That's true, but perhaps not exactly in the way you mean it. However, it will serve for now.Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:While that is true (and at the risk of sounding like Rev. Wright), if the U.S. (and allies) had not made some of the choices that were made over the years, the circumstances that allowed Bin Laden to become relevant would never have occurred.
Osama bin Laden
Dig deeper.
I remember being woken up on 9/11 to a voice that said, "We are under attack!", from someone that wouldn't have woken me if it were not crucial. I was working on the third shift, 10 or 11 pm start (can't remember), and turning on the TV after having been un-characteristically woken.
The first thought that ran through my mind was, "what did we do or not do that pissed off these people soooo much???". That is coming from one of those US soldiers that are being so talked about.
I am not sure I have ever answered that question. I am not sure that I ever could. What does it take to be so insanely irate that you could assassinate thousands of people and give your life for a cause?
I am firmly in the belief that I would fight to the death if I believed in the cause, or if we were under siege. I doubt that I would have much choice in surrendering my life for what I thought was freedom, or repression of evil invaders, but I would certainly question giving my life to massacre thousands of innocent humans for a cause however apparently just.
I think that is the intrinsic difference between Al-Qaeda and other religious fanatics of the same ilk and humans willing to give their lives for a just cause is the ability to determine sanity from insanity. Just imo as always.
It is all perspective really, but most people don't want to kill thousands of civilians to prove a point. Regardless of their moral convictions.
The first thought that ran through my mind was, "what did we do or not do that pissed off these people soooo much???". That is coming from one of those US soldiers that are being so talked about.
I am not sure I have ever answered that question. I am not sure that I ever could. What does it take to be so insanely irate that you could assassinate thousands of people and give your life for a cause?
I am firmly in the belief that I would fight to the death if I believed in the cause, or if we were under siege. I doubt that I would have much choice in surrendering my life for what I thought was freedom, or repression of evil invaders, but I would certainly question giving my life to massacre thousands of innocent humans for a cause however apparently just.
I think that is the intrinsic difference between Al-Qaeda and other religious fanatics of the same ilk and humans willing to give their lives for a just cause is the ability to determine sanity from insanity. Just imo as always.
It is all perspective really, but most people don't want to kill thousands of civilians to prove a point. Regardless of their moral convictions.
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Voronwë the Faithful
- At the intersection of here and now
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How do you think I mean it? And how do you think I should have meant it? (I realize that my post was pretty vague, but now I'm curious to hear what you think.)vison wrote:That's true, but perhaps not exactly in the way you mean it. However, it will serve for now.Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:While that is true (and at the risk of sounding like Rev. Wright), if the U.S. (and allies) had not made some of the choices that were made over the years, the circumstances that allowed Bin Laden to become relevant would never have occurred.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
This.Holbytla wrote:I am firmly in the belief that I would fight to the death if I believed in the cause, or if we were under siege. I doubt that I would have much choice in surrendering my life for what I thought was freedom, or repression of evil invaders, but I would certainly question giving my life to massacre thousands of innocent humans for a cause however apparently just.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Well, I actually don't know how you meant it. But generally when people say that, they mean the disaffected young Muslim men that seem to be Islamic fundamentalists' biggest fans, etc.Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:How do you think I mean it? And how do you think I should have meant it? (I realize that my post was pretty vague, but now I'm curious to hear what you think.)vison wrote:That's true, but perhaps not exactly in the way you mean it. However, it will serve for now.Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:While that is true (and at the risk of sounding like Rev. Wright), if the U.S. (and allies) had not made some of the choices that were made over the years, the circumstances that allowed Bin Laden to become relevant would never have occurred.
What I meant was the policies of past US governments in Pakistan, particularly. Not the most recent past, but back in the Reagan era in particular.
However, it's a very complicated issue and requires more explanation than I have time for. It was never a surprise that bin Laden found safe haven in Pakistan, though.
If the US has one overriding fault in foreign affairs, it is short term thinking and ignorance of the fields of operation. (Not that the US is alone in that, but since it has been the world's superpower for some time, its flaws tend to matter the most.)
I did not admire bin Laden in any way, but I am rather disheartened by the atmosphere of celebration.
The Devil likely died happy
I mostly agree with that analysis.
Dig deeper.
I've tried all day to figure out what I feel. I'm still not sure.
It is odd to see the rejoicing in the streets, odd in a way I can't quite define. I understand being glad he is gone... jeez, I am so glad he is gone. But it feels like it should be punctuated with a sigh of relief, not screams of victory. We were brilliantly successful in tip-toeing into a heavily guarded safehouse, and in 38 minutes took out a mass murderer. I wouldn't have wanted to have to do it, and I am sorry for the people who died with him, whether they wanted to or not. But I'm not sorry he's dead, and I'm not sorry our military finally killed him.
I am glad he's gone.
Relief is it, I guess. I feel relieved. I feel like that chapter that was ripped open with grief and horror almost ten years ago has finally been allowed to flip its page. I think I felt a bit stuck in that despair. Not that the pain is gone, of course it cannot be gone, but somehow... we can move on from it, now. It is part of us, but it's not all of us.
We are not defined by Sept 11. I heard it on an interview today: we are not defined by Sept 11, but instead by the 4th of July. I know that sounds hyper-patriotic and perhaps naive and idealistic, and I know it's not totally true... as Nin and Lhaewin point out, we in the USA often fall short of our own ideals. Often. Maybe even yesterday.
"Unwürdig", they share with us from the German. Maybe something like unworthy. Maybe with such high ideals to meet, we need to consider that we might be unworthy of them. Maybe we weren't seeking justice, as we wanted to believe. Maybe justice and revenge are uncomfortably close, as goals go. Maybe we're just revenge-oriented monsters, after all. I don't know, actually. Maybe we are.
But it is a relief to be able to feel some relief. We are not defined by that horrible day, and maybe we never were. Now it's easier to see, though. He's gone, and we can move on.
It is odd to see the rejoicing in the streets, odd in a way I can't quite define. I understand being glad he is gone... jeez, I am so glad he is gone. But it feels like it should be punctuated with a sigh of relief, not screams of victory. We were brilliantly successful in tip-toeing into a heavily guarded safehouse, and in 38 minutes took out a mass murderer. I wouldn't have wanted to have to do it, and I am sorry for the people who died with him, whether they wanted to or not. But I'm not sorry he's dead, and I'm not sorry our military finally killed him.
I am glad he's gone.
Relief is it, I guess. I feel relieved. I feel like that chapter that was ripped open with grief and horror almost ten years ago has finally been allowed to flip its page. I think I felt a bit stuck in that despair. Not that the pain is gone, of course it cannot be gone, but somehow... we can move on from it, now. It is part of us, but it's not all of us.
We are not defined by Sept 11. I heard it on an interview today: we are not defined by Sept 11, but instead by the 4th of July. I know that sounds hyper-patriotic and perhaps naive and idealistic, and I know it's not totally true... as Nin and Lhaewin point out, we in the USA often fall short of our own ideals. Often. Maybe even yesterday.
"Unwürdig", they share with us from the German. Maybe something like unworthy. Maybe with such high ideals to meet, we need to consider that we might be unworthy of them. Maybe we weren't seeking justice, as we wanted to believe. Maybe justice and revenge are uncomfortably close, as goals go. Maybe we're just revenge-oriented monsters, after all. I don't know, actually. Maybe we are.
But it is a relief to be able to feel some relief. We are not defined by that horrible day, and maybe we never were. Now it's easier to see, though. He's gone, and we can move on.
Last edited by anthriel on Tue May 03, 2011 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
It is funny. Strange funny, and not ha ha funny.
There was a time that I believed that drill sergeants were not human. You know those evil cadre that berate, cajole, and demean to the best of their abilities. Beyond supposed human capabilities.
Those guys that take on the form of demonic specters because your boots aren't shined enough or you aren't properly shaved enough or your uniform isn't up to snuff.
We have all seen those tyrants in the movies, and some of us have seen them in the flesh. They give the appearance that nothing can daunt them. Nothing can sway them and that they are tougher than 18th century nails and can withstand centuries of wear and tear, war, hardship and they expect you to do the same without breaking a sweat.
Yet I remember a class on capture and torture, and everyone of those steely eyed vets from foreign wars and captures, said unto a man, that there is no way to gauge or determine what each individual is capable of withstanding and there is no way to sit back in the easy chair and judge what each soul is going through. One can't determine what is and just for every individual out there, regardless of instruction or mission or law.
Of course I was shocked at that apparent admission, and made sure to listen to the rest of the lesson they has to teach. I was amazed to learn that even drill sergeants are human after all.
Yes there are laws and mission orders in all phases of military ops, but to pre-suppose any distinct or righteous end to a means of a horrific and dangerous operation is to pre-suppose every human in every circumstance and that is inherently unfair. None of us are made the same and we don't all act equally under extreme circumstances.
Suppose that it was your task in life to fly into a hostile environment (given that you believed in the righteousness of protecting your country from further murderous attacks and volunteered to stake your life for that cause) and was told you were about to go on a mission to apprehend or more likely to kill the number one cause celebre that endangered you , your family and what you knew was inherently unjust and wrong. How would you act given the myriad possibilities? How would you act even if your heart yearned for peace and to be with your family above anything else?
Unless you have been in a like situation, I find it truly maddening to see people sit back and pass judgment on issues that they don't truly understand. Some slack has to be given the people involved. That goes for the President on down to the poor guy that had to choose to pull the trigger in an unjust situation that he had no part of determining.
There is no one on the planet that prays for peace more than the soldier that has to put his life on the line. There is no one that hopes and prays more that the mission they have undertaken will come about in a fair and just mean. There is no one that prays more that their cause is just and that their endeavors will forward the human species.
These are terrorists we are talking about. These are average people in extraordinary circumstances attempting to do their job and what they believe is right.
Osama bin Laden was killed because he left the world no other choice. The poor SOB that had to pull the trigger and kill him and one of his wives has the rest of his life to try and cope with that ordeal as opposed to dealing with more deaths. Not a lot of choice there as far as I can see.
The people in charge were left with a whole lot of baggage to deal with after their predecessors left office. What else were they supposed to do? Let Osama go free?
I don't like the situation either and I certainly do not want to spend money on something I don't believe in.
Really, was there another choice? I am already tired of having to think about people I love being at extreme risk. Is it the right thing to avoid being repulsed by the situation and avoid keeping people you love from harm? Really?
I didn't make this situation, but I am damned sure I am willing to kill a few people to at least give myself some peace of mind. Some despots and murderers anyway.
I don't want to see anyone killed, but I won't bury my head in the sand either.
This is the world we live in. I would love for it to change, but regardless of what I do, there will be murderers out there. I will not stand by and watch.
If that makes me a murderer of murderers, then so be it. At least my kids may be safe.
There was a time that I believed that drill sergeants were not human. You know those evil cadre that berate, cajole, and demean to the best of their abilities. Beyond supposed human capabilities.
Those guys that take on the form of demonic specters because your boots aren't shined enough or you aren't properly shaved enough or your uniform isn't up to snuff.
We have all seen those tyrants in the movies, and some of us have seen them in the flesh. They give the appearance that nothing can daunt them. Nothing can sway them and that they are tougher than 18th century nails and can withstand centuries of wear and tear, war, hardship and they expect you to do the same without breaking a sweat.
Yet I remember a class on capture and torture, and everyone of those steely eyed vets from foreign wars and captures, said unto a man, that there is no way to gauge or determine what each individual is capable of withstanding and there is no way to sit back in the easy chair and judge what each soul is going through. One can't determine what is and just for every individual out there, regardless of instruction or mission or law.
Of course I was shocked at that apparent admission, and made sure to listen to the rest of the lesson they has to teach. I was amazed to learn that even drill sergeants are human after all.
Yes there are laws and mission orders in all phases of military ops, but to pre-suppose any distinct or righteous end to a means of a horrific and dangerous operation is to pre-suppose every human in every circumstance and that is inherently unfair. None of us are made the same and we don't all act equally under extreme circumstances.
Suppose that it was your task in life to fly into a hostile environment (given that you believed in the righteousness of protecting your country from further murderous attacks and volunteered to stake your life for that cause) and was told you were about to go on a mission to apprehend or more likely to kill the number one cause celebre that endangered you , your family and what you knew was inherently unjust and wrong. How would you act given the myriad possibilities? How would you act even if your heart yearned for peace and to be with your family above anything else?
Unless you have been in a like situation, I find it truly maddening to see people sit back and pass judgment on issues that they don't truly understand. Some slack has to be given the people involved. That goes for the President on down to the poor guy that had to choose to pull the trigger in an unjust situation that he had no part of determining.
There is no one on the planet that prays for peace more than the soldier that has to put his life on the line. There is no one that hopes and prays more that the mission they have undertaken will come about in a fair and just mean. There is no one that prays more that their cause is just and that their endeavors will forward the human species.
These are terrorists we are talking about. These are average people in extraordinary circumstances attempting to do their job and what they believe is right.
Osama bin Laden was killed because he left the world no other choice. The poor SOB that had to pull the trigger and kill him and one of his wives has the rest of his life to try and cope with that ordeal as opposed to dealing with more deaths. Not a lot of choice there as far as I can see.
The people in charge were left with a whole lot of baggage to deal with after their predecessors left office. What else were they supposed to do? Let Osama go free?
I don't like the situation either and I certainly do not want to spend money on something I don't believe in.
Really, was there another choice? I am already tired of having to think about people I love being at extreme risk. Is it the right thing to avoid being repulsed by the situation and avoid keeping people you love from harm? Really?
I didn't make this situation, but I am damned sure I am willing to kill a few people to at least give myself some peace of mind. Some despots and murderers anyway.
I don't want to see anyone killed, but I won't bury my head in the sand either.
This is the world we live in. I would love for it to change, but regardless of what I do, there will be murderers out there. I will not stand by and watch.
If that makes me a murderer of murderers, then so be it. At least my kids may be safe.
Have we taken a poll on who was rejoicing in the streets btw?
Was it the same crowd that turned over cars during World Series victories?
What was the average age? What portion of the US did they represent?
Yeah it can be any eyesore, but I don't take it too much to heart. I doubt many people are cheering for the death of even a despotic maniacal murderer. I just think that people have confused emotions, are willing to run to street corners for whatever cause is popular at the time, and like to drink beer.
Different from any other country how?
Was it the same crowd that turned over cars during World Series victories?
What was the average age? What portion of the US did they represent?
Yeah it can be any eyesore, but I don't take it too much to heart. I doubt many people are cheering for the death of even a despotic maniacal murderer. I just think that people have confused emotions, are willing to run to street corners for whatever cause is popular at the time, and like to drink beer.
Different from any other country how?
Last edited by Holbytla on Tue May 03, 2011 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hachimitsu
- Formerly Wilma
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I have been reading this, and I haven't had a chance to see much news. (I was working the election and got home around midnight. No access to media at all.
If Americans cannot answer the question of what Americans did to piss "them" off so much, after everything that has happened in the past decade, with the answer (or at least part of the answer) clear as day to me, (and many more intelligent people have explained ti over the past decade) then the US will never learn and just keep repeating the same mistakes and be surprised all over again, the next time a terrorist attack occurs. If people think killing Bin Laden, means they are safe from from terrorism, and that all the innocent have been avenged, I think they will be in for a big surprise. The comfy blanket of denial helps people sleep at night I guess.
The needs of the many outweighing the needs of few can be looked at in many many different ways. The validity and the worthiness of the needs of the "many" and the few" seem to vary depending on what a country /race/religion, one belongs to.
If Americans cannot answer the question of what Americans did to piss "them" off so much, after everything that has happened in the past decade, with the answer (or at least part of the answer) clear as day to me, (and many more intelligent people have explained ti over the past decade) then the US will never learn and just keep repeating the same mistakes and be surprised all over again, the next time a terrorist attack occurs. If people think killing Bin Laden, means they are safe from from terrorism, and that all the innocent have been avenged, I think they will be in for a big surprise. The comfy blanket of denial helps people sleep at night I guess.
The needs of the many outweighing the needs of few can be looked at in many many different ways. The validity and the worthiness of the needs of the "many" and the few" seem to vary depending on what a country /race/religion, one belongs to.
To us, Wilma, bin Laden's become more of a symbolic boogie man than anything else. We know "it", whatever "it" is, isn't over because he's dead. Until yesterday, one popular theory was he'd died years ago. But now he's dead and one mighty loose end has been tied up. Unfinished business sucks, especially when said unfinished business is attached to so much carnage. He opened up that hole on the NYC skyline. We supposedly went into Afghanistan to get him. For a decade now, we've still got the hole and Afghanistan's a bloody mess and there's no bin Laden. It's been weighing pretty hard on the national psyche. Having him gone is kind of like having a monkey off our backs. Even if, at this point, bin Laden's death is more symbolic than anything else, it's like daylight coming through a cloud. It's a relief because it's the achievement of a grim goal that was too long in coming. There've been lots of coulda-woulda-shouldas in the quest for bin Laden these past ten years and that's over now. We can take stock and move on. We need to take stock and move on.
As for the street celebrations, there are some who're celebrating the death. But I can't help but think that most are just celebrating the relief. Relief can make you giddy - I've been known to dance, laugh, shriek and cry all at once and though yesterday's events didn't move me anywhere close to that, I can see how bin Laden's death might have that effect on a New Yorker or Washington DCer.
As for the street celebrations, there are some who're celebrating the death. But I can't help but think that most are just celebrating the relief. Relief can make you giddy - I've been known to dance, laugh, shriek and cry all at once and though yesterday's events didn't move me anywhere close to that, I can see how bin Laden's death might have that effect on a New Yorker or Washington DCer.
When you can do nothing what can you do?
I failed to remember to hit upon this. Thanks for reminding me.Wilma wrote:I have been reading this, and I haven't had a chance to see much news. (I was working the election and got home around midnight. No access to media at all.
If Americans cannot answer the question of what Americans did to piss "them" off so much, after everything that has happened in the past decade, with the answer (or at least part of the answer) clear as day to me, (and many more intelligent people have explained ti over the past decade) then the US will never learn and just keep repeating the same mistakes and be surprised all over again, the next time a terrorist attack occurs. If people think killing Bin Laden, means they are safe from from terrorism, and that all the innocent have been avenged, I think they will be in for a big surprise. The comfy blanket of denial helps people sleep at night I guess.
The needs of the many outweighing the needs of few can be looked at in many many different ways. The validity and the worthiness of the needs of the "many" and the few" seem to vary depending on what a country /race/religion, one belongs to.
The needs of the many is to recognize a Zionist state and the needs of a few are to be murderous because they are insane zealots. That is what I failed to remember on 9-11.
Killing Osama was nothing more than a token sign that we won't be kow-towed into submission and the mistake is kow-towing to people that sleep under the umbrella of safety thinking that it comes without a price.
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Hachimitsu
- Formerly Wilma
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Primula Baggins
- Living in hope
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Just saying that there are some awesome posts in this thread. Especially for people like me who are still sorting all this out. Thanks.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
Oh, I'm still sorting it out, too, Prim. But there are some wonderful posts in this thread, and they really do help.
River, that is a great point. I hadn't quite thought of it that way!As for the street celebrations, there are some who're celebrating the death. But I can't help but think that most are just celebrating the relief. Relief can make you giddy - I've been known to dance, laugh, shriek and cry all at once and though yesterday's events didn't move me anywhere close to that, I can see how bin Laden's death might have that effect on a New Yorker or Washington DCer.
"What do you fear, lady?" Aragorn asked.
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
"A cage," Éowyn said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Primula Baggins
- Living in hope
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I have. My brother is a New Yorker who stood on the roof of his apartment to watch the second tower fall. He is not a bloodthirsty man, not remotely, but when I called him yesterday evening to make sure he knew what had happened—which he didn't—I got this utterly overwhelming sense of, yes, relief from him.
A good friend of his in the towers escaped, dramatically enough to figure in several magazine articles; but so very many others didn't. This doesn't fix anything; it doesn't bring anyone back. My brother knows that. But for some people, I think it closes a wound that was real, still, now.
A good friend of his in the towers escaped, dramatically enough to figure in several magazine articles; but so very many others didn't. This doesn't fix anything; it doesn't bring anyone back. My brother knows that. But for some people, I think it closes a wound that was real, still, now.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
Especially when the big news yesterday, until out of nowhere the Bin Laden news broke, was that a NATO assassination attempt on Qaddafi killed his son and 3 grandchildren instead. That bit of damning press, as if by magic, was pushed right off the radar by the Bin Laden story.yovargas wrote:Yes, I hope some photographs or video or something conclusive are released. I'm uncomfortable with being asked to just take their word on it.
Regarding photos or video, some at the White House got to watch the raid, for what reason is not clear. The horrified expressions of some of them (seen in a photo of their viewing event) are said to be in reaction to the danger the SEALs faced. More than likely though the reactions, especially from Clinton, were at seeing people being gunned down in real time. Someone being shot is ugly no matter who it is. But we can't show our leaders being sqeamish at times such as these now can we? That might send the wrong message...
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Primula Baggins
- Living in hope
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Um, SirDennis, if they didn't want to show anything that could be interpreted that way, they could simply have not released the photos.
I think the photos are very human, and I think that's good.
I think the photos are very human, and I think that's good.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
It has occurred to me that Obama has one helluva poker face. Sitting there at the White House Correspondant's Dinner, laughing with everyone else at Seth Meyer's crack about Osama bin Laden hosting a show on C-Span and all the while the SEALs were moving in and he knew it...
Imagine the cost of failure. And imagine what it would look like if they had been relaxed. I think it's important that it be shown no one responsible took it lightly.
The people watching were the people who were in on the plan. And I don't know about you, but if I'd been one of the ones giving those orders I'd feel like I owed it to both the guys on the mission and myself to sit my bum down and watch the carnage unfold, assuming it was technically possible. I don't blame them for being grim, either, though I'm not sure I'd call any of them squeamish. There are lots of reasons why Clinton might have her hand over her mouth; holding in puke is only one of them.SirDennis wrote: Regarding photos or video, some at the White House got to watch the raid, for what reason is not clear.
Imagine the cost of failure. And imagine what it would look like if they had been relaxed. I think it's important that it be shown no one responsible took it lightly.
When you can do nothing what can you do?
I want to touch on something Holby mentioned. Look at the faces of the crowds celebrating and you will notice that most of them are probably twenty or so--just about my age. I was 12 on September 11th. It took years afterwards for me to fully understand the gravity of the attacks. People my age didn't live through the actions of the US that may have precipitated 9/11 and other acts of al-Qaeda terrorism. The US embassy bombings? The USS Cole? I think I had heard those words in middle school, but couldn't have told you anything about them. The mujahadeen and the Soviets in Afghanistan? Forget it. Of course we have learned about these events since then, but living through history gives you a vastly different perspective than learning it. Many of my younger classmates at Georgetown were among those celebrating at the White House. I say with some pride for my peers that there are few groups of young people more educated about politics and international relations than Georgetown students (I was certainly among the least educated there). And they were out celebrating still, not because of any ignorance about American foreign policy in the Middle East (America's triumphs, defeats, and egregious errors) but because most of us just never thought that this day would come. For half our lives, we have heard about threats against the US and the thousands of young soldiers who have been killed in the name of fighting terrorism. Our illusion of American security was shattered at the most vulnerable of ages.
It's hard to say what I mean in the right way. I write this not because I rejoice at the death of another human being, but to try to explain that most of these people weren't celebrating out of spite or revenge or hatred, but out of relief and hope. For once, we really got the bad guy.
It's hard to say what I mean in the right way. I write this not because I rejoice at the death of another human being, but to try to explain that most of these people weren't celebrating out of spite or revenge or hatred, but out of relief and hope. For once, we really got the bad guy.
"I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived." - HDT
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Hachimitsu
- Formerly Wilma
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Thank you for explaining some of the perspective Elsha, the perspective is quite different, from a young age since they didn't have the history. I was a sort of on adult at the time of Sept 11, very early 20's, and I did have a little bit of historical perspective.
I think that is what some of my response is sort f the same and sort of different, I remember being shocked horrified in the beginning. (I remember even crying in the kitchen). I really thought and hoped The US would stick to their principles and I still agree with invading Afghanistan.
I then remembered at the same time how the world responded to Rwanda, which I think we all know. I only knew a small bit of the history of foreign policy errors in the mid east (learning about the Soviets did not stun me, I must have heard about it when I was little), but even then with my small bit knowledge of geopolitics, really affected my opinion of the whole situation quite differently from the younger peoples point of view. I think that is why in part my reaction coloured differently from the young celebrators.
I think that is what some of my response is sort f the same and sort of different, I remember being shocked horrified in the beginning. (I remember even crying in the kitchen). I really thought and hoped The US would stick to their principles and I still agree with invading Afghanistan.
I then remembered at the same time how the world responded to Rwanda, which I think we all know. I only knew a small bit of the history of foreign policy errors in the mid east (learning about the Soviets did not stun me, I must have heard about it when I was little), but even then with my small bit knowledge of geopolitics, really affected my opinion of the whole situation quite differently from the younger peoples point of view. I think that is why in part my reaction coloured differently from the young celebrators.