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by solicitr
Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:03 pm
Forum: Tol Eressëa
Topic: The Pope's Apology. Does it go far enough?
Replies: 282
Views: 115171

I would suggest that "becoming guilty of abusing young people who were in their care" includes those bishops and others who acted as enablers and accessories. A bishop is supposed to be the 'shepherd of his flock,' and those child victims were in their (unworthy) care.
by solicitr
Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:52 pm
Forum: Tol Eressëa
Topic: The Pope's Apology. Does it go far enough?
Replies: 282
Views: 115171

Ratzinger knew about it and failed Ratzinger was in charge of a department that failed Ratzinger was in charge of a department that didn't know You're overlooking Option 4, the one which applies: Ratzinger headed a department which had nothing to do with it. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the...
by solicitr
Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:37 pm
Forum: Tol Eressëa
Topic: The Pope's Apology. Does it go far enough?
Replies: 282
Views: 115171

The pope also read the pre-1960s mass which calls on Jews to convert... Really? Source? I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I would be *amazed* if the old Tridentine had been trotted out. Far more likely the Mass of 1970 was said in Latin (as it usually is in the Vatican) and some reporter got ...
by solicitr
Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:37 am
Forum: Tol Eressëa
Topic: The Pope's Apology. Does it go far enough?
Replies: 282
Views: 115171

Vison, there is no monolithic world conspiracy, naturally. There are, however, an awful lot of people, among the clergy, the laity, and outside the Church, who have long regarded Josef Ratzinger as the wicked arch-conservative who has prevented the Church from getting with the modern world and rever...
by solicitr
Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:12 am
Forum: Tol Eressëa
Topic: The Pope's Apology. Does it go far enough?
Replies: 282
Views: 115171

And, why? Are these enemies in the church? Disaffected cardinals or something?
Vison, you're a very, very smart lady. It's unbecoming in you to play clueless.
by solicitr
Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:37 pm
Forum: Tol Eressëa
Topic: The Pope's Apology. Does it go far enough?
Replies: 282
Views: 115171

Nonsense, sf. I am discussing a particular case which, the NYT is claiming, implicates the Pope. I am NOT trying to dodge the argument; the subthread is, specifically, about Mo Dowd's column and the charges she made against Josef Ratzinger personally. It is you who are trying to change the subject b...
by solicitr
Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:11 pm
Forum: Tol Eressëa
Topic: The Pope's Apology. Does it go far enough?
Replies: 282
Views: 115171

Do you have an excuse for each and every one of those many cases also? Apples and cinderblocks, to quote somebody or other. Why should I excuse any of the creeps? Why would I? The Murphy case in Wisconsin is one discrete case, which is significant because some people have tried to link Pope Benedic...
by solicitr
Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:04 pm
Forum: Tol Eressëa
Topic: The Pope's Apology. Does it go far enough?
Replies: 282
Views: 115171

excuses for church authorities failing to turn in child molesters. The police investigated Fr Murphy. There was no "turning in" to be done in that case. The Church did, however, of its own accord remove him from all pastoral duties . Which is as much as it could do- there's no Church Jail.
by solicitr
Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:01 pm
Forum: Tol Eressëa
Topic: The Pope's Apology. Does it go far enough?
Replies: 282
Views: 115171

Cerin, that's, to put it politely, not right. This fool Fr Cantalamessa can't observe the distinction that there is a difference, a big one, between holding accountable pedophile priests and the officials and offices which shielded them on the one hand, and on the other the people who really are &qu...
by solicitr
Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:11 pm
Forum: Tol Eressëa
Topic: The Pope's Apology. Does it go far enough?
Replies: 282
Views: 115171

No, Frelga, that was not at all well though out. In fact, it was a total brain-fart and Jews have every right to be offended.

What was he thinking?
by solicitr
Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:07 pm
Forum: Tol Eressëa
Topic: The Pope's Apology. Does it go far enough?
Replies: 282
Views: 115171

We are not talking about something which happened centuries ago but within the lifetime of everyone here. Did these crimes somehow predate the passage of laws saying that an adult can not molest children? Were there not penalties in the law for people who were convicted of such crimes? Anyone who h...
by solicitr
Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:13 pm
Forum: Tol Eressëa
Topic: The Pope's Apology. Does it go far enough?
Replies: 282
Views: 115171

Far from arguing politics, I distinctly said :"This isn't a political thread and that's the end of that."
The conversational equivalent of ringing the doorbell and running away.
by solicitr
Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:11 pm
Forum: Tol Eressëa
Topic: The Pope's Apology. Does it go far enough?
Replies: 282
Views: 115171

Nel: In the Wisconsin case, the civil authorities investigated the claims against Fr Murphy and chose not to pursue them. You're quite right- things were different then. In particular, police (there were rarely ever any CPS workers involved) tended to dismiss claims by children. What's also unmentio...
by solicitr
Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:04 pm
Forum: Tol Eressëa
Topic: The Pope's Apology. Does it go far enough?
Replies: 282
Views: 115171

I don’t know how the various churches can square it up with Jesus. The legalistic wriggling, the lies, the cover-ups, the distortions, the secrecy, putting the institution ahead of the people - what does this have to do with the Gospels? Is anyone doing that? Is ANYONE claiming that lies and cover-...
by solicitr
Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:52 pm
Forum: Tol Eressëa
Topic: The Pope's Apology. Does it go far enough?
Replies: 282
Views: 115171

[deleted]
by solicitr
Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:46 pm
Forum: Tol Eressëa
Topic: The Pope's Apology. Does it go far enough?
Replies: 282
Views: 115171

- Would find it defensible if the atheists handled the sexual abuse cases through their internal procedures, rather than reporting to public authorities. Is anyone arguing that, for any group? Otherwise a good list, but this item's stuffed with straw. - Where atheist leaders of the organization ref...
by solicitr
Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:13 pm
Forum: Tol Eressëa
Topic: The Pope's Apology. Does it go far enough?
Replies: 282
Views: 115171

I find it equally odd, sad, and hard to understand, that his message has been adopted as "conservative". When I read the gospels, Jesus does not "sound" like a "conservative" to me. He sounds far more left-wing than any modern Catholic I know. Then you are really rathe...
by solicitr
Fri Apr 02, 2010 4:57 pm
Forum: Tol Eressëa
Topic: The Pope's Apology. Does it go far enough?
Replies: 282
Views: 115171

Well, said, Nel. It is quite true that nearly all of us a) tend to believe what we want to believe, if we can possibly help it, and b) shore up that stance by shooting the messenger, to avoid giving credence to the message. However, one cannot thereby discount the existence of concerted efforts to d...
by solicitr
Fri Apr 02, 2010 3:57 pm
Forum: Tol Eressëa
Topic: The Pope's Apology. Does it go far enough?
Replies: 282
Views: 115171

but I do think he has set ecumenism back a good 50 years.
How?
by solicitr
Fri Apr 02, 2010 3:42 pm
Forum: Tol Eressëa
Topic: The Pope's Apology. Does it go far enough?
Replies: 282
Views: 115171

Sorry: notwithstanding her education, the adult Dowd describes herself variously as a "lapsed Catholic," "ex-Catholic" and "agnostic." ---------------- OK, Prim, let's put it differently: there is a segment of the Left, which pays attention to Church affairs (including ...