Deadwood: Vulgarity married to education

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Thank you, vison. I've been struggling to find a way to express myself that is not quite so blunt, but that is essentially the case. It is a policy that we determined before we opened, and it is not one that we are going to change. The discussion will inevitably turn to whether to have the words in the word filer, not just what the substitutes are (people are respectful enough here so that no one ever uses the words and so the substitutes never appear anyway). As you know, Alatar, we have been very open to responding to member concerns and adjusting our policies and attitudes accordingly. But this is one area where the policy is set and it is not going to change. As such as extended discussion about it is not going to be productive. I know you disagree with the policy, but I ask that you respect our right to stand by it.

[Edit: Cross-posted with Alatar and Axordil.]

[vison]

I guess you can read it that way if you want. It's not how I see it, that's all. The overuse of the word is puerile, but that doesn't make every user of the word into a puerile person: I use it myself, as I said. Only not here.

ax, there are lots of message boards where you can use every word you want and probably some you're never heard of.

I like it that the Hall of Fire is not one of those message boards. It suits my sensibilities just as it is, as far as language goes.

[Alatar]

Enough said. I'l register my disagreement and disappointment and move on.

[axordil]

ax, there are lots of message boards where you can use every word you want and probably some you're never heard of.

I like it that the Hall of Fire is not one of those message boards. It suits my sensibilities just as it is, as far as language goes.

Generally it suits mine as well. But no one likes feeling as if they are being judged and found wanting, especially on a site where, as Alatar points out, judgmental posting in so many other contexts is frowned upon.

There is no perfect message board for me--I have learned to deal with this, if not entirely accept it. That's part of why I posted that "My family drives me crazy" thread in Bag End. I was thinking not only of my blood family, but of other "families" I have had over the years, including this community. It is of course a commonplace that one must compromise to some extent to fit into a community, even of one's own making. Some of us just have to compromise more regularly than others, because we are evidently not perceived of as being capable of taking offense.

Well, I can be offended. I can be hurt. I may not express that offense or that pain as overtly as some, but that's a matter of style, not substance. I may not be affected by the same kinds of things that others are affected by, but that doesn't make it any less real or less valid.

I just want that to be clearly understood by all concerned. It's not a constant or even frequent issue for me here, and it is more than balanced out by the positives--else why would I remain?--but it's there.

That's all I believe I wish to say on the topic.

[vison]

I can only say that I, personally, find it a tad bizarro that anyone could be "hurt" by a word filter.

We all know the rules. Why would I feel hurt if I break the rule and get the consequence?

I broke a rule about false ID's. I should have read the rules more carefully; if I had read that rule, I would not have broken it. I was not hurt or offended by the consequence.

That's how I see it. I'm in this place voluntarily, as a guest of the owners. I like visiting with Alatar and axordil, both.

eta: judged? Judged about what by whom? Am I being thick here?

[yovargas]

I don't see any reason to use it here. What would it add to our discourse?

I'm not going to argue or fight for anything, but if you ask me, I personally find it very silly that we can have a whole discussing the "F word" but are forbidden to say it anywhere ever.

I can only say that I, personally, find it a tad bizarro that anyone could be "hurt" by a word filter.

No one's being hurt by the word filter, but Alatar pointed out that purile is an unfair judgement. Which, I feel, is the (not so) underlying source of all this talk, the feeling that those who don't use it judge those who do. The choice of 'purile' points to that feeling being more then a little accurate.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm going to attempt to respond in the spirit of "examining the attitude of the word" as Alatar put it, but obviously in the context of comments that have been made so far. I do not believe that using the word in question is childish or puerile in all contexts. As I have stated, I use it myself on occasion. What I think would be puerile would be if people purposefully used it here simply because it is not allowed. The fact of the matter is, that never happens, because the people here are respectful and don't act that way. There is no intention whatsoever of being judgmental of people that use the word regularly in other contexts and/or don't agree with prohibiting its use here. The fact that people that I respect and like so much believe otherwise saddens me greatly, but there really isn't anything that I can do about it, because I can not (and should not) tell other people how they should judge me.

[Athrabeth]

No one's being hurt by the word filter, but Alatar pointed out that purile is an unfair judgement. Which, I feel, is the (not so) underlying source of all this talk, the feeling that those who don't use it judge those who do. The choice of 'purile' points to that feeling being more then a little accurate.

Well, I use that particular word in RL more than just occasionally, along with a vast repertoire of curses learned from a true master......my dad. When I first joined the HoF, and saw that "puerile term" would be substituted by the word filter, I have to admit, I smiled.

I have a pretty good command of the English language.....I can find all kinds of precise, accurate and appropriate ways to express myself. So when I do lapse (with much more frequency than many here would expect) into that kind of language, there's a part of me that really does see this as taking the "easy way out", as choosing to use words that are not really reflective of my "higher skills" in communicating ideas and emotions. The words are basic, simple, generally "explosive" in nature.....and yes, to a degree, they are pretty childish. I can accept this about them, and accept this about myself when I use them. I'm grown up enough to do that, I guess.........which I should be, at my age.

[vison]

Well, I'm older than the sum of the ages of half the people on this board. I never said the word in question out loud until I was a very big girl indeed. No doubt my upbringing back in the Stone Age had a lot to do with that. I never referred to my dinosaur as that f****** dinosaur, for example.

And, yes, I understood that it was "the value judgement implied" in the use of the word "puerile" that might be painful to some; that indeed it has caused some discomfort to some.

I guess my answer to that is, and this is said in the spirit of charity and forebearance and is not meant as it perhaps will read: "So what?"

Those who created this message board put the terms in the filter and designated them as they chose and I think the designations were not only inoffensive but correct and appropriate for this place. That's about all I have to say about that.

[Alatar]

You are of course entitled to your opinion vison. As I am to mine.

[nerdanel]

As an unapologetic swearer IRL...
There are all sorts of judgments made against people every day, based on how or where they were born, based on conditions that they cannot help, or based on perfectly legitimate choices that they have made (for instance, "alternate" religions or spiritualities). These judgments can be devastating in effect. I respectfully submit that the "judgment" against those of us who use the "f word" that is inherent in the word "puerile" seems almost laughably trivial by comparison. I really believe that if this discussion persists, we will all be arraigned for felonious atrocities committed against dead horses.
For me, this is particularly true in light of the fact that one of the founding members of this site has admitted that he uses the word with some frequency when driving.

[Jnyusa]

If we'd had a bit more time to give thought to details like this before opening, we might have chosen filter substitutions with more of a sense of humor ... like, um, the transcripts of the Nixon tapes in which a great deal of the text reads "[obscenity deleted]" or "[profanity deleted]." Then our posters could just type along using whatever language they wished and it would be automatically converted to a form suitable for Senate Hearings.

I do use bad language myself on occasion, every occasion when I find myself driving I-95 in fact, but the puerile term is not the only adjective in my vocabulary and I would not like HoF to attract posters for whom that is the only adjective in their vocabulary. I don't want the site to be suffused with that word nor to see it in thread titles, and we do know that the potential for devolution exists. Modding "judicious use" is simply more work than I want to do - I think I've mentioned that here before - and it is easier and more impartial to filter a word than it is to make continuous judgment as to whether particular posters are over-using it. A filter is neutral. No need to play Big Brother, no chance of committing favoritism.

Jn

[vison]

[Erunáme]

we might have chosen filter substitutions with more of a sense of humor ... like, um, the transcripts of the Nixon tapes in which a great deal of the text reads "[obscenity deleted]" or "[profanity deleted]."

Personally I think something like that would be an excellent substitution. The only time I've tried typing the f-word here is in a personal PM to a person who wouldn't judge me for using it, as I'd forgotten about the word filter. To see the adjective 'puerile' substituted in certainly did irk me. It's needlessly judgemental.

Just to make sure this is straight as I see a lot of misunderstandings going on: I have no problem with the filter. I'm not lobbying to get a certain word unfiltered. The word filter isn't hurting me. I just have a problem with the judgement part of it.

[Faramond]

Fortunately I don't know what "puerile" means, so I don't have to care about any of this.

[anthriel]

I had to look "puerile" up.

I have a feeling that if the founders did substitute "profanity deleted" or "obscenity deleted" for "puerile term deleted", we would have an argument about whether the word was truly a profane or obscene word, with several people arguing that it's not (with some very good arguments!).

The real crux of the matter is that many of us (including me!) don't like to be edited, or restricted somehow, in writing whatever WE think is reasonable. A lot of this is pride, I think (at least for ME!); I feel like I am a bona fide grown-up, thank you very much, with some discernment about what is appropriate, and what is not. I would like people to trust me, I guess, and respect my choices. And when something that I would write would be "filtered", the feeling of being judged as uncouth, or juvenile, somehow, would rankle.

In other words, I'm taking this personally.

BUT.

While the vast majority of our posters would use the word (and when I say "the word", y'all know which one I mean, because I truly believe the filter is not needed for the other two. If someone were to use one of those other terms on this board, especially the racist one, in a racist way, they would be drawn and quartered by the other posters, and pounded to within an inch of their lives. There's not a doubt in my mind) in a reasonable way, only when needed for the "flavor" or "spice" that only it can impart, there would be a few... there always are... who would use that freedom as a springboard for peppering their every post with profanity.

And then: something would be lost.

I LOVE the writing here. I love to read what you are all thinking, and am regularly gobsmacked with the depth of your understanding of your own feelings, and how clearly you can share your thoughts. (Especially you, Ath! You ARE my hero... )

I understand the need for the filter, then, because some of this is just a slippery slope issue; to devolve from the level of discourse that I so love into a spam and profanity fest is just not interesting to me. When the "spice" of the language becomes the only offered entree, I get bored with that. For some it is wonderful fun! But for me, it is boring, and crowds out stuff I want to read.

THESE CONCERNS DO NOT APPLY TO MOST OF YOU READING THIS, OF COURSE. Please don't take this personally, as I know I tend to do! I truly do respect you all, and enjoy reading whatever you write, wherever I see it, even if it has a spice or two. I don't mind the spice. I think it adds something, actually, if left a spice.


But, as is often true, the majority have to feel chafed by restraints not meant to contain them.

'Tis a vexing thing.

[yovargas]

Again, I'm not arguing for any change, just examining the viewpoints. And, I'm sorry, buy I don't buy that slippery slope argument in the least. We're allowed "shit" and "bitch" (IMO, vastly more potentially offensive then F) here and yet how many times have you seen those words here? You could probably count them on one hand.

[Primula Baggins]

It's a matter of varying perspectives, yov, as this thread has discussed at great length. Anthy has the right of it: the vast majority of people here don't need that filter and would use that word, on this board, rarely if at all; even if they use it elsewhere, they know it doesn't "fit" here.

But some people would use it, perhaps even a lot. And for others here, even one use of that word is distressing. So the word is filtered.

Blatant overuse (or use to insult) of any of those other words would also be a problem under our laws & customs, but as you point out yourself, it hasn't come up.

[Jnyusa]

Anth, you summed up my thinking about this perfectly. If I had to stand on the slope throwing sawdust on the slippery part, I wouldn't have nearly as much fun here.

You're right about those other two words, too. They're only in the filter in case we get a troll from nether regions of the internet.

Yov, I'm pretty convinced that the reason we don't see other cursing words used here very often is because that one representive word is filtered. It works kind of like a speed limit sign, you know?

And, you know guys, really and truly, leaving it up to self-restraint just doesn't work. Both HoF and B77 started out on free boards, and profanity was always against the TOS on the free boards, but phpbber ended up filtering more words than anyone else because so many of their clients were in violation. We all like to *think* that we're mature and self-restrained, but ... it just ain't so. If there were no speed limit signs on the highway and speed were left up to everyone's judgment about safety, do you really think everyone would drive reasonably? I know what it's like even with speed limits when there aren't enough troopers to enforce them. But you know what? - those speed bumps coming up on the toll booth? - they work like a charm.

.... reminds me of a sort-of-funny story ... In Managua the streets used to be paved with dovetailed bricks. During the revolution, the guerrillas would take a crowbar and upend a row of bricks across the road so that military vehicles wouldn't be able to get through. They called the row of upended bricks "sleeping guerrillas."

Our word filter is kind of like a sleeping guerrilla.

Jn

edt: belated recognition of typo

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Again, I'm not arguing for any change, just examining the viewpoints. And, I'm sorry, buy I don't buy that slippery slope argument in the least. We're allowed "shit" and "bitch" (IMO, vastly more potentially offensive then F) here and yet how many times have you seen those words here? You could probably count them on one hand.

I don't disagree, Yov, that those words are potentially at least as offensive as the one in the word filter. However, it was our observation that the word that we included in the filter tends to be used far, far more frequently then the others, and much more casually. As Jn has already explained (not just here in this thread but in the past as well) we included it in the word filter because we did not want to get into having to determine when to edit it and when not to. Is it possible that it would not have been used any more frequently then the other words that you mention? Of course. Is it possible that it would have? Who knows? It was not a chance that we were willing to take, for exactly the reasons that Anthy describes so well (you and Ath are BOTH my heros, Anthy )

[Edit: Cross-posted with Jn (another one of my heros )]