The Heroism of Faramir

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

I'll turn the question around. Why would Tolkien have Faramir tell Sam what a "pert servant" he was if he hadn't realized that Sam had "accidentally on purpose" (as we like to say) revealed that Frodo carried the One Ring?

I guess the first thing we'd have to consider is what Faramir meant when he said that Sam was a "pert servant", so let's look at some definitions of pert.

From the American Heritage Dictionary :

ADJECTIVE:
pert·er , pert·est
1. Trim and stylish in appearance; jaunty: a pert hat.
2. High-spirited; vivacious.
3. Impudently bold; saucy.

ETYMOLOGY:
Middle English, unconcealed, bold, short for apert, obvious, frank (probably influenced by Old French aspert, espert, clever), from Old French, from Latin apertus, open, past participle of aperre, to open; see wer- 4 in Indo-European roots

I don't think either of the first two definitions describe Sam at all, so I'm going to go with the third.

Faramir, as son of the Ruling Steward, was an aristocrat. We know that his father had servants, and I think it's pretty safe to assume that Faramir was very familiar with the usual role and demeanor expressed by servants. I think that we may also expect that most servants do not put themselves before their masters, but remain in the background while their masters do most or all of the talking and debating.

'See here, Captain!' He planted himself squarely in front of Faramir, his hands on his hips, and a look on his face as if he was addressing a young hobbit who had offered him what he called 'sauce'...'What are you driving down on us! If you think my master murdered this Boromir and then ran away, you've got no sense; but say it, and have done!...

'Patience!' said Faramir, but without anger. 'Do not speak before your master, whose wit is greater than yours..'

I think the above is an example of what Faramir would term "pertness": impudently bold.

Examining the etymology one sees terms like "open" and "unconcealed". If Sam were "play-acting" (as he suspected Strider might be doing when they first met him), he would be hiding or concealing his purpose, just the opposite meaning of the roots of the word pert.

[Frelga]

And, of course, I didn't expect that anyone would agree with me any more this time then they did last time.

So you are not disappointed.

Would someone remind me please, did Sam know that Boromir tried to take the Ring by force? I think not, but I can't recall for sure.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Only if you assume that Frodo told him (which I do assume).

Tom, I don't think that it is reasonable to assume that Faramir was referring to that earlier exchange. It makes much more sense to me that he was referring to the exchange that had just occurred.

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

I think that's a safe assumption to make, Frelga.

Tom, I don't think that it is reasonable to assume that Faramir was referring to that earlier exchange.

I disagree. I believe it's perfectly reasonable for Faramir to express an opinion of someone based on all of the behavior he'd witnessed over a couple of days, particularly since he had been scrutinizing them very carefully so that he might wisely make a very important decision regarding their fate. Faramir knew that this decision would not only impact the fate of Frodo and Sam but also his own, and, quite possibly, the fate of all Middle-earth.

So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, V. I'd like to add that I highly respect your opinion. I know that you are very knowledgeable on LOTR and Tolkien's other writings, and that you are an intelligent and logical man who thinks deeply and thoughtfully about these things. I enjoyed our discussion.

[superwizard]

Tom, I don't think that it is reasonable to assume that Faramir was referring to that earlier exchange. It makes much more sense to me that he was referring to the exchange that had just occurred.

Believe it or not everyone I believe this is the first time I've disagreed with V on something Yes I know shocking isn't it?

Don't you just love it when people understand Tolkien is different ways? To me that's one of the great things about his work.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I enjoyed our discussion.

Me too. I didn't really expect to convince anyone.

Believe it or not everyone I believe this is the first time I've disagreed with V on something

It had to happen eventually.

[Faramond]

I think your reading of the Sam-Faramir interaction is dead on, V. Sam is straightforward, but straightforwardness can be subtle too. He knows that the Faramir eventually have to face the temptation of the ring, now that the ringbearer is in his power. Best to get it out of the way.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

That makes me extremely happy.

And that is exactly how I see it.

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

I thought about this some more last night:

That's the basic argument that people made before. I don't agree. Look at his role in the "conspiracy" and his reaction when Gandalf caught him eavesdropping. And his pretending to be asleep when Frodo was speaking to Gildor. Sam was more then capable of play-acting when he wanted to.

I thought Voronwë's most convincing argument regarding the possibility of Sam's play-acting with Faramir was the so-called "conspiracy" of Merry, Pippin, Sam, and Fatty Bolger spying on Frodo. (Anyone can eavesdrop while pretending to sleep; it doesn't take a great deal of imagination to do that. Sam might have two motivations for doing so, (1) to learn something about his master's business, and (2) he was fascinated with Elves.*)

I am inclined to believe that Merry, the most capable of the group, was the ringleader of the conspiracy. Sam, who after all is a servant, was asked to be the chief information gatherer because he was routinely in and out of Bag End. Pippin's remark about Sam--

'Sam is an excellent fellow, and would jump down a dragon's throat to save you, if he did not trip over his own feet...'

--tells you something of how he, and most likely Merry, viewed Sam. I very much doubt that it was Sam's idea to spy on his master, and probably was convinced to do so by being told that it was for his master's benefit.

Tolkien was also very clear in revealing the conspiracy, their activities, and their purpose. He was likewise very clear in revealing Strider's bit of play-acting in Bree. (You may recall Frodo asking Strider, "Why the disguise?", and why Strider hadn't told the Hobbits that he was a friend of Gandalf's. Strider expresses that he desired to be accepted for his own sake, or something like that.) If Sam had truly been play-acting with Faramir, I have to think that Tolkien wouldn't have revealed it with something so subtle as "A pert servant, Master Samwise".



*Speaking of this alleged pretending to sleep, I could not clearly recall this passage so I attempted to look it up but could not find it. All I found was:

After a while Pippin fell fast asleep, and was lifted up and borne away to a bower under the trees...Sam refused to leave his master. When Pippin had gone, he came and sat curled up at Frodo's feet, where at last he nodded and closed his eyes. Frodo remained long awake, talking with Gildor...
'It is,' said Frodo; 'but I thought my going was a secret known only to Gandalf and my faithful Sam.' He looked down at Sam, who was snoring gently.

There is no hint that Sam was only pretending to sleep through the end of the chapter or in the beginning of the next. Perhaps Sam reveals it in the house at Crickhollow? If so I couldn't find it.

[superwizard]

There is no hint that Sam was only pretending to sleep through the end of the chapter or in the beginning of the next. Perhaps Sam reveals it in the house at Crickhollow? If so I couldn't find it.

Sam does when trying to convince Frodo to take him (and Merry and Pippin) with Frodo to Rivendell.

'And after all, sir,' added Sam, 'you did ought to take the Elves' advice. Gildor said you should take them as willing, and you can't deny it.'
'I don't deny it,' said Frodo, looking at Sam, who was now grinning. 'I don't deny it, but I'll never believe you are sleeping again, whether you snore or not. I shall kick you to make sure.

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

Okay, that still doesn't prove that Sam pulled one over on Faramir. It's far easier to pretend to sleep then to alternately turn white with fear and blush with embarrassment.

[superwizard]

Okay, that still doesn't prove that Sam pulled one over on Faramir. It's far easier to pretend to sleep then to alternately turn white with fear and blush with embarrassment.

Don't get me wrong old Tom I still agree with you on this one!

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

Sorry, superwiz, I am remiss in not thanking you for providing the quote. So thank you.

I know Voronwë wouldn't make something up, and it's very unlikely he would be mistaken about something like that, but he is human after all. (As are we all.) Once I saw the quote I recognized it, but wouldn't have (and didn't) know where to find it.

I guess I'm a little miffed because I think I've made pretty good defense of my argument, and it would have been nice to have been acknowledged for doing such. :|

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Sorry, Tom. You have made a good defense of your argument, no question about it. In fact, I started writing a post pushing my position further, and decided that it really wasn't worth it. Obviously, its the type of thing that no one can be proven to be "right" but I think that good argments can be made both ways. You certainly have held up your side quite admirably.

[Impenitent]

I am of the opinion that Sam did not deliberately tell; I believe he stumbled.

I've followed the argument you've made Vinnie and I can see why you may argue that point but the critical thing for me is this:

Sam tends to be suspicious until his loyalty is completely won, and he was certainly suspicious of Faramir and his men at the beginning of this interchange. Faramir had not yet proved himself trustworthy. To tell him deliberately would have been a gamble; even if Sam had a leaning towards trusting him, to do so deliberately would have been risking EVERYTHING! They COULD NOT have escaped if Faramir had proven untrustworthy.

I don't believe he would have gambled with Frodo's life, or with the Ring. I don't believe he would have divulged deliberately unless he was sure, 100%, absolutely, guaranteed.

I may have seen it your way if Tolkien had given us any hint that Sam believed there was an independent means of escape, if there was any clue that Sam had a plan or an idea.

But that's the thing: Sam doesn't have an independent plan right up until Shelob forces his hand. In everything before that, Frodo leads and he follows, except when it was a point of 'service' rendered to Frodo.

I don't believe Sam told.

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

I may have seen it your way if Tolkien had given us any hint that Sam believed there was an independent means of escape, if there was any clue that Sam had a plan or an idea.

I think Sam did have an idea. At one point during their captivity Sam suggests to Frodo that he should put on the Ring to escape. Frodo refuses because he is afraid that he would completely fall under the power of the Ring should he put it on again. Let me se if I can find the passage...

[Impenitent]

Yes, I recall that...the only possible escape is for Frodo to put on the Ring...but as you say, Frodo refuses and therefore it's crazy talk to think that Sam would risk EVERYTHING on a hunch that Faramir is trustworthy. He just wouldn't do it.

(And if he had done it, I think Tolkien would have been a little more transparent about it.)

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'm afraid I think you guys are confusing the book with the movie:

Sam: We have to get out of here. You go. Go now. (He crawls over to where Frodo sits.) You can do it. Use the Ring, Mr. Frodo. Just this once. Put it on. Disappear.

Frodo: I can't. You were right, Sam. You tried to tell me. I'm sorry. The ring is taking me, Sam. If I put it on He'll find me. He'll see.

I don't recall any comparable passage in the book, and the (fairly comprehensive) annotated transcript at stupidring.org does list any. But I (and they) could be wrong, of course.

[Impenitent]

I'll be in Ithilien in about...oh, a week, I think...unless I take it slow, in which case it may be two weeks...I'll let you know what I find when I get there.

(I really, really, cannot recall whether it's in the book! Am horrified! This re-reading is just in the nick of time!)

[Old_Tom_Bombadil]

I'm afraid I think you guys are confusing the book with the movie

That thought occurred to me after I couldn't find it in the book. Darn that PJ!