Lalaith wrote:Well, I did think that after I typed it, Voronwë--that, in reality, I didn't like the Elves as they were portrayed in the Hobbit book as compared to the Sil or the LotR trilogy. They were silly and mean and generally rather unlikeable. In these movies, PJ made them ridiculous (whereas, in LotR, I thought they were mostly intriguing, powerful, mystical, and benevolent). In this movie, they were rather unlikeable because they were like bad actors in a bad soap opera. Bad dialogue, bad plots, laughable stunts, and melodramatic.
ETA: You're right, PtB. Every scene with Tauriel felt like a bad soap opera to me.
I'm glad you also thought the same thing about the symbolism of the scene with Galadriel and Gandalf.
Well, apart from Lee Pace's Thranduil, who did a marvellous job with what little room PJ gave him to manoeuvre, and salvaged some empathy for the damaged Elvenking, thus rising above an attempted character assassination....I couldn't agree more, Lali (and PtB)
There is magic in long-distance friendships. They let you relate to other human beings in a way that goes beyond being physically together and is often more profound.
~Diana Cortes
Agree very much with it. Although I like Legolas and Tauriel, actually ... but agree that everything plot wise to do with them is superfluous and badly written.
But movie Thranduil is one of my favourite film characterisations! He fleshes out the book's description that the Wood Elves are 'more dangerous and less wise' than the High Elves of the West. Love his glorious haughtiness to bits, and I also liked the slight softening of his character at the end. Even though the dialogue with Tauriel is dire.
Really like the Nebuchadnezzar analogy applied to Thorin. A much more successful depiction of Tolkienian descent into madness than that of Denethor.
Loved the battle scenes set in winter and the frozen waterfall.
"Frodo undertook his quest out of love - to save the world he knew from disaster at his own expense, if he could ... " Letter no. 246, The Collected Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien Avatar by goldlighticons on Live Journal
Hello, long time lurker here! Just wanted to add my 2 cents and say that I very much agree as well with the thoughts above. Though I did love everything the movie got right - I think some scenes manage to outshine the best of LOTR in their maturity and sublimity. Freeman and Armitage were both mesmerizing. However fans willingness to accept the movie might be directly correlated by how willing they are to forgive it for Legolas and Tauriel at Ravenhill (it nearly killed this thing for me, though I didn't read much spoilers so I wasn't prepared for it). I think the EE might restore some balance in the amount of screen time those particular characters got and solve a lot of my issues.
(spoilers)
The only things that I liked about Legolas being there was that he threw Thorin's sword back and saved him thus repaying Thorin for accidentally saving his life during the barrel scene in DOS. Also when Thranduil says that love hurts so much because it was real it cuts straight to Bilbo looking blank and mourning Thorin's death and Gandalf sitting next to him. I though that was quite lovely. I think it is implied that Bilbo was a quite a lonely guy before the dwarves arrived at his doorstep and a bit of a grumpy git, he probably never knew what real friendship was and how much sorrow can loosing loved ones cause. Also Thranduil's isolationist policy might be a direct reflection of how he shut himself in emotionally after his wife died.
To be honest I would be quite OK with Kili and Tauriel if they didn't make them a walking talking Hollywood cliche (young, pretty, flawless, in love nearly straight away, willing to die for it etc..).
btw.. anybody loved how Azog floating under ice looked like Smaug floating under the golden floor, shows how Thorin's fate was already sealed and tragic.
LoremIspum wrote:
The only things that I liked about Legolas being there was that he threw Thorin's sword back and saved him thus repaying Thorin for accidentally saving his life during the barrel scene in DOS.
Nice to meet you LoremIspum! I never felt that this was accidental. I liked the fact that Thorin deliberately saved Legolas' life, but that Legolas never knew.
And thats why I admire PJ. It may not have been scripted, but knowing when to let that go, and just live in the moment, is one of the best things he brought to this endeavour.
None was harder than that of Ian McKellen, whose final shooting scene as the wizard Gandalf consisted of a quiet moment where he sits with Martin Freeman’s Bilbo after a massive battle. The emotion of the moment inspired Jackson to cut the dialogue at the last minute so as to let the actors’ reactions speak for themselves.
LoremIspum wrote:
The only things that I liked about Legolas being there was that he threw Thorin's sword back and saved him thus repaying Thorin for accidentally saving his life during the barrel scene in DOS.
Nice to meet you LoremIspum! I never felt that this was accidental. I liked the fact that Thorin deliberately saved Legolas' life, but that Legolas never knew.
Ah yes, now that I re-watched that I agree
Ultimately I think BOFA was a movie about inevitability of things, you can't always save the life of people you love, you can't always escape your fate, the thing that strikes me about the ending is how joyless of a victory it is. Anyway I think BOFA is a lot more inspired than the previous two movies just that stuff doesn't gel together as well as in the previous two. The movie's got the absolute best and the worst of PJ in it, seems almost schizophrenic.
Passdagas the Brown wrote:the 2nd time around, Thorin struck me as a Tolkienian/ Jacksonian version of Nebuchadnezzar
I got Nebuchadnezzar from him in DoS when he constructed a giant golden idol. There's a fiery furnace involved too. The story doesn't parallel, but the symbols sure do. This was probably intentional.
LoremIspum, nice to see you coming out of the shadows here. I appreciate your thoughts, and everyone's.
SV wrote:PtB, your review belongs in the "professional reviews" thread.
Except that a so-called professional reviewer would have stuck with one viewing, and never appreciated the good parts.
Sadly, I'm not sure how much I will be able to say after I finally see it tomorrow, both because I will be out of town and I'm not sure how much of chance I will get to get online, and also because you will have all said everything worth saying by then.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
I want to see this movie...just to know that I have seen it. But I honestly do not know if I can sit through it. I despise the whole Legolas and Tauriel bits so much that I am afraid I would have to get up and leave. I'm am not sure I could hang on until the bitter end.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
"Live! Live! Live! Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death!" - Auntie Mame
Alatar wrote:And thats why I admire PJ. It may not have been scripted, but knowing when to let that go, and just live in the moment, is one of the best things he brought to this endeavour.
None was harder than that of Ian McKellen, whose final shooting scene as the wizard Gandalf consisted of a quiet moment where he sits with Martin Freeman’s Bilbo after a massive battle. The emotion of the moment inspired Jackson to cut the dialogue at the last minute so as to let the actors’ reactions speak for themselves.
Though sometimes that looseness with the story and script can lead to incoherence, I agree with you on this 100%. It's exactly why I prefer PJ to color-by-numbers directors such as Ron Howard and J.J. Abrams. He has a much freer, creative spirit. I may not share his tastes, for the most part, but I respect his process.
And the scene you reference above is, the more I think about it, the best character moment across the six films (for me, tied with Bilbo's morning in Bag End scene after the dwarves leave). It's one of those occasional, wonderful moments when PJ decides to whisper rather than shout. When I saw that scene, particularly the second time, I momentarily forgot about the Legolas and Tauriel material. It's that good.
Last edited by Passdagas the Brown on Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Smaug's voice wrote:PtB, your review belongs in the "professional reviews" thread.
You're too kind, SV! But I must agree with Voronwë. It's most certainly a fan review. Professionals don't geek out and watch a Hobbit film twice in two days.
Go figure, first post in a year and I double post . . . making up for lost time I guess.
Last edited by ArathornJax on Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1. " . . . (we are ) too engrossed in thinking of everything as a preparation or training or making one fit -- for what? At any minute it is what we are and are doing, not what we plan to be and do that counts."
J.R.R. Tolkien in his 6 October 1940 letter to his son Michael Tolkien.
2. We have many ways using technology to be in touch, yet the larger question is are we really connected or are we simply more in touch? There is a difference.
Well I checked and it's been a year and I finished up my EDd a week ago finally so now I have time to have a LIFE! I'll pop in more over the next year.
The movie is an adaptation for me, different then the book but I have always felt, and will always feel that the books release Middle Earth in my mind, and I view things as I see them based on my experience, my knowledge, my time. Thus why I re-read them every couple of years or so. In BOFA, and yes I use BOFA on purpose, the film as mentioned succeeds in the end, despite itself. The Elves or here I should say the woodland elves do come across as brazen and not so noble at times, and in a way, for me, it kinda of works because the Elves of Mirkwood were not as noble as their High Elven cousins of the west. I had several moments that were meaningful to me, the Bilbo and Gandalf one was magical; Bilbo returning home to Bag End insightful. Gain and loss was a very evident theme here, one the book deals with. I guess from where I am at, the movie was enjoyable, entertaining. As entertaining as the book? No, but I have come to accept both for what they are; the books a masterpiece that I read and re-read over and over again for enjoyment, learning and because I get something new out of them every time I read them that benefits me personally. The movies, are entertaining, and I will watch them again on DVD back to back to back to have that experience, but I have to say, I have not purchased the extended editions of the DVD's and really have no desire too. Guess I am just getting older and won't spend the money any more on a second purchase. If the extended was available at the time time of purchase I would pick it up then. So there, a movie worth attending and worth enjoying, and worthy of seeing PJ's vision of it. Still doesn't beat the Oscar Best Picture in my mind when I read the book. Oh, it has inspired me to start painting scenery from Middle Earth from my viewpoint and I guess that is a good thing. Again, that will come from my years of living in northern California and now in Utah but that can make for some interesting combinations for Middle Earth. Here's wishing each of you a most enjoyable time viewing, reading and discussing this wonderous place we call Middle Earth.
1. " . . . (we are ) too engrossed in thinking of everything as a preparation or training or making one fit -- for what? At any minute it is what we are and are doing, not what we plan to be and do that counts."
J.R.R. Tolkien in his 6 October 1940 letter to his son Michael Tolkien.
2. We have many ways using technology to be in touch, yet the larger question is are we really connected or are we simply more in touch? There is a difference.
I am exhausted at the moment and i cannot easily compose all my thoughts and feelings and make a proper review so i will some random thoughts. But before i start writing anything else i have to say this:Congratulations to Richard Armitage for giving maybe the best performance of the whole Middle Earth Saga. He was fantastic and with the most mature navigation of Jackson so far,as far as the actors are concerned, he elevated Thorin in an unprecedented high level of an overall awe-inspiring performance.Such a dramatic power and charisma. Despite reading some spoilers i was still amazed.The absolute highlight of the film in my opinion.
Random thoughts:
1)Smaug's attack in Laketown.The whole sequence was great and very tense with the moment of death being the highlight of it closely followed by the Bard/Bain interaction.
2)The whole first 2/3's of the film are the most mature minutes of Jackson's career as a director with the exception of Alfrid. As much as i loved him in DOS,i believe his constant invasion in some scenes was detrimental in an otherwise almost perfect first 90 minutes. Besides that mistep every other single character moment really shines during all the politics and negotiations and the "dragon sickness" of Thorin.
3)The Dol Guldur sequence was amazing and it did not feel short at all.Galadriel vs Sauron was a visual feast and the sword fighting of Elrond/Saruman against the Nazgûl was a very pleasant surprise.Something i had not seen before in any Middle Earth film.
4)Martin Freeman:my favourite Hobbit and again one of the most mature performances of the whole Saga and on par with the sweeping performance or Armitage in BOTFA.His character transformation was so visible in this film.My two cents.Lee Pace,Evangeline Lilly(tremendous surprise),Ken Stott , Luke Evans and Ian with stellar performances.Actually, the acting in the Hobbit films is much better than the one from the LOTR trilogy.
5)Some battle sequences are spectacular with Lee Pace and Lee Pace with his elk being the highlights of them.The arrival and characterisation of Dain Ironfoot was a very welcome surpirse as well.I liked it very much but i wanted more of him.The moment where Thorin and the Dwarves charge outside Erebor and join Dain and his clan in the battlefield with the words of Gandalf "They are rallying for their King" was very chilling.Made the hairs of my neck "dance" .
6)Ravenhill and the Fate of Durin's Sons:This is the sequence that had the most heartbreaking and thrilling parts but on the same time,the worst parts of this film.(Fortunately the worst were only two many).And no,i do not refer to the deaths.All of them were greatly executed especially Kili's one which was the second most heartbreaking moment of the film after Thorin's last words to Bilbo.Aidan Turner and Evangeline Lilly nailed it. The mute pain in their faces during the inevitable death of our young Dwarf brought many tears in my eyes.The worst parts of this sequence were some overproduced moments during the two major duels,ThorinvsAzog and LegolasvsBolg which i found distracting and completely unnecessary since the build up of the tension was satisfying.
7)The relationship between Thorin and Bilbo. Enough said.It was perfect and better than i had imagined it to be.
8)The ending did not feel so rushed to me.Sure,some scenes are missing but it was fine for a theatrical edition
All in all,i loved this film and i am looking forward to my second viewing and the Extended Edition. I could live with less Alfrid,and more underproduced duels in the Ravenhill sequence.
Right now, i liked it better than AUJ and slightly more than DOS.
I LOVED Legolas' stunts during Barrels Out of Bond in DOS. It was some fun stuff. I liked his stunt in FOTR (the chain-walking), and tolerated his stunts in TTT and ROTK. What all those stunts had in common - which is at the center of why I didn't mind them - is that they were peripheral moments. They made some scenes a little more fun, or a little more silly, but they weren't imbued with any importance.
The opposite is the case with Legolas' stuff in BOFA. It's all tied up with this mind-numbingly contrived "rivalry" between him and Bolg, and so the fight is the culmination of a buildup that began at the close of DOS. All of Bolg's scenes in BOFA, and the entire Gundabad plot, builds to this final fight with Legolas (and Tauriel). And so we spend ages on it. And then we get silliness that takes ages to play out, because it's wrapped up in this long and flat subplot. And for that reason, I hated it. It wasn't fun like Legolas' previous stunts. It was all wrapped up in this faux-drama about Bolg, Legolas' mother's death at the hands of Gundabad forces, *insert other throwaway motivations here*. And it goes on and on. And it's serious, and played seriously. And all while we're trying to keep our minds on what's happening with Thorin and Bilbo.
That's why the Legolas stuff is the biggest mistake of the film for me. It's so big. There's so much of him. And none of it is dramatically compelling. He even seems to dominate the drama in the aftermath of the battle (even though I liked the moment when Thranduil can't quite tell Legolas that he loves him...)
Ditto for Tauriel's material this time around. It just takes soooo long, and it's simultaneously undercooked and overwrought. Feels false.
Without the subplots regarding the children of Thranduil, and with that saved time being focued on Bilbo and Thorin, I think this film (and DOS) could have been critical successes on par with LOTR.
Last edited by Passdagas the Brown on Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Passdagas the Brown wrote:One thing that may need clarification.
I LOVED Legolas' stunts during Barrels Out of Bond in DOS. It was some fun stuff. I liked his stunt in FOTR (the chain-walking), and tolerated his stunts in TTT and ROTK. What all those stunts had in common - which is at the center of why I didn't mind them - is that they were peripheral moments. They made some seems a little more fun, or a little more silly, but they weren't imbued with any importance.
The opposite is the case with Legolas' stuff in BOFA. It's all tied up with this mind-numbingly contrived "rivalry" between him and Bolg, and so the fight is the culmination of a buildup that began at the close of DOS. All of Bolg's scenes in BOFA, and the entire Gundabad plot, builds to this final fight with Legolas (and Tauriel). And so we spend ages on it. And then we get silliness that takes ages to play out, because it's wrapped up in this long and flat subplot. And for that reason, I hated it. It wasn't fun like Legolas' previous stunts. It was all wrapped up in this faux-drama about Bolg, Legolas' mother's death at the hands of Gundabad forces, *insert other throwaway motivations here*. And it goes on and on. And it's serious, and played seriously. And all while we're trying to keep our minds on what's happening with Thorin and Bilbo.
I have to disagree there. They felt exactly the same to me as all the other "Lego" moments. Fun, over-the-top, almost slapstick. I never felt like I was being asked or expected to take it seriously. They're moments of release, to counterpoint the serious business of Thorin/Azog. IMHO of course.
Fair enough. But then why all the set up for Legolas vs. Bolg? Their fight at the end of DOS, Legolas and Tauriel's conversation ("I know who that orc was - it was Bolg"), Bolg reporting to Azog about Legolas and Tauriel, Legolas telling Tauriel about his mother's death at the hands of Gundabad forces, a big and long showdown between Bolg, Legolas and Arwen (competing with Thorin and Azog, in the exact same location...) and then Thranduil's mention of Legolas' mother at the close of the battle. PJ and company seemed to think it very important to personalize the fight between Bolg and the elves, and he therefore spent a lot of time building it up and executing it.
IMO, I would have much preferred to simply have Legolas participate in the BOFA as a great captain, do some cool stuff, and leave it at that. As it stands, he chewed up ages of screentime.
That said, I have never been a serious Legolas-hater. I have enjoyed a lot of his stunts. But both times I watched BOFA, I couldn't wait for his scenes to be over.
Although I like Legolas and Tauriel, actually ... but agree that everything plot wise to do with them is superfluous and badly written. 
