The Hall of Fire DoS Review Thread

[Passdagas the Brown]

That was definitely not credible

If you were to make a list of this movie's definitely not credible moments, this would be on it, but it wouldn't even brake the top 10.

Haha! Probably at number 147.

Funnily enough, the least credible moment for me was not in Erebor, but in Laketown, when that orc was flung up into the air from the boat, and beheaded by Legolas standing on a balcony. That didn't work for me because it was such a useless scene, and wasn't staged in an interesting way. The context of an "incredible" moment is very, very important, IMO.

[Passdagas the Brown]

So maybe your ideal director would not be David Lean but David Lynch?

Well, Peter Jackson just proved he has a little Lynch in him, so that might be redundant.

I'd still pay a million bucks to watch a LOTR or Hobbit film directed by a zombie David Lean.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Risen by Peter Jackson's necromancer?

[yovargas]

I am highly amused that you're viewing this through such an artsy lens. It was just a bunch of big wild goofy fun. I definitely can't see that it is - or wants to be - much more than that.

It's not a fever dream. It's a kid playing with his action figures. Just-for-the-fun-of-it imagination let loose. (King Kong had this kind of "a kid and his toys" sense to me too and I actually liked it more than most people seemed to.)

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Totally disagree, yov. After seeing it a second time, I am close to saying that it is a flawed masterpiece. And maybe my favorite of all five Middle-earth films.

PtB, I hear what you are saying about watching it with the sound off, but then we would lose Jackson brilliant, repeated use of quiet, which was something that struck very strongly on my second viewing. Not long periods of quiet, but highly effective.

[Passdagas the Brown]

I am highly amused that you're viewing this through such an artsy lens. It was just a bunch of big wild goofy fun. I definitely can't see that it is - or wants to be - much more than that.

It's not a fever dream. It's a kid playing with his action figures. Just-for-the-fun-of-it imagination let loose. (King Kong had this kind of "a kid and his toys" sense to me too and I actually liked it more than most people seemed to.)

I don't think PJ is artsy, but he lives for film. I really like the silly and oddly frightening Harryhausen films, and I love some of the old silent gems from Lang and others, including the horror flicks. PJ is known to draw a lot of inspiration from these films, and his Heavenly Creatures does indeed have a very deliberate, fever dream quality to it. IMO, DOS feels more like Heavenly Creatures, in a very broad brush way, than AUJ or LOTR!

Yes, PJ is having fun. But he's letting his inner visual style loose in a way that he's been afraid to before, and his influences are probably flowing free as a result.

Did he intend to communicate all this junk I'm talking about? Possibly not all of it. But I have no doubt that he thought about the visual language of this film very carefully. Perhaps more carefully than for LOTR and AUJ.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Totally disagree, yov. After seeing it a second time, I am close to saying that it is a flawed masterpiece. And maybe my favorite of all five Middle-earth films.

PtB, I hear what you are saying about watching it with the sound off, but then we would lose Jackson brilliant, repeated use of quiet, which was something that struck very strongly on my second viewing. Not long periods of quiet, but highly effective.

Good point - and I did notice that PJ utilized silence more often than previously (though sometimes, just when you think he'll keep the intrusive music out, it comes blaring back in too soon).

Partly for the reason you suggest, I would also be interested in watching it with only the sound effects on (but no dialogue or music). Just have to find a video editor that can separate the tracks...

And I think I have to agree. IMO, this is PJ's best Middle Earth film yet.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

By the way, I noticed that the "healing scene" had not 2 LOTR references (the Arwen light and the Éowyn "I'm going to save him" line), but 3. There is also Kili's "it is a dream" which references Aragorn to Arwen.

As for the light, that was the light of Aman shining through Tauriel, as some have ranted and raved about. It was merely Kili's fevered imagination. And quite nice, if it wasn't for the inevitable referring back to the Arwen scene.

[Passdagas the Brown]

By the way, I noticed that the "healing scene" had not 2 LOTR references (the Arwen light and the Éowyn "I'm going to save him" line), but 3. There is also Kili's "it is a dream" which references Aragorn to Arwen.

As for the light, that was the light of Aman shining through Tauriel, as some have ranted and raved about. It was merely Kili's fevered imagination. And quite nice, if it wasn't for the inevitable referring back to the Arwen scene.

One of your "was"es should be a "wasn't," I believe.

[kzer_za]

With some reservations, I liked it! I will have to see it again to decide how I rank it with the others though.

Good:
- Most of the dwarves, especially Thorin and Balin
- The visuals in general - Lots of great location shooting in this one!
- Beorn (what little we got)
- Thranduil
- Tauriel (minus Kili)
- Mirkwood and the Spiders
- Bilbo
- The Ring (though Bilbo mostly not wearing it around Smaug is odd)
- Laketown
- The woodland elves. I feel like they did a good job portraying a different side of the elves than you see in the LotR trilogy and going beyond The Hobbit in a sensible way to help develop them.
- Bard
- SMAUG
- Most of the action
- Despite the many additions and deviations, the movie basically feels like The Hobbit - a fun adventure full of all sorts of different peoples and places.

Bad:
- Tauriel and Kili. While not as bad as I feared, I really disliked the healing scene. I like Tauriel apart from this too.
- Legolas. I was happy to see him at least get beat up by Bolg,
- The violence. This movie just seems to delight in its fancy decapitations and cool kills a little too much and doesn't really have a notion of the cost or seriousness of war to balance it like some of the other middle-earth movies do. (I'm sure TABA will rectify the latter though).
- Related to the above - the interrogation scene, with that Thranduil one-liner.
- The statue. I'm mostly okay with the dwarf-Smaug stuff, but the statue breaking up is just so utterly nonsensical.

Meh:
- Dol Guldur. I'm not really wild about the actual plotline or events here, but the visuals helped a lot.

I think the EE for this will have a lot of good stuff.

[yovargas]

There is also Kili's "it is a dream" which references Aragorn to Arwen.

There were a lot of lines or phrases that felt like they were straight lifted out of LOTR. Personally I find it kind of annoying.

[kzer_za]

Did anyone else catch the Orc licking something and saying "Dwarf blood!" as a reference to Gimli's "Orc blood!"

[narya]

And "King's Foil? It's a weed!"

- The violence. This movie just seems to delight in its fancy decapitations and cool kills a little too much and doesn't really have a notion of the cost or seriousness of war to balance it like some of the other middle-earth movies do. (I'm sure TABA will rectify the latter though).

Good points. LOTR had fanciful killings but also a sadness about going to war. In the movie Hobbit, where does the armed conflict end and the war begin? It seems like they've already started the battle of the the 5 armies.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

By the way, I noticed that the "healing scene" had not 2 LOTR references (the Arwen light and the Éowyn "I'm going to save him" line), but 3. There is also Kili's "it is a dream" which references Aragorn to Arwen.

As for the light, that was the light of Aman shining through Tauriel, as some have ranted and raved about. It was merely Kili's fevered imagination. And quite nice, if it wasn't for the inevitable referring back to the Arwen scene.

One of your "was"es should be a "wasn't," I believe.

Yup.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

The violence. This movie just seems to delight in its fancy decapitations and cool kills a little too much and doesn't really have a notion of the cost or seriousness of war to balance it like some of the other middle-earth movies do. (I'm sure TABA will rectify the latter though).

I think this is part of a deliberate progression. In AUJ, the violence was completely cartoony. In DoS it was still a lot of kewlness, but it was definitely more serious, with Kili's wound, Gandalf's capture, and even Legolas's bloody nose. TABA will complete the transition to LOTR-level seriousness (and likely then some).

[ArathornJax]

SPOILERS. Read if you don't mind them.


Overall, it was enjoyable as a movie. However, at times I was thinking it is more a video game then anything. I enjoyed it as a film. I would agree the location and visual imagery was magnificent I really do enjoy Balin, and in a way I wonder if it will give more meaning to the grieving we see at his tomb in Moria in the FOTR. Mirkwood and the spiders were interesting. I wonder if the distinction between the Silvan/Nandor elves of Mirkwood and the Noldor and Vanyar is enough or complicates the plot? Both hunt orcs for their own reasons, both appear withdrawn and self-centered. To be honest, I wonder how these races came together to defeat Sauron later in the LOTR? Hmmm, are the elves of the film adaptation the cry babies and isolationists of Middle Earth? In all serious when Thranduil comes with his army at the Battle of Five Armies I wonder how much it will be like Haldir and the Elves of Lothlórien coming to Helm's Deep in TTT? Will the sacrifice and death of the Elves at BOFA be as meaningful of Haldir and his Elves sacrificing themselves at Helm's Deep?

Bilbo for me is the best here or should I say I love Martin Freeman as an actor. The One Ring is consistent with LOTR so there is continuity there. Perhaps my personal biggest challenge here is do we see Bilbo's development as a character here being from himself, or from having the One Ring? One thing I LOVE from the book is Bilbo grows and develops, and the ring is a tool he uses (yes, I know it's not the BIG BAD One Ring yet) but Bilbo's very nature delayed its influence. Here in the movie I think I see Bilbo's character developing from the One Ring. Again, I will see it again next Friday so perhaps that will change but I want Bilbo to change because of himself, his situation he finds himself in, and I think the movie failed that for me. It wasn't until much later, after having the One Ring for a long period of time that his nature from the Ring changed or began to change. We see that as he struggles to give it up and in the appendixes. Bilbo eventually does something that no one possessing the One Ring could do, give it up. It is a personal victory for Bilbo and his character and who he was. I felt the movie took some of that away for me. I said the movies would make it or break it for me on Bilbo. I LOVE Martin Freeman as stated. I enjoy Bilbo but there just seems to be a different direction in the movie for Bildo, one I am not sure I like. I am probably not stating this correctly either.

Dol Guldor. Hmmm. I need to see it a second time but it wasn't needed I felt.

Smaug. I read somewhere that Tolkien fans felt Smaug was small and not as big. I have always had a vision of a massive dragon, and Smaug here delivers. The question I have do you think the dwarves had enough fear of Smaug or was this mitigated to some extent?

Tauriel: I like her character, she fits with Elvish women in Jackson's Middle Earth being wiser and more far sighted then their male counterparts. I also understand her role in the movie so no biggie. I am not fan of the Kili and Tauriel connection. Hmmm, perhaps that is how Círdan ended up with a beard (I know how Círdan got a beard by Tolkien, just a poor attempt at a joke).

I guess I'm losing it. I didn't buy the extended edition of the first Hobbit movie and though I'll get this, I won't buy the extended edition on the DOS either. I'll wait til they are offered in a 3 for one package.

Overall, an enjoyable movie if you go to enjoy it as a movie. Jackson has a vision of Middle Earth and delivers that vision of MIddle Earth again. I would say a Tolkien fan has to realize that there are now two visions of Middle Earth; Tolkien's and Tolkien's modified by Peter Jackson. Enjoy both for what they are. Books still are the best IMHO and YMMV.

Edit: I wonder if people who were here for round 1 (LOTR) are as connected to the characters here in round 2 (The Hobbit) or will the deaths that are coming not be as emotional? I teared up at the death of Théoden. I also felt emotion at Boromir's death. I LOVED Aragorn's comment "For Frodo" at the Black Gate. I felt a connection for Sam (probably similar to Bilbo but not as much) from FOTR on. I also have to say, I did feel pity for Gollum as he fell in ROTK. Last, at the Gray Havens I had tears streaming down my face the first time I saw that. I am wondering if I will feel those at the BOFA and afterwards? I haven't decided if I am as emotionally connected to these characters (Bilbo, yes). I guess I'll find out in a year.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Hey, AJ!

[ArathornJax]

Hi Voronwë! How are you?

[Pearly Di]

My review in brief:

Most enjoyable.

Although too long.

But I think this is the PJ film with least annoyances. Even given that utterly ludicrous sequence with Smaug and the Dwarves using his dragonfire to fire up the forges. Beyond daft, all of that, and very very PJ.

But. Most enjoyable.

- Martin's Bilbo continues to be an utter joy. I loved how kick-ass Bilbo was in Mirkwood! Oh, if only PJ had understood the heroism of Bilbo's heir aright.
- Smaug is just a fabulous villain. Cumberbatch nails his conceitedness as well as his wiliness!
- Sauron, in this film, was BRILLIANTLY realised.
- Balin overcome with emotion at the door of Erebor. Beautiful moment.
- I adored the set design for Thranduil's realm. Adored it. The Mirkwood Elves are less upgrade than the Lothlórien Elves, and that's canon. They have a dangerous, unpredictable edge to them, and that's canon too.
- Honestly, I loved Legolas being all hard-ass in this instalment. He seems to have mellowed a lot by FotR.
- Tauriel. I liked her. Much is forgiven PJ because a) Evangeline is a decent actress and b) the Kili thing foreshadows Gimli/Galadriel.
- I loved Beorn.
- And Thorin. And everyone else.
- And Bard.

The film is STAGGERINGLY beautiful. Just gorgeous in every respect.

That'll do for now.

I enjoyed it very much. I'll go again!

[yovargas]

Damnit.....I did leave the movie largely thinking a "yeah, that was a fun movie! (minus that ending)" but the more I think about it the more stuff i keep remembering I didn't like. *sigh*