen.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
Holbytla
Posts: 5870
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 5:31 pm

Post by Holbytla »

Well according to the job numbers, the jobs created were Walmart jobs.

See? That is my most cynical side. :P

On a less lighter note, my second oldest son sent out forty, that is 40
job applications after he graduated with honors from a small prestigious school. He was a "Gifted and Talented" student and won a Presidential Achievement Award signed by President Clinton. He had a degree in finance and traded stocks in NYC.

No one. Not a firm in the financial district. Not Target. Not the local pizza joint, not no one would hire him for anything.

Being the ingenious knuckle headed fool that he is, he opted to join the military, despite my warnings and admonitions.

His devil in the details amounted to six years in the armed services and a year of that time in Afghanistan.

His future education (masters in some kind of biological engineering stuff that I know nothing of), and some of his past education has been and will be paid for by the US Government.

But at what cost? And was it worth it?
I highly doubt he would choose the same path if he had to do it all over again.

Really is it a choice between a Walmart world and laying your life on the line?

Is that still Bush's fault, or is that a fault in the philosophy?

Really what are the options for kids today and who is at fault for that?

Only one person gets to sit behind the desk that says " The Buck Stops Here".

Just one.

I don't care if it is Attila the Hun in opposition,. if you fail the people, you fail the people. And people are pretty in tune to that. However stupid they may be.

And for the luv o Pete; Obama is above nothing any other pol is above or will be above.

And Kerry tried to register his boat in Rhode Island to avoid paying Massachusetts taxes until he got caught.

They all are cut from the same fabric.

Some just have different coiffs.
Goodness!
Image
User avatar
yovargas
I miss Prim ...
Posts: 15011
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:13 am
Location: Florida

Post by yovargas »

Holbytla wrote:Boy, even to the ultimate cynic like me, that is a huge cop out answer.
I'm neither that blind or stupid.
Give me something with more teeth.
Okay. How bout - some quick googling showed that for Rush Limbaugh, 15 million listeners a week is considered "bad" ratings. (Couldn't find what "good" ratings were.) What percentage of actual voters do you think 15 million is?
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists


Image
User avatar
Nin
Ni Dieu, ni maître
Posts: 1825
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:19 pm
Location: Home

Post by Nin »

Holbytla wrote:Really is it a choice between a Walmart world and laying your life on the line?

Is that still Bush's fault, or is that a fault in the philosophy?

Really what are the options for kids today and who is at fault for that?
I honestly think, Holby that the fault is in the philosophy and not in one president or the other.

Now, Bush was a particular disaster and worlwide economy is in crisis, which does not help. But as I live in one of those islands where things work out differently - unemployment is low, people with degrees get jobs, health care is affordable and garanteed and the general level of wealth and security is overwhelming - I wonder what is going wrong in other places. You can't compare a small country like Switzerland to a big one like the US. But I see several very huge differences in structure and I think some of them are those differences "in the philosophy".

One is education. US-american universities are certainly excellent - but they come with a high cost. It excludes a huge part of the population from quality education. And of those who choose education, many of them will be heavily endebted for long years, if not for the rest of their lives. Here, university is free or almost. And yet, some are excellent. (Not all, I know!). People who choose education really get a start in professional life without debts. It's a priceless advantage. Would your son need an army financement if university was free? Or would just a job beside studying be sufficient?

The other is the attitude towards gouvernment. Your gouvernment is not your ennemy. In fact, in Switzerland, where we vote about ten times each year on every kind of issue, the gouvernement is very weak. (we change president every year... and he or she is not elected... that really is an exception in Europe too) But administration works and it is not at all the administration of one president. It stays in place when the head changes. Projects continue - they have usually been approved by the people, after all. So, there is continuity. It is less in other European countries, but never as much a cut as between two American presidents. Also, the gouverment is not your ennemy. A functionning state and public sector is the condition for the rest to work. And if you accept this truth, it does change a lot on general attitude towards gouvernment.
"nolite te bastardes carborundorum".
ToshoftheWuffingas
Posts: 1579
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:34 pm

Post by ToshoftheWuffingas »

I have gathered that on the day of Obama's inauguration the Republicans in Congress met and vowed to oppose every single thing from his administration regardless of merit or compromise. Their aim was to portray him as a failure. The last time I looked the POTUS does not have the powers of a dictator. So now people are blaming him for the deliberate actions of his opponents?
<a><img></a>
Erunáme
Posts: 2364
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:54 pm
Contact:

Post by Erunáme »

ToshoftheWuffingas wrote:So now people are blaming him for the deliberate actions of his opponents?
Of course they do. We've seen it in this very thread. And as to why Obama hasn't connected with more people, well yovargas and River are both correct, but we can also add good ol' fashioned racism and prejudice to the mix (against blacks and muslims.. even though Obama isn't a muslim). He seems more hated than Clinton by some and if one's honest, it's pretty easy to see why.
Prim wrote:I really think the country can't afford what Romney would do to it.
The world can't. American politics reach further than its own shores unfortunately. At least I won't have some of my rights erode here in regards to women's rights, but he could have a big effect on the economic side.
User avatar
Voronwë the Faithful
1000%
Posts: 38608
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
Contact:

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Erunáme wrote:
ToshoftheWuffingas wrote:So now people are blaming him for the deliberate actions of his opponents?
Of course they do. We've seen it in this very thread. And as to why Obama hasn't connected with more people, well yovargas and River are both correct, but we can also add good ol' fashioned racism and prejudice to the mix (against blacks and muslims.. even though Obama isn't a muslim). He seems more hated than Clinton by some and if one's honest, it's pretty easy to see why.
You beat me to it, Eru. I'm sure that some will deny that this is a significant factor, but I think it is a major one. And I'll further state that I believe that it comes from both parties, and across the political spectrum.
"Among the tales of sorrow there are yet some in which amid weeping there is joy and under the shadow of death light that endures."
User avatar
Voronwë the Faithful
1000%
Posts: 38608
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
Contact:

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Here is a perfect example of how out of touch Mitt Romney is. In an interview with the Columbus Dispatch in which he discusses his health care plans (without, of course, actually saying what those plans really are), he made this remarkable statement:
“We don’t have a setting across this country where if you don’t have insurance, we just say to you, ‘Tough luck, you’re going to die when you have your heart attack,’  ” he said as he offered more hints as to what he would put in place of “Obamacare,” which he has pledged to repeal.

“No, you go to the hospital, you get treated, you get care, and it’s paid for, either by charity, the government or by the hospital. We don’t have people that become ill, who die in their apartment because they don’t have insurance.”
Really? Really!? In truth, by one recent estimate, something like 18,000 people "die in their apartment because they don't have insurance" in this country a year.
"Among the tales of sorrow there are yet some in which amid weeping there is joy and under the shadow of death light that endures."
User avatar
yovargas
I miss Prim ...
Posts: 15011
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:13 am
Location: Florida

Post by yovargas »

I suppose in the most literal sense it's an factual statement that hospitals will treat you if you're having a heart attack and somebody will pay for it if you can't. But...yeah, clearly lack of insurance increases mortality rates a good bit... :neutral:
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists


Image
User avatar
Frelga
Meanwhile...
Posts: 18488
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:31 pm
Location: Home, where else

Post by Frelga »

Yes, if you go to the hospital, you'll probably get treated.

But you do not go with that chest pain, because it's probably just heartburn or pulled muscle, and you can't afford the copayment or can't pay for the appointment.

And you haven't seen a doctor in ten years, for the above reason, and so you can't call one to ask for advice. So you just rest a bit and take an aspirin.

And die in your apartment.
His philosophy was a mixture of three famous schools -- the Cynics, the Stoics and the Epicureans -- and summed up all three of them in his famous phrase, 'You can't trust any bugger further than you can throw him, and there's nothing you can do about it, so let's have a drink."

Terry Pratchett, Small Gods
Erunáme
Posts: 2364
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:54 pm
Contact:

Post by Erunáme »

Strange, Nick demanded to go to the ER not long after he arrived in the US which meant he had no insurance (turned out to be a panic attack, which was quite obvious :roll:) and a few hours later we were given a $1200 bill that no one paid for us...
User avatar
Griffon64
Posts: 3724
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:02 am

Post by Griffon64 »

Yep, if they have your contact information, which you give to them when you sign in, they have somewhere to send the bill, and you either pay it or go through the uncomfortable collections process, I suspect. There are plenty of people with no insurance but otherwise "in the system" and therefore traceable that I'd imagine does not get the "free" ER health care. It mostly is the guys with no address ( except "third bridge on the left" ) that does not pay directly.

I had to go to the ER earlier this year and walked away with my own $1,890 bill to pay. And we have insurance. We also have a high deductible - I think I've paid out of pocket for almost all medical needs this year.

I wonder if there is accurate numbers available for what percentage cost is not paid, paid for by insurance, or paid for out of pocket. I suspect since hospitals are their own entities the numbers are not readily available.
Holbytla
Posts: 5870
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 5:31 pm

Post by Holbytla »

yovargas wrote:
Holbytla wrote:Boy, even to the ultimate cynic like me, that is a huge cop out answer.
I'm neither that blind or stupid.
Give me something with more teeth.
Okay. How bout - some quick googling showed that for Rush Limbaugh, 15 million listeners a week is considered "bad" ratings. (Couldn't find what "good" ratings were.) What percentage of actual voters do you think 15 million is?
Limbaugh, Coulter and their ilk have been around for some time now. They have been a constant equation for quite a number of elections.
Voronwë the Faithful wrote:
Erunáme wrote:
ToshoftheWuffingas wrote:So now people are blaming him for the deliberate actions of his opponents?
Of course they do. We've seen it in this very thread. And as to why Obama hasn't connected with more people, well yovargas and River are both correct, but we can also add good ol' fashioned racism and prejudice to the mix (against blacks and muslims.. even though Obama isn't a muslim). He seems more hated than Clinton by some and if one's honest, it's pretty easy to see why.
You beat me to it, Eru. I'm sure that some will deny that this is a significant factor, but I think it is a major one. And I'll further state that I believe that it comes from both parties, and across the political spectrum.
I would agree with this. I have no way to quantify to what degree, but whatever degree it is, it's too much. I think that was the case four years ago as well.
I also believe that Obama has lost some support from the people who voted for him last time around. I don't think he'll lose the election, but he should be concerned as to why "his" voters are wavering.
Image
Holbytla
Posts: 5870
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 5:31 pm

Post by Holbytla »

I tried. I just can't watch these two jawing jackasses anymore. :bang:
Image
User avatar
vison
Best friends forever
Posts: 11961
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:33 pm
Location: Over there.

Post by vison »

Holbytla wrote:I tried. I just can't watch these two jawing jackasses anymore. :bang:
I watched for 5 minutes at the beginning and then 5 minutes just now.

WHAT is that Paul Ryan smirking about?????? He sits there with that superior, contemptuous look on his otherwise handsome face and I just want to slap him.

I'll wait for Wolf Blitzer or Anderson Cooper to tell me what to think. My brain is all fuzzy anyway. :)
User avatar
Voronwë the Faithful
1000%
Posts: 38608
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:41 am
Contact:

Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Biden certainly did not make the mistake of being "too polite." And as a result, the early returns are that he "won" the debate. That is what politics have come too.
"Among the tales of sorrow there are yet some in which amid weeping there is joy and under the shadow of death light that endures."
Erunáme
Posts: 2364
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:54 pm
Contact:

Post by Erunáme »

Voronwë the Faithful wrote:That is what politics have come too.
:(
Post Reply