Azog the Idiot!

Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:18 pm

How's that for a provocative thread title. It's misleading, too, because I don't really want to talk so much about Azog's intellectual capacity, or lack there in, but rather the (apparently late) decision to make him the main adversary in the first film. I really think this is the prime product of what SA likes to call the Screenwriting 101 mentality of the scriptwriters. Conventional wisdom says that you have to have a main, physical adversary in a film, so they invented this new story for Azog to be that main adversary in AUJ. But it comes across as oh so contrived, to me at least. I understand that they want to reserve Bolg for later (probably TABA, I hope and assume, Smaug himself being the main baddie in DOS). But I really think they could have gotten away without a main baddie in this film and it would not have suffered at all. I know some people like Azog's look (I don't particularly, but I don't hate it), but I just think the whole thing comes across as convoluted, and unnecessarily contradicts the books.

Post by **Dave_LF** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:36 pm

What gets me though is that it clearly wasn't a late decision to have the 2 warg attacks play out the way they did; they must have just digitally replaced some other orc with Azog (I'm sure an individual line or shot here and there was a pickup). Indications seem to be that Yazneg (the one who got thrown to the wolves) was originally meant to have led the attack at the end (the Lego set of that scene has a Yazneg figure on a white warg). So what was supposed to happen to him after that? Who was the main villain of film 1 in the 2 film script?

Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:29 pm

If there ever really was a 2 film script.

Post by **Primula Baggins** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:04 pm

It must have existed in some form, if the studio greenlighted two films.

Post by **Elentári** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:11 pm

I've been posting about this on TORn...

I reckon, judging by the casting history that we know, Conan Stevens was originally going to be a character called Azog. I believe that this is what is now called "Bolg", and was originally meant to be a zombie Azog "resurrected" by Sauron in Dol Guldur. When the change to 3 films occurred PJ/Boyens decided that they needed another Azog, and firstly turned to John Rawls "Yazneg" but that design was too generic and they wants something completely different and identifiable for Azog...thus they finally turned to Manu Bennett to do the mo-cap for a CGI Pale Orc.

With regards to the necessity of Azog's vendetta storyline in AUJ to build him up for the Bo5A, there is none:

The whole reason the Goblins turn up at the Bo5A is for revenge over the Great Goblin's death, and they join forces with Bolg's Gundabad Orcs on route, since the news had reached Bolg of Thorin's role in the GG's death and that kindled his hatred of the Dwarves of Durin's line even further. The book makes perfect sense. By all means have a flashback to Moria, and Azog's death, but tie it to Bolg, and leave him in Gundabad until after the GG's death. No need for warg chases across Eriador...

Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:37 pm

I agree. A case of Screenwriting 101, gone haywire.

Post by **axordil** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:30 pm

But I really think they could have gotten away without a main baddie in this film and it would not have suffered at all.

Is there an example of a major studio releasing a big-budget action-oriented movie without a "bad guy" in the last generation? Especially one that's over two hours?

Post by **SirDennis** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:32 am

Voronwë the Faithful wrote:If there ever really was a 2 film script.

I know I'd speculated -- more like asserted, such is my way at times -- that they wanted to make 3 films all along and the July announcement was just a ruse. But now I think they actually made such a late decision because they realized a longer first film of a 2 film Hobbit wasn't going to be ready in time for December 2012. What that might have meant for Azog or who would have been the main protagonist in film 1 (assuming it wasn't him originally) is of course anyone's guess. ETA: (I rather think Dave's on the right trail here.)

Dave wrote:What gets me though is that it clearly wasn't a late decision to have the 2 warg attacks play out the way they did; they must have just digitally replaced some other orc with Azog (I'm sure an individual line or shot here and there was a pickup). Indications seem to be that Yazneg (the one who got thrown to the wolves) was originally meant to have led the attack at the end (the Lego set of that scene has a Yazneg figure on a white warg). So what was supposed to happen to him after that? Who was the main villain of film 1 in the 2 film script?

I think it would have been enough to play up the "off to slay a dragon" theme for the whole of film one (of a 2 film Hobbit) having Smaug be the baddie by proxy... didn't the Harry Potter peoples pull off a similar feat with Voldemort in HP 7 Part I?

Post by **Holbytla** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:21 am

I would be curious to see a PJ "home movie" adaptation of Tolkien without the studio or audience "demands". I wonder how different the movies would be and how the aforementioned demands would affect his vision for bringing Tolkien to the screen.

I didn't hate the fact that Azog was a character in the movie, but I was disappointed that he was the main bad dude throughout the movie, again and again and he still lived to see another movie. It was just too much. Like an overly long battle scene.

The movie would have survived quite well without him imo, but in any case he should be an ex character at this point.

Post by **Mrs.Underhill** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:32 am

Holbytla wrote:but in any case he should be an ex character at this point.

I bet Thorin would fervently agree.

Post by **Inanna** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:13 am

Holbytla wrote:I would be curious to see a PJ "home movie" adaptation of Tolkien without the studio or audience "demands". I wonder how different the movies would be and how the aforementioned demands would affect his vision for bringing Tolkien to the screen.

I didn't hate the fact that Azog was a character in the movie, but I was disappointed that he was the main bad dude throughout the movie, again and again and he still lived to see another movie. It was just too much. Like an overly long battle scene.

Agreed. When Azog reappears in the last scene... I think I groaned aloud. Not him, not again.

Post by **ArathornJax** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:10 am

Just saw the movie today for the first time. I posted my review on it and the one thing I hate is that PJ seems to feel that in The Hobbit, The Unexpected Journey, there has to be a chase like the Nazgûl had in the Fellowship. Azog was built up far too much and for me it just distracts from the movie and wasn't needed.

As I stated in my review, my hope is that as Beorn goes out and verifies their story, he finds Azog while in Bear form and kills the White Warg (any one put a connection here with the White Whale from a famous literary novel?) and Azog. Then Beorn can put Azog's head on a stake and tack up the skin of the White Warg so that story line can end and be connected to what happen in the book. I can wish, but I doubt it will happen that way.

Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:46 am

I think that would be great, AJ. Really, there is no more need for Azog (as if there ever was one). I just saw it for the second time, and that was really the only thing that I actively disliked.

Post by **Elentári** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:55 am

I just replied to this in the review thread (should have come here first!) and totally agree with AJ's idea. In fact, I would love to have seen this happen in AUJ, as the Eagles are carrying the Company off - it would serve to set up Beorn without revealing too much, and would have finished off this stupid storyline in the first film instead of prolonging the agony!

Post by **Dave_LF** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:21 pm

Azog and his beef with "the line of Durin" have been built up too much for him to be casually offed by a random character, IMO. They're going to need to think of some explanation for how the company loses him in Mirkwood, though (I'm assuming he won't continue to hunt them all the way through the forest).

Personally, I liked Azog as a villain and found him suitably terrifying--much more so than any of the LotR orcs. The fact that he was CGI only adds to the effect, since the uncanny chasm works in your favor with this sort of character. I kind of wish they had just called him Bolg and had him be the main orc antagonist right up until the end. But maybe they are going to have two of them--Azog for the dwarves, and Bolg for the White Council.

Post by **Elentári** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:26 pm

Dave_LF wrote:I kind of wish they had just called him Bolg and had him be the main orc antagonist right up until the end.

That would have been my preferred option, too, with the zombie-Orc they are calling "Bolg" renamed to something else... in fact, I would have stuck with the Nazgûl or even some other kind of "Wights" being the antagonists alongside The Necromancer in Dol Guldur.

Post by **Frelga** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:25 pm

I agree that the only time we should see Azog in TDoS is when his head is on Beorn's spike. Sadly, I highly doubt that PJ would allow anyone but Thorin kill Azog.

I do fear that we are to see the dwarves fighting by the side of the bear-Beorn.

Actually... That could be kinda awesome.

Post by **axordil** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:37 pm

I think it would have been enough to play up the "off to slay a dragon" theme for the whole of film one (of a 2 film Hobbit) having Smaug be the baddie by proxy... didn't the Harry Potter peoples pull off a similar feat with Voldemort in HP 7 Part I?

You can get away with that when you have six movies' worth of momentum and build up. They needed a more proximate bad guy for the opening film.

The sole thing that bugs me is that Azog didn't hightail it when he saw the eagles ripping through his forces. Even his desire for revenge shouldn't overcome his natural cravenness/survival instinct.

I do find the switch in character names/depictions to be...puzzling? I find myself wondering who made that call and when. It was obviously in the last six months of production, otherwise the promo material with the wrong names wouldn't have leaked out in, what was it, early Summer?

Post by **kzer_za** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:56 pm

And it's not like Voldemort is the only bad guy - Harry Potter generally has one or two lesser villains per book, and they usually play a role in the climax (haven't seen the movies though).

With that said, I feel like even Lurtz was a more interesting villain than Azog. Maybe because he didn't overstay his welcome.

I think part of the reason they used Azog was to draw out parts of Thorin's character. This sort of works, but he's still not a compelling character at all.

Post by **Frelga** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:43 am

I already found myself in an unfamiliar position of defending the changes PJ made to the story.

This one I am not wholly thrilled with, but on balance, I did not hate Azog nearly as much as I expected, and I think this is the price we are paying for having the story stretched over three movies.

In the book, much of the challenge to Bilbo comes from the simple routine of traveling. They get cold and wet, they lose supplies, they are tired and uncomfortable. Meet the trolls, rinse, repeat, get to Rivendell, rinse, repeat, get captured by goblins - extended action up till eagles - rinse, repeat, Beorn, rinse, repeat, Mirkwood, rinse, repeat, Wood Elves, and then we are cooking with gas. Do we really want to watch that?

Maybe a brilliant filmmaker could make this fascinating, I don't know. But it's easy to see why PJ felt that a more tangible menace was called for.