It looks as if all my previous video links have stopped working? (or is it only for me)
So, here's a new one to add to the thread.
The Art of Rhetoric, Debate, Logical Fallacies, etc
- elengil
- Cat-egorical Herbitual Creativi-Tea
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Re: The Art of Rhetoric, Debate, Logical Fallacies, etc
The dumbest thing I've ever bought
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
was a 2020 planner.
"Does anyone ever think about Denethor, the guy driven to madness by staying up late into the night alone in the dark staring at a flickering device he believed revealed unvarnished truth about the outside word, but which in fact showed mostly manipulated media created by a hostile power committed to portraying nothing but bad news framed in the worst possible way in order to sap hope, courage, and the will to go on? Seems like he's someone we should think about." - Dave_LF
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Re: The Art of Rhetoric, Debate, Logical Fallacies, etc
I have never encountered Markham Nolan before. Does he provide instructions on how to identify disinformation, misinformation and falsehoods broadcast/published by established media organisations? Does he explore why compromised legacy media should be avoided in favour of irreverent, unbeholden new media, and how we should wean ourselves off state propaganda?
To understand how the establishment media manipulates its viewers, who better than Chomsky?
To understand how the establishment media manipulates its viewers, who better than Chomsky?
In a society built on deceit, telling truth is a seditious act
Re: The Art of Rhetoric, Debate, Logical Fallacies, etc
I don't know if this fits perfectly here, but hopefully it doesn't NOT fit.
I have recently formalized my opinion on discussions of every kind as "the big picture is simple, the details are complicated." A productive discussion should pay a balanced amount of attention to both, but the big picture should never be completely ignored.
Corollary - it's a red flag when someone enters a discussion and focuses entirely on minor details, the semantics, the hypotheticals. In my experience it means at best that that they do not understand the subject well enough to grasp the big picture, and at worst, that they are not participating in good faith.
I have recently formalized my opinion on discussions of every kind as "the big picture is simple, the details are complicated." A productive discussion should pay a balanced amount of attention to both, but the big picture should never be completely ignored.
Corollary - it's a red flag when someone enters a discussion and focuses entirely on minor details, the semantics, the hypotheticals. In my experience it means at best that that they do not understand the subject well enough to grasp the big picture, and at worst, that they are not participating in good faith.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Re: The Art of Rhetoric, Debate, Logical Fallacies, etc
Doesn’t the reverse also hold true? I feel
like that about anecdotal, personal examples. they can pack detail, they enable story-telling, but without the big picture you can create a false narrative.
like that about anecdotal, personal examples. they can pack detail, they enable story-telling, but without the big picture you can create a false narrative.
'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude
Re: The Art of Rhetoric, Debate, Logical Fallacies, etc
That's not a reverse, that's case in point.Inanna wrote:Doesn’t the reverse also hold true? I feel
like that about anecdotal, personal examples. they can pack detail, they enable story-telling, but without the big picture you can create a false narrative.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Re: The Art of Rhetoric, Debate, Logical Fallacies, etc
argh. I had meant to write an example for the reverse. I think.
'You just said "your getting shorter": you've obviously been drinking too much ent-draught and not enough Prim's.' - Jude
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Re: The Art of Rhetoric, Debate, Logical Fallacies, etc
This cannot be overstated. Focusing on the minutiae to divert from the bigger picture is a fundamental obscurantist tactic.Frelga wrote: ↑Sat May 08, 2021 10:21 pm Corollary - it's a red flag when someone enters a discussion and focuses entirely on minor details, the semantics, the hypotheticals. In my experience it means at best that that they do not understand the subject well enough to grasp the big picture, and at worst, that they are not participating in good faith.
And the most successful.
In a society built on deceit, telling truth is a seditious act
Re: The Art of Rhetoric, Debate, Logical Fallacies, etc
Sure, we can't ignore the complexity of the detail.
For example - the big picture when it comes to discussing Middle-earth is that it is a work of fiction created by one man whose ideas evolved over time, and as such some questions don't have definitive answers or have contradictory answers.
There is a lot of delightful discussion to be had about the details of the fictional world, even from an entirely in-story perspective. But forgetting the big picture entirely just leads to a lot of pointless shouting.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
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- Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:13 pm
Re: The Art of Rhetoric, Debate, Logical Fallacies, etc
Ah, but that "big picture" isn't necessarily THE "big picture". Tolkien's cosmogenesis borrowed from the Kalevala, Prose Edda etc.
In a society built on deceit, telling truth is a seditious act
- Voronwë the Faithful
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Re: The Art of Rhetoric, Debate, Logical Fallacies, etc
My friend N.E.B. pointed this link out to me, and I thought it might be worth sharing here.
The Differences Between Dialogue and Debate.
The Differences Between Dialogue and Debate.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."