Global Warming

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Which is most correct?

The earth is not, on the whole, warming
1
3%
The earth is warming, but the causes are natural
5
14%
The earth is warming due to human activity
29
83%
 
Total votes: 35

Jnyusa
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Post by Jnyusa »

I'd like to comment on this, Voronwë, because he's addressing my field specifically. He makes a HUGE error in how an economist would approach the issue of funding solutions.

And I'd also like to comment on the article in Lord. M.'s last link, and Griffy's approach to solutions. But Today was one of those days where a parade of Hospice people came through and I'm struggling to find time for a bath much less a posting spree. :P

(Aren't you all glad you can't smell me?) :foryou:

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Post by axordil »

Jonah Goldberg knows about as much about anything as a rat's patootie--he's a pundit, not a useful human being. But the fundamental flaw in his reasoning as I see it is that while it may indeed be possible to solve the whole thing quickly and easily if technology advances apace, technology advancing apace is itself based upon a model whereby the next hundred years looks like the last, as opposed to, say, the centuries comprising the collapse of the Roman Empire or the Han Dynasty.
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

All in good time, Jn. :hug:

The one thing that I agree with Goldberg about is the likelihood that there will be the political will to make the hard decisions necessary to significantly reduce greenhouse emissions. My own cynical view is that the only solution to the problem is going to be that it will fix itself - global warming will eventually cause such catastrophic impact on the human species that there will no longer be the demand for carbon emitters. :(
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Post by axordil »

V-man--

That's a more direct way of saying what I was circumlocating...that a sudden collapse is just as likely, whether directly because of the effects of climate change or in parallel. There's not enough fossil fuel on the planet for the Chinese and Indians to live at a European, much less American standard of living through conventional, 20th century means...but that's where they're looking to go.

An acquaintance who works for the Evil Beer Company in my town once noted as an aside that if China started drinking beer at the rate we do, all the hops in the world would be gone in six months. That's not the only commodity that is going to be under extreme pressure as they and India gear up for a go at modernity.
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Post by Túrin Turambar »

I have to admit, while reading about this subject I’ve found a lot of interesting things. I’ve developed a new interest in paleoclimatology.

One of the most interesting things I ran into was the Snowball Earth Hypothesis. Basically, it states that the earth has, at least three times in its history, been nearly completely frozen over (most recently in the late Precambrian from 750 to 580 million years ago). Wiki is somewhat critical, but it is definite that the earth was much colder then than it is now. The mechanism through which it works is interesting, and relates heavily to behaviour of greenhouse gasses. Also interesting is the relationship between continental drift and climate.

Not entirely relevant to the question, but fascinating nonetheless.
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Post by Aravar »

axordil wrote:An acquaintance who works for the Evil Beer Company in my town once noted as an aside that if China started drinking beer at the rate we do, all the hops in the world would be gone in six months. That's not the only commodity that is going to be under extreme pressure as they and India gear up for a go at modernity.
Hops are a vital strategic resource, unlike oil. Her Majesty's Governement should take all measure necessary to secure Britain's supply.
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Post by Jnyusa »

Not to mention chocolate! :D

Let me see if I can tackle the Goldberg article quickly.
You get it already. But let me just add that in the great scheme of trade-offs in the history of humanity, never has there been a better one than trading a tiny amount of global warming for a massive amount of global prosperity.


"Tiny" is a relative term. It is relative to the climatic niche in which humans must conduct their activity. If the change is large enough to affect our survival potential, then it is large no matter what its absolute magnitude might be. We can only assess whether 1 degree Celsius is big or small when we know what the impact of this will be on agriculture, health, etc.
The Earth got about 0.7 degrees Celsius warmer in the 20th century while it increased its GDP by 1,800%, by one estimate. How much of that 0.7 degrees can be laid at the feet of that 1,800% is unknowable, but let's stipulate that all of the warming was the result of our prosperity and that this warming is in fact indisputably bad (which is hardly obvious). That's still an amazing bargain
This correlation is spurious, like the correlation between the number of divorces and the number of telephone poles in the state of California.

GDP increases as population increases and all other activities increase along with it. Monetary authorities print money to facilitate the exchange of goods resulting from those activities and this is what determines the absolute magnitude of GDP. Fossil fuel use has increased for the same reason - more people. Growth and technology choice are independent issues. If all development had come from hydroelectric instead of fossil fuel, would growth have been any lower? If we had used nothing but fossil fuel, would growth have been higher?

Furthermore, global GDP is a useless measure for considering the benefits of fossil fuel. Global GDP can rise while median living standards are falling, depending on how wealth and income are distributed. There are more people living in comfort today than ever before. There are more people living in poverty today than ever before. There are simply more people than ever before. It is ludicrous to attribute the wealth to fossil fuel and not the poverty, or to suggest that similar population growth using sustainable technologies would necessarily have given us a different result.
Life spans in the United States nearly doubled (from 44 to 77 years). Literacy, medicine, leisure and even, in many respects, the environment have improved mightily over the course of the 20th century, at least in the prosperous West.
Goldberg has conflated growth with redistribution of income, where redistribution is something that governments do by means of taxes and spending. Where medicine is concerned he has also looked at an irrelevant time frame.

If the government spends buckets of money keeping people alive longer, as it has done, then people will live longer. But something else is sacrificed for this - the benefits that would have come from some alternate expenditure - and if we had made those same expenditure choices while using solar power or nuclear or hydroelectric or wind instead of fossil fuel, what indication is there that the results would have been different?

The big increase in life expectation, however, comes from the declines in infant and childhood mortality that resulted from advances in medicine. The stimulus-response mechanism between us and the microbial world constitutes a long-cycle that has to be watched for more than one generation to know what its effects will be, but more important to the argument at hand, none of the efforts or consequences involved here are dependent upon the use of fossil fuels. Would people be dying younger if we had spent our government subsidies to develop solar power instead of using them for oil exploration?
Given the option of getting another 1,800% richer in exchange for another 0.7 degrees Celsius warmer, I'd take the heat in a heartbeat. Of course, warming might get more expensive for us. (And we might do a lot better than 1,800% too.) There are tipping points in every sphere of life, and what cost us little in the 20th century could cost us enormously in the 21st — at least that's what we're told. And boy, are we told. Al Gore has a new incarnation as the host of an apocalyptic infomercial on the subject, complete with fancy renderings of New York City underwater.
Besides the fact that closing with a dig at Al Gore is purely rhetorical, we don't have to speculate about tipping points to do the cost-benefit analysis for this issue. Damage will not progress if new emission output is equal to the sequestration capability of the planet. Ambient emissions will continue to cause damage, but we invest in the elimination of damage by substituting the cost of abatement for the cost of health consequences. Once again, this is a redistribution issue and has nothing to do with economic growth. Instead of employing doctors and nurses to care for people with emphysema, we employ engineers and physicists to study causal mechanisms and develop more efficient scrubbers.
Their proposed remedies cost so much money — bidding starts at 1% of global GDP a year and rises quickly — they have to ratchet up the fear factor just to get the conversation started.
Again, this is a redistribution question, not a growth question. The 1% of global GDP recommended comes from estimates of damage cost. An economist will always tell you that you can afford to spend on abatement whatever you are spending on damage.
Even if the Kyoto Protocol were put into effect tomorrow — a total impossibility — we'd barely affect global warming.
Goldberg has conflated new emissions with ambient emissions. Kyoto Protocols will not reduce ambient emissions. They only slow the rate of increase in ambient emissions. 100 Kyotos would not make a dent in global warming. It's only a starting point.

The formula that has to be achieved is really quite simple. First, we need to reduce new emissions and increase sequestration so that they are equal. This is accomplished by means of changing technologies, and that is what Kyoto hoped to accomplish. The development and deployment of new technologies creates growth and employment; it does not reduce economic possibility but re-allocates our resources. Second, we have to tally the damage cost of ambient emission and reallocate resources to abatement so as to equalize these costs at the margin. Again, there is no reason why the employment generated by this effort would fall short of the employment generated by using fossil fuels.
The history of capitalism and technology tells us that what starts out expensive and arduous becomes cheap and easy over time.
Exactly. This is exactly what will happen with earth-friendly technologies.

Similar conflation of separate issues plagues Junk Science site, but I'll have to address that later today or tomorrow.

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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

:)
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Post by Jnyusa »

OK, here's a go at the Junk Science site ... hopefully Mom will sleep long enough for me to finish.

Just going through his summary points at the end of the article:
The temperature effect of atmospheric carbon dioxide is logarithmic, not exponential.
It is logarithmic in the absence of human interference. That's because as temperatures warm and temperate and tropical zones expand, earth's biomass and sequestration potential increases. But when humans undertake to both increase carbon emissions and deforest, we don't know whether the relationship will continue to be logarithmic. All indications are that it will not.
The potential planetary warming from a doubling of atmospheric carbon dioxide from pre-Industrial Revolution levels of ~280ppmv to 560ppmv (possible some time later this century - perhaps) is generally estimated at less than 1 °C.
As I mentioned in my earlier post, our only criterion for judging whether this is a big change or a little change is its impact on human potential. We may have already doomed ourselves to extinction with this little itty-bitty change. We don't know yet.
The guesses of significantly larger warming are dependent on "feedback" (supplementary) mechanisms programmed into climate models. The existence of these "feedback" mechanisms is uncertain and the cumulative sign of which is unknown (they may add to warming from increased atmospheric carbon dioxide or, equally likely, might suppress it).
Science Lesson #1: Don't confuse the model with the phenomenon.

All models contain uncertainty and no model contains all the factors found in reality. The name of the game is to identify those factors that have statistically significant influence and then look at outcomes when the state of those factors is varied. Climate models do yield contradictory results, depending on how you set the parameters. It is the preponderance of models yielding the same result that leads us to believe that a particular outcome is more probable than any other.
The total warming since measurements have been attempted is thought to be about 0.6 degrees Centigrade. At least half of the estimated temperature increment occurred before 1950, prior to significant change in atmospheric carbon dioxide levels.
Pre-1950 is not prior to significant change in atmospheric carbon dioxide levels. What has happened is that carbon dioxide levels have increased exponentially, so if you eyeball the curve, things look much, much better the earlier you look. But it is quite possible that the change in CO2 was already 'significant' much earlier than 1950 ... one theory suggests that it was already becoming 'significant' 8000 years ago ... if by significant we mean likely to impact long-range human potential.

As far as the "half" is concerned, the news is exactly the opposite of what the author here implies. Measures started to be taken around 1880. So the first half of our measured temperature increase was spread over 70 years and the second half of our measured temperature increase was spread over 50 years. Temp change is increasing at an increasing rate, in other words, just like CO2 measures.
Assuming the unlikely case that all the natural drivers of planetary temperature change ceased to operate at the time of measured atmospheric change then a 30% increment in atmospheric carbon dioxide caused about one-third of one degree temperature increment since and thus provides empirical support for less than one degree increment due to a doubling of atmospheric carbon dioxide.
But this resolution in quantifying the causal relationship is exactly what we have been unable to achieve at a statistically significant level of confidence. Industry 'experts' would be the first to pooh-pooh a statement like this, because we really don't know what these correlational coefficients are. All we can say at this point is that we have a culprit on which to pin causality, and the secular trends are moving in the same direction.
There is no linear relationship between atmospheric carbon dioxide change and global mean temperature or global mean temperature trend -- global mean temperature has both risen and fallen during the period atmospheric carbon dioxide has been rising.
He confuses annual data with the secular trend. Annual data fluctuates. The secular trend suggests a strong relationship between atmospheric CO2 and global mean temperature
The natural world has tolerated greater than one-degree fluctuations in mean temperature during the relatively recent past and thus current changes are within the range of natural variation. (See, for example, ice core and sea surface temperature reconstructions.)
Yes, but humans have not tolerated change at this pace ever in their history! It is human potential we are concerned about. What the heck do I care how cold or hot a darned rock will be if you plant it in a glacier or throw it in a volcano? We had thousands of years to adjust to the last ice age, and we really don't know what adaptations were thrust upon us during that time. Civilization as we know it emerged under certain circumstances, and if we drastically change those circumstances we can't predict how well or how quickly our civilization will adapt.

It's not about air, it's about us.
Despite attempts to label atmospheric carbon dioxide a "pollutant" it is, in fact, an essential trace gas, the increasing abundance of which is a bonus for the bulk of the biosphere.
The most corrosive element in our atmosphere is oxygen. It is one of those miracles of nature that organisms evolved which could burn oxygen as fuel instead of being incinerated by it.

Therefore what?

Whether or not CO2 is a trace element and used as fuel by plants is irrelevant to the question at hand. The question of interest to us as humans who do not use CO2 as fuel is: how much CO2 can we add to the atmosphere before it causes changes that are unfavorable to human potential?
There is no reason to believe that slightly lower temperatures are somehow preferable to slightly higher temperatures - there is no known "optimal" nor any known means of knowingly and predictably adjusting some sort of planetary thermostat.
No, but there is range, outside of which ecosystems will begin to adapt in ways that may be very unfavorable to humans.

A cockroach can survive ground zero of a nuclear blast and walk away laughing, but it is too late for us to evolve into cockroaches because we are already humans.
Fluctuations in atmospheric carbon dioxide are of little relevance in the short to medium term (although should levels fall too low it could prove problematic in the longer-term).
Again, he conflated annual fluctuations with the secular trend.

And he peppers his summary with statements to the effect that 'these are not the droids you're looking for':
Other anthropogenic effects are vastly more important, at least on local and regional scales ... Fixation on atmospheric carbon dioxide is a distraction from these more important anthropogenic effects ... Activists and zealots constantly shrilling over atmospheric carbon dioxide are misdirecting attention and effort from real and potentially addressable local, regional and planetary problems.
Yes, we should all devote ourselves to solving homelessness and leave those poor oil companies alone.

The fact is, all environomental problems are intertwined because the planet is one big organism.

Lord M., you said a couple other things in your post that I wanted to comment on:
I’m starting to suspect that humans have caused more climate change through deforestation than pollution.
I too consider deforestation a more immediate threat. But the short-term impact of deforestation is on microclimates, not global climate. At the rate we are deforesting, this also impacts planetary sequestration potential, and I am inclined to say that the impact is significant, but without looking at the actual numbers, my guess is that even if there had been no deforestation over the past 100 years there would still be a net increase in ambient emissions because of pollution. Both sides of the carbon cycle have to be addressed for us to make headway.
Finally, what I really need is a clear indication that the earth is now warming significantly faster than usual.
You know, I had to look up myself how they measure temperature historically ... I know they get atmospheric carbon from ice core samples. Apparently temperature measures are geologic - from sediment and sea core samples and from the distribution and depth of various types of rocks and fossils. These are models, of course ... just as the evolutionary tree is a model, because we don't have perfect data sets going back hundreds of thousands of years. But there is an established methodology for extrapolating into the past, much of it creditable to Darwin. I have yet to see a model whose secular trend contradicted the thumbnail sketch that my colleagues gave to me twenty years ago:

Over the past 400,000 years, we have seen fluctuation between glacial and interglacial periods ... these are short cycles, actually, in geologic time. Each cycle, from peak to peak, lasts about 100,000 years. The difference in mean global temperature between the coldest part of the cycle and the hottest is about 3 degrees centigrade. So an increase of 1 degree centigrade represents approximately 17,000 years along a secular trend. That is the temperature increase we've seen since in the past 250 years since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution.

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Post by Inanna »

WOW. A glance at a thread and you know Jn is BACK!! :hug:
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Post by Jnyusa »

:D

And last but NOT LEAST while I have a moment .... The Griffster.
What I do know is that the planet's weather systems are more likely to be able to self-correct from a volcanic outburst than from man-made pollution, so I believe we should do what we can about the mess we create ourselves, and let the weather patterns govern themselves. Take our little spanner out of the works instead of starting to tinker too much in there.
I heartily agree with this. It is much easier and cheaper to change a technology that we've invented than it is to redesign the whole planet in the hopes that it will conform to our whim.
I therefore still operate by looking carefully at what I use, on the whole, and I'm glad that I was taught this way of life and find it second nature. I do not really see a reason while society as a whole cannot make this cultural shift and start becoming less wasteful.
That was an interesting comparison, Griff. I've got a friend here whose son is the same age as my elder daughter, and we were talking one day about the attitude of our children toward waste. I do think this is a generational thing, but they perceive waste as evidence of wealth. It makes them feel secure to be able to afford to toss things away.

In my grandparents' generation, who were adults during the Depression, the attitude if of course the opposite. Wealth comes from avoiding waste. My parents were not wastrel, but they were not prudent either; whereas I wash out my Baggies and reuse them so that I won't need more than one box in two years or so. (I hate plastic, but there are some things, like preserving food, for which nothing else does quite the same job. Plastic is one thing I feel very strongly should be rationed. It's the most environmentally expensive product we have.)

I think that Faramond is right that the underlying problem and the ultimate solution is a change of attitude; and I also think that the country is ripe for leadership that can make this clear. But I don't see anyone in the halls of power espousing these priorities. (Al Gore is the poster child for Phony, imo.) So I don't know where the "idea" will come from that will make people understand. My gut tells me that Voronwë is right, and we will not succeed to avoid some very hard times.

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Post by Túrin Turambar »

Jnyusa wrote:
Finally, what I really need is a clear indication that the earth is now warming significantly faster than usual.
You know, I had to look up myself how they measure temperature historically ... I know they get atmospheric carbon from ice core samples. Apparently temperature measures are geologic - from sediment and sea core samples and from the distribution and depth of various types of rocks and fossils. These are models, of course ... just as the evolutionary tree is a model, because we don't have perfect data sets going back hundreds of thousands of years. But there is an established methodology for extrapolating into the past, much of it creditable to Darwin. I have yet to see a model whose secular trend contradicted the thumbnail sketch that my colleagues gave to me twenty years ago:

Over the past 400,000 years, we have seen fluctuation between glacial and interglacial periods ... these are short cycles, actually, in geologic time. Each cycle, from peak to peak, lasts about 100,000 years. The difference in mean global temperature between the coldest part of the cycle and the hottest is about 3 degrees centigrade. So an increase of 1 degree centigrade represents approximately 17,000 years along a secular trend. That is the temperature increase we've seen since in the past 250 years since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution.
IIRC, the point we should be measuring from is the maximum extent of the ice sheets in the last glacial period (ie: Ice Age) some 11,000 years ago. Still, an increase of 1 degree in 250 years doesn’t match up with an increase of 1 degree over a minimum of over 3,500 years.

Assuming the above figures are correct, I’m more or less there with anthropocentric global warming.

From reading, I know that:

1) Changes in the earth’s overall temperature show a casual link with the amount of greenhouse gas in the air. Hot periods (such as the late Permian) have the highest concentrations of carbon dioxide.

2) Carbon dioxide has risen from 280 to 380 ppm in the past century or so, and there is no natural explanation for that increase.

3) Therefore, human activity stands to warm the climate.

4) This matches with an observed trend of rapid warming in the past 250 years – much more rapid than is natural.

True?
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Post by Inanna »

I've got a friend here whose son is the same age as my elder daughter, and we were talking one day about the attitude of our children toward waste. I do think this is a generational thing, but they perceive waste as evidence of wealth. It makes them feel secure to be able to afford to toss things away.
I think it is also a cultural thing - I find it amazing how difficult it is for me to buy Pen Refills here.... the done thing seems to be is to use a pen and throw it away. I find that horribly wasteful. Another thing which shocks me in US is running hot water.... 24 hrs, even in summer!! Why? I much prefer the Indian method of switching on the "geyser" 15 mins before you need the hot water. Can you imagine the amount of energy being put in to maintain the water at that temp all the time???
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Post by Jnyusa »

Lord M wrote:IIRC, the point we should be measuring from is the maximum extent of the ice sheets in the last glacial period (ie: Ice Age) some 11,000 years ago. Still, an increase of 1 degree in 250 years doesn’t match up with an increase of 1 degree over a minimum of over 3,500 years.
Yes, that's right. But we would expect it to take ~50,000 years to get from that point 11,000 years ago to the maximimum temperature in the cycle. So in essence we've arrived at where we are now approximately 17,000 years earlier than we should have. And the big increase has come since the industrial revolution, which points a finger at carbon emissions.

Your four points do summarize the issue according to my understanding of it.
Mahima wrote:Can you imagine the amount of energy being put in to maintain the water at that temp all the time???
Yes, it's enormously wasteful, and personally expensive. Everywhere I've lived or travelled they've had those little heaters that ionize the water just before you need to use it. For the life of me I don't know why we don't use them in the US. Or why developing countries are not going full guns with solar power for development. It's absolutely crazy for them to be buying imported oil when they have 8-12 hours of direct sunlight every day of the year. Brazil could be a net exporter of energy to the US if they would develop that resource ... location, location, location!

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Post by vison »

Well, you know, at this time, here where I live, a hot water tank that's always full of hot water costs much, much less than a hot water heater that only heats water when you need it. That kind of heater is commonly installed ONLY in very high-end houses.

Stupid? Yes, it's stupid. But the $400 right now for the gas-fired 45 gallon tank is much easier to come by than the $4,000 for the "instant hot water" system. Even though within a year or two you've saved enough in fuel to pay for it!

There have to be many, many changes in the way we do things. We all have to learn to think LONG TERM.

And that, for a species like us, seems to be a horribly difficult thing. Why? :scratch: We're the only species that can imagine 400 years into the future. Then we stop. We imagine, all right, but then we go right back to using a new baggie every day for our kids' school lunches, and buying an SUV that gets 12 mpg . . . .
Dig deeper.
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Post by Jnyusa »

vison wrote:But the $400 right now for the gas-fired 45 gallon tank is much easier to come by than the $4,000 for the "instant hot water" system.
There should be government grants, or zero to low interest loans, for installing less wasteful technologies. It's done state by state in the US for solar power on a very limited basis. That's why I say these are allocation decisions.

Current experience brings this example to the forefront of my mind ... mid-1970s the government decided that it was going to subsidize the elderly in a major way, and look at all the industries that have sprung into being once the slush fund was unveiled. One of the reason 'believers' in global warming get so miffed and climb up on such high horses is because it is too, too obvious that our government is in the pocket of the oil companies and even reasonable strategies have long been rejected in favor of campaign funds.

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Post by Rowanberry »

From my POV, I don't see the running hot water as waste of energy - here, houses have to be heated anyway, and the hot water comes as a by-product. Also, in the cities, distant heating is nowadays the norm, rather than every single house having their own heating system. In the country, the situation is different, of course.

But, what I've always seen as a wasteful system is, direct electric heating; it's easy, and requires only a small initial investment, and it was very popular in single-family houses at a time. But, I just don't see any sense in turning highly refined energy like electricity directly to heat. There are heat reserving systems available, and they're much more economical (and ecological) in the long run; what the environmentalists here most campaign for is the use of geothermal energy for heating.

And, if the Americans had to pay for their gas as much as in most European countries, I believe they'd quickly start changing their gasoline greedy SUV:s to cars with a smaller consumption.
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Post by Jnyusa »

Rowanberry wrote: ... here, houses have to be heated anyway, and the hot water comes as a by-product.
Do you mean that the hot water is maintained at room temperature? Our hot water tanks are heated separately, and the water is kept at steaming heat all the time, even when you're not using it.
Also, in the cities, distant heating is nowadays the norm, rather than every single house having their own heating system.
I'm not familiar with this system, Rowan. Could you describe how the heating systems work in Finland?
And, if the Americans had to pay for their gas as much as in most European countries, I believe they'd quickly start changing their gasoline greedy SUV:s to cars with a smaller consumption.
True!

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Post by Angbasdil »

Brazil could be a net exporter of energy to the US if they would develop that resource ... location, location, location!
Actually, Brazil is completely energy independant. They get most of their energy from sugar cane ethanol.
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Post by Jnyusa »

Ang wrote:Actually, Brazil is completely energy independant. They get most of their energy from sugar cane ethanol.
Ack! Yes, and a lesson in why ethanol should not be our solution of first choice. Millions of acres were converted from basic food goods to sugar cane and this has been devastating to Brazilian agriculture. It's really an interesting study for economists, because the country adopted a classic import subsitution strategy - something we would typically recommend for a country with crushing external debt - but the consequence was analogous to something equally dire which first world economists are very slow to recognize - the 'banana republic' phenomenon where the GDP increase from exports does not cover the opportunity cost in basic foods. In this case Brazil did not convert to an export commodity but the net effect was the same.

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