Same-sex, whole-milk marriage: 50 Shades of Gay
gay as shameful is deeply ingrained in the culture. Along with Vison's story, I was a deeply introverted girl with one friend in 8th grade. And that friendship was ruined by people starting to spread the rumor that we were "lesbian." I didn't even know what lesbian was when somebody first whispered it as we passed. But I was shocked and shamed when I figured it out. And that was the end of our geeky twosome going to the tropical fish store, writing battlestar galactica fan stories, and reading every sci fi book we could get our hands on.
Do you have any grounds for that suspicion that you can share, yov? I would have said that that sort of Christianity was on the rise, not abating.yovargas wrote:Then Christian's of that ilk will simply go into decline over time as I would suspect they have been for some time.
Avatar photo by Richard Lykes, used with permission.
-
nerdanel
- This is Rome
- Posts: 5963
- Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:48 pm
- Location: Concrete Jungle by the Lagoon
Well, the increasing acceptance of homosexuality among American youth and young adults (say, those under 35) is quite encouraging. I think my generation has far less use for "that sort of Christianity" than its predecessors, and if the generation before us does not get around to it, I am quite confident that my generation will vehemently enshrine same-sex marriage in our secular law.Cerin wrote:Do you have any grounds for that suspicion that you can share, yov? I would have said that that sort of Christianity was on the rise, not abating.yovargas wrote:Then Christian's of that ilk will simply go into decline over time as I would suspect they have been for some time.
EDIT ... and I can think of few issues that the Judeo-Christian divinity troubled to speak to less than homosexual activity. In the Torah, the subject of lesbian activity is not even addressed. And if gay activity was such a crucial subject from a Christian standpoint, surely Jesus would have had some words of guidance on it.
Last edited by nerdanel on Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I won't just survive
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh
When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh
When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise
It is nothing more than anecdotal but I've seen several people exposed to things like the large amounts of evidence behind evolution or the general normal-ness and decency of gay friends and family who then found it hard to continue with the completely literal and unerringly true view of the Bible.Cerin wrote:Do you have any grounds for that suspicion that you can share, yov? I would have said that that sort of Christianity was on the rise, not abating.yovargas wrote:Then Christian's of that ilk will simply go into decline over time as I would suspect they have been for some time.
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
Certainly there is relatively little said on the subject, but I don't think it is assumed that because there is relatively little said, what is said is more easily disregarded.EDIT ... and I can think of few issues that the Judeo-Christian divinity troubled to speak to less than homosexual activity.
Avatar photo by Richard Lykes, used with permission.
-
Túrin Turambar
- Posts: 6153
- Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:37 am
- Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Even as a non-believer, I find the arguments that Judeo-Christian scripture does not condemn homosexuality to be weak.Cerin wrote:Certainly there is relatively little said on the subject, but I don't think it is assumed that because there is relatively little said, what is said is more easily disregarded.EDIT ... and I can think of few issues that the Judeo-Christian divinity troubled to speak to less than homosexual activity.
-
Primula Baggins
- Living in hope
- Posts: 40005
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:43 am
- Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
- Contact:
Christ had some interesting words on divorce, too (e.g., Matthew 5:32). Yet on a daily basis, Christians decide that they cannot obey those words; and the church and society are mostly not torn apart by it.
A few centuries ago, divorce in Christian countries was almost impossible. Now it's commonplace, but there are still Christians.
A few centuries ago, divorce in Christian countries was almost impossible. Now it's commonplace, but there are still Christians.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
-
Túrin Turambar
- Posts: 6153
- Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:37 am
- Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Yes, that's the thing that sets gay sex apart from these other issues in terms of social acceptance -- only a small minority of the population is gay, whereas large numbers of Christians had a personal incentive to overlook the scriptures on divorce and extra-marital sex.Lord_Morningstar wrote: It's easiest to condemn the sins that you're not personally tempted by. You can make up for your own failings that way.
Avatar photo by Richard Lykes, used with permission.
Yeah, there was a very vocally anti-homosexual evangelical pastor here in Colorado who tumbled onto his own sword rather spectacularly a few years ago. Lots of schadenfreude went around after that one, though honestly I just felt sorry for the guy. No one needs their self-destruction chronicled in major newspapers.
Actually, most people tend to ride others harder on areas where they themselves are weak or feeling insecure. The world is hostile enough you'd think people would know better than to paint targets on themselves but it happens all the time, and not just regarding sexuality. I've had complete slobs take me to task over cleanliness, for example.
Actually, most people tend to ride others harder on areas where they themselves are weak or feeling insecure. The world is hostile enough you'd think people would know better than to paint targets on themselves but it happens all the time, and not just regarding sexuality. I've had complete slobs take me to task over cleanliness, for example.
When you can do nothing what can you do?
-
nerdanel
- This is Rome
- Posts: 5963
- Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:48 pm
- Location: Concrete Jungle by the Lagoon
I didn't argue that Judeo-Christian scripture does not condemn homosexuality. It's just that in particular, I have a hard time believing that Jesus specifically was extremely concerned about behavior he didn't trouble to address even once. (and it IS the case - and has been rabbinically acknowledged - that the Torah does not condemn female homosexuality. There are some lesser rabbinic prohibitions on female homosexuality, but the god depicted in the Torah did not speak on the subject at all.)Lord_Morningstar wrote:Even as a non-believer, I find the arguments that Judeo-Christian scripture does not condemn homosexuality to be weak.Cerin wrote:Certainly there is relatively little said on the subject, but I don't think it is assumed that because there is relatively little said, what is said is more easily disregarded.EDIT ... and I can think of few issues that the Judeo-Christian divinity troubled to speak to less than homosexual activity.
I won't just survive
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh
When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh
When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise
-
Primula Baggins
- Living in hope
- Posts: 40005
- Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:43 am
- Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
- Contact:
I wonder if there isn't some selectivity going on for (unconscious) strategic reasons: some people deciding that sexual morality is the most important set of rules in the Bible, because until they can live up to those rules perfectly, they can't possibly move on to the whole (and doubtless much easier) business of selling everything they own, giving all the money to the poor, and following Jesus.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
-
nerdanel
- This is Rome
- Posts: 5963
- Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:48 pm
- Location: Concrete Jungle by the Lagoon
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/09/us/09marriage.html
GLAD and same-sex couples south of New England are bringing a second challenge to DOMA in the Second Circuit. This supplements the challenge in New England (First Circuit) that's been going for some time; same-sex couples won the first round, at the trial court, and the issue is now before the appellate court. In the end, both cases will probably be consolidated before the Supreme Court, assuming that the timing is right. I assume that the strategy here just involves pushing the issue in more jurisdictions, getting it in more newspapers, and showcasing the unfairness to which so many couples are subjected. Of course, multiple lawsuits increase the odds that at least one circuit will rule in the couples' favor, which can't ultimately hurt.
GLAD and same-sex couples south of New England are bringing a second challenge to DOMA in the Second Circuit. This supplements the challenge in New England (First Circuit) that's been going for some time; same-sex couples won the first round, at the trial court, and the issue is now before the appellate court. In the end, both cases will probably be consolidated before the Supreme Court, assuming that the timing is right. I assume that the strategy here just involves pushing the issue in more jurisdictions, getting it in more newspapers, and showcasing the unfairness to which so many couples are subjected. Of course, multiple lawsuits increase the odds that at least one circuit will rule in the couples' favor, which can't ultimately hurt.
I won't just survive
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh
When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh
When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise
nel, this is slightly off topic (just a clarification), but how does the Supreme Court consolidate two separate cases? 
Is it just that they will pick only one out of two cases whose rulings would have similar implications?
Is it just that they will pick only one out of two cases whose rulings would have similar implications?"I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived." - HDT
-
Lidless
- Rank with possibilities
- Posts: 823
- Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 1:06 am
- Location: Gibraltar
- Contact:
Yes, it's very clear in the bible.
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Leviticus 20:13
So basically active homosexuals should be put to death. Anyone subscribe to that? If we are using the bible as an argument you must use this. One cannot cheery-cherry-pick from the bible. Surely it's an all or nothing thing. Let's have a look at other rules in Leviticus and see if *anyone* here adheres to them.
For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death.
Leviticus 20:9
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
Leviticus 20:10
And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.
Leviticus 20:18
And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.
Leviticus 21:9
Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; no man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the Lord made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God. He shall eat the bread of his God, both of the most holy, and of the holy. only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries: for I the Lord do sanctify them.
Leviticus 21:17-23
Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.
Leviticus 24:14-16
Anyone follow Deuteronomy to the letter?
Anyone who dreams or prophesizes anything that is against God, or anyone who tries to turn you from God, is to be put to death. Deuteronomy 13:5
If anyone, even your own family suggests worshipping another God, kill them.
Deuteronomy 13:6-10
If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of its inhabitants... even the animals.
Deuteronomy 13:12-15
Kill anyone with a different religion.
Deuteronomy 17:2-7
(and people criticise 'Death to non-believers' in the Qu'ran)
The bible is used by every single Christian as a pick'n'mix. Ignore some of it, adhere to some of it. So when someone says "it's clearly in the bible", that argument holds no truck with me whatsoever.
Now maybe Jesus on the cross means we don't need to kill all these people, but sleeping with your wife during her period is a sin? People with disabilities cannot go to an altar? Er...OK...
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Leviticus 20:13
So basically active homosexuals should be put to death. Anyone subscribe to that? If we are using the bible as an argument you must use this. One cannot cheery-cherry-pick from the bible. Surely it's an all or nothing thing. Let's have a look at other rules in Leviticus and see if *anyone* here adheres to them.
For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death.
Leviticus 20:9
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
Leviticus 20:10
And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.
Leviticus 20:18
And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.
Leviticus 21:9
Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; no man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the Lord made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God. He shall eat the bread of his God, both of the most holy, and of the holy. only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries: for I the Lord do sanctify them.
Leviticus 21:17-23
Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.
Leviticus 24:14-16
Anyone follow Deuteronomy to the letter?
Anyone who dreams or prophesizes anything that is against God, or anyone who tries to turn you from God, is to be put to death. Deuteronomy 13:5
If anyone, even your own family suggests worshipping another God, kill them.
Deuteronomy 13:6-10
If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of its inhabitants... even the animals.
Deuteronomy 13:12-15
Kill anyone with a different religion.
Deuteronomy 17:2-7
(and people criticise 'Death to non-believers' in the Qu'ran)
The bible is used by every single Christian as a pick'n'mix. Ignore some of it, adhere to some of it. So when someone says "it's clearly in the bible", that argument holds no truck with me whatsoever.
Now maybe Jesus on the cross means we don't need to kill all these people, but sleeping with your wife during her period is a sin? People with disabilities cannot go to an altar? Er...OK...
It's about time.