The Hall of Fire DoS Review Thread

[yovargas]

Your rationalization skills are becoming something to behold!

[Passdagas the Brown]

Come on. You think PJ just said: it would be loads of fun to have a confusing sequence that ends with a massive golden dwarf statue exploding?

Clearly, he was trying to make a thematic point with that image. Otherwise, he could have gone with a far more conventional strategy - like having the dwarves drop a ton of stones on Smaug, or a giant net, or bring a gate down on his head, or whatever. Which would have made more sense, but would have been boring and uni-dimensional (as I felt Goblintown was).

It was pretty bold, on a purely visual level. And it felt like the crazy stuff that happens in mythology - like Thor's travails in the Poetic Edda, Cuhullin's over-sized stunts in the Irish cycles, or even Gilgamesh's mad plans. And for that reason, I couldn't have cared less how illogical it was.

[yovargas]

Come on. You think PJ just said: it would be loads of fun to have a confusing sequence that ends with a massive golden dwarf statue exploding?

Well, I don't think it was intentionally confusing but yes, I think that's exactly what happened. He needed a big action climax, he wanted the dwarves involved, he was literally standing on a mountain of gold, so this is what we got. It's the exact same way we got Bombur's barrel roll and Leggy's barrel hopping (but with less entertaining results).

[Voronwë the Faithful]

That image was no accident, no matter how much you insist upon it.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Come on. You think PJ just said: it would be loads of fun to have a confusing sequence that ends with a massive golden dwarf statue exploding?

Well, I don't think it was intentionally confusing but yes, I think that's exactly what happened. He needed a big action climax, he wanted the dwarves involved, he was literally standing on a mountain of gold, so this is what we got. It's the exact same way we got Bombur's barrel roll and Leggy's barrel hopping (but with less entertaining results).

But why a massive gold statue of a dwarven King, and why Thorin standing on its shoulders? Couldn't they have simply had the molten gold pour down on Smaug from above, or something less confusing?

There are literally thousands of other options to choose from for a dwarf-dragon confrontation. This was chosen because of its subtext. I am about 98% certain of that.

Perhaps an interviewer will ask PJ soon, since so many fans scratched their heads about it? Either that or we wait for the EE.

Either way, I'm prepared to put some money on it. Or even some gold!

[yovargas]

But why a massive gold statue of a dwarven King, and why Thorin standing on its shoulders?

Cuz it looked kewl.


And as I said earlier, a far more apt comparison than something like Gilgamesh would be Pirates of the Caribbean. That movie was filled with crazy OTT stunts exactly along those lines. So was The Mummy, come to think of it. The recent animated Tintin had a few fun nutty sequences along these lines too. Probably just about any big blockbuster that doesn't care about being taken too seriously has these kinds of big crazy capers. Just nobody's calling them the stuff of legend and myth.

[Passdagas the Brown]

The previous stuff in the mines, maybe.

But not the giant dwarf statue. That is a very specific image, and it is confusing to a lot of people. Why confuse?

If he was going for a simple Pirates of the Caribbean thrill, why not rolling boulders, a simple waterfall of gold, falling gates, or something else that makes some sense?

Placing a large exploding golden dwarf statue in front of Smaug is not an obvious "action-adventure" choice (and I see no parallels in Tintin, or Pirates, or any of those blockbusters). It contains clear and unsubtle symbolism, AND it looks cool.

Guaranteed that we will hear more about this scene in the not-too-distant future, and it will be explained that there was a thematic edge to it.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Really looking forward to the director/writer commentary for this film.

[Dave_LF]

I did have to wonder how there could possibly be that much gold just sitting in the forges. I mean, it made a solid gold statue the size of a dragon! And Smaug just overlooked this monstrous cache during his mound building? But, as noted, reality was kind of out the door by that point.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Reality was out the door when PJ decided to direct!

But what I can't agree with yovargas about was that the gold statue was inserted simply because it looked "kewl." The dwarf plan to kill Smaug is so confusing, and the end point is so odd, that PJ's decision only makes sense if the symbolism of a massive gold statue of a dwarf king, with Thorin on its shoulder, was driving the whole concept.

I am usually the first to accuse PJ of focusing far more on the "kewl" than telling a good story, but in this case, I think he married those two goals.

[yovargas]

But not the giant dwarf statue. That is a very specific image, and it is confusing to a lot of people. Why confuse?

Why indeed. If he just wanted the visual of Thorin standing on a big, gold statue, he would've just put Thorin on a big, gold statue. You don't do the big long complicated action sequence just to get him on a big statue. You do the big long complicated action sequence to get to the big cool payoff. I'm not saying they didn't note or intend the thematic parallel, but if that had been the main purpose of that moment it wouldn't have been preceded by all the confusing chaos.

But reeeeally my original comment was more directed at this:

But even narratively, I could imagine Beren and Lúthien pulling some crazy stunt like that to bring down Morgoth.

That's what I meant when I referenced Pirates or The Mummy or Tintin. Big bad fantasy villain is always defeated by a big fantastical action scheme.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Oh sure - on such a general structural level you're right - the drawn out action sequence is PJ following the traditional structures of such movies. My only disagreement is about the specific choice of the statue. I think PJ felt he was killing two birds here, marrying the "cool climactic sequence" required of a blockbuster, with a powerful symbolic image that complemented Thorin's character arc. And the idea that a giant gold statue would draw Smaug to Thorin, and thus make him vulnerable, was what I thought was Beren and Luthienesque in its larger than life strangeness.

Personally, I would have cut out all that mine shaft and forges stuff, but that's me.

ETA: Someone tell the Oxford English Dictionary people that we have just coined the word "Beren and Luthienesque."

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'll get right on that!

[Holbytla]

That image was no accident, no matter how much you insist upon it.

That image and any and all portions of any film or book or screenplay is only what it is according to how it spoke to you.

No author, publisher, director or artist of any sort can be all things to all people and could never satisfy everyone. Ever. Any portion of any work is only as good to you as how it speaks to you.

However there is a certain discernment in connection to these movies and that was known when the job of director, writer and actor was taken, and when the fan determined to watch these films.

Material can only be stretched so far and disbelief as well. There has to be a common ground somewhere where the two parties can meet.

[axordil]

There has to be a common ground somewhere where the two parties can meet.

Or at enough of them to reach a critical (badumching) mass, as it were.

I know when I'm writing, there are things I put in that will skate right by a chunk of my readership, even a majority, especially the first time. The text remains patiently present, though, in hopes of a repeat visit.

[axordil]

There's a fair amount of iconography around golden statues out there, by the way. Western (the Golden Calf, the golden statue of Nebuchadnezzar) and Eastern (the Gold Buddha shrines in Thailand and other countries). Staturary on that scale is inherently symbolic--and making it of gold is like sending up a flare to call attention to it.

Plus it actually ends up making Smaug "the Golden" for a few, glorious moments.

[Lalaith]

So I saw it today.

It was pretty good. I didn't love it, but there were parts of it that I did love. I loved Smaug. Loved, loved, loved him! That was one awesome dragon! Bilbo is, once again, awesome. (Martin Freeman outperforms everyone else in the film, imo, with the exception of being on par with Ian McKellan.)

I did enjoy Legolas, and I didn't mind Tauriel either. Some of the action sequences were over-the-top, but I do love my Elves. (I enjoyed seeing Thranduil's realm.)

Beorn, meh. Dol Guldur, meh. I did enjoy some of the audio effects when Gandalf faces the Necromancer. (One of my favorite things from LotR was the audio effect when the light blast emerges from Minas Morgul.) The spiders were sufficiently creepy and awful. That was a good job! Some of the stuff that I think is lame others obviously find funny. (The barrel action sequence, for example.) People were laughing in the theatre.

I liked Bard, though he looks so much like Orlando Bloom that it's kind of distracting!

I loved the golden Smaug at the end!

I knew that ending was coming, but, obviously, most of the rest of the theatre did not. You could hear the exclamations everywhere. (Basically, moaning and groaning about being left hanging. Well played, PJ.)

So, overall, quite good! Not fantastic, but quite good. Honestly, Smaug made up for a lot.

[Passdagas the Brown]

There's a fair amount of iconography around golden statues out there, by the way. Western (the Golden Calf, the golden statue of Nebuchadnezzar) and Eastern (the Gold Buddha shrines in Thailand and other countries). Staturary on that scale is inherently symbolic--and making it of gold is like sending up a flare to call attention to it.

Plus it actually ends up making Smaug "the Golden" for a few, glorious moments.

I loved that visual pun. And it looked absolutely fantastic. I mean, a dragon covered in gold flying out of the ruins of the dwarf city of Erebor. What's not to love?

[Passdagas the Brown]

Lalaith,

That's exactly how I felt about the film. Only I was "meh" about none of it!

I've become a slobbering PJ fanboy.

Perhaps TABA will set me straight?

[Teremia]

My experience was almost exactly like Lali's!

I would have preferred the film with fewer orcs, fewer heads flying, and less barrel-riding! Oh, and what I hated most was Thorin riding a plume of molten gold. NO. I'm fine with the bending of the rules of physics, to a certain extent, but hot stuff that just doesn't seem hot? No.

(not to mention that if dragon's breath is hot enough to restart ancient furnaces, hiding behind a pillar while the breath goes past is not going to keep you safe, now, is it?)

I loved all the quiet bits, and kept hoping we'd have a quiet bit that would not be interrupted by a sudden WHOOSH, but no--every time, the sudden whoosh.

Smaug and Bilbo were absolutely terrific, however. And I liked the thrush; and Bard's children hiding under the table.