Éowyn, Shieldmaiden of Rohan

[oldtoby]

Yeah, I see it as Merry's stab wounds the Wiki and distracts him, allowing Éowyn to get in the killing blow. Without Merry any stab by Éowyn would probably have been parried by Wiki.

[yovargas]

But the sinews! And the unknitting! And the will!

(Or to paraphrase, you're all wrong and I'm right. Specially Tolkien. )

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Yov, thanks for the needed laugh. It was well timed.

[Queen_Beruthiel]

Well obviously I think that Éowyn killed the WiKi, but that she wouldn't have lived long enough to kill him were it not for Merry.

Team work.

With respect, I must disagree with the "rich kid" take on Éowyn. It's a modernist take on a figure in a semi-primitive, rough-hewed society and doesn't "fit". The Rohirrim are portrayed as hardy frontier folk, accustomed to living in a debateable land, harried by a ruthless enemy. Medieval English princes fought pitched battles when they were in their mid-teens, and this would be true of the earlier societies upon which Tolkien based the Rohirrim. Éowyn is unlike her brother and cousin only in being female.

Aragorn does not tell her that she will be safe in the mountains. He tells her that she has been given a charge, and must stand by it, in brisk solder-like fashion.

He doesn't soft soap her. Yes, she has been given a tough, unglamorous job. No, she cannot cut and run. His clipped comments might be hiding concern for her (he later remarks on her desparation, recognised by him at this time). They also smack of impatience. He cannot follow his heart's desire, he obliquely informs her. His terseness forms a nice contrast to the uber-sympathetic Faramir.

[/quote]

[truehobbit]

I just wanted to say how happy it has made me to read the fabulous posts in this thread - there are even some left, as I couldn't get through all - just as I read Mossy's post about posting at 4:30 AM, it was the time almost to the minute here!

I just wanted to quickly say that I'm thrilled with Jny's comparisons of the concept of the "felix culpa". There are some "buts" I'd like to add, but reading the idea as such was a revelation!

The very first thread I started on TORC was about characters who do the right thing by directly disobeying orders, but for some reason, I've never thought of Éowyn in this context! (I should check my thread again and see if anyone else did, because I don't remember.)
However, I think the disobedience of Faramir or Beregond is of a different kind - still, it might be worth comparing them.

I need to read some posts here again, too, but for now, thanks to all for this beautiful thread!

[Dindraug]

With respect, I must disagree with the "rich kid" take on Éowyn. It's a modernist take on a figure in a semi-primitive, rough-hewed society and doesn't "fit". The Rohirrim are portrayed as hardy frontier folk, accustomed to living in a debateable land, harried by a ruthless enemy. Medieval English princes fought pitched battles when they were in their mid-teens, and this would be true of the earlier societies upon which Tolkien based the Rohirrim. Éowyn is unlike her brother and cousin only in being female.

Hardy frontier folk ....

No, the Rohir were a mix of the Mid Saxon with various Germanic tribes of the 4-8 entury. Actually a very sophistocated society. Think Charlamagne, not Eric the Viking. It is wrong to think of these people as primative, the law codes for example would trounce many nations today, as would the social structures. When Tolkien based his Rohir on them what he was doing was fitting thier culture into a settled enviroment. They were quite advanced in many ways.

Having said that, those culture were strongly patriarcial, and womens role (especially the young female heir) were very controlled. There was not the oppertunity to go off and be a warrior, they had to be prepared for home life, marriage etc.

Medieval English princes did fight and die in war at what we would think today is an early age, think Henry V etc, but note that the princesses did not. Also worth poining out that there is almost a thousand years between the Saxon culture of Sutton Ho and say Edward IV or Richard III.

Women did fight, but rerely. Noble women, never (I am interested if people do have genuine records of any BTW).

Which brings me to the other aspect about Dernhelm that always grates. Tolkiens description of Éowyn is that she is quite slight, the White Lady of Rohan/Ithilian etc, a very typical late Saxon or early Norman noble woman. She has not trained in arms, is not used to training with fighting, and yet she arms up for a ride accross Rohan/Gondor, fights the big fight, and lays the bad guy.

I say this as a historian and renactor who is used to arms and armour of the anglo norman period. It is heavy, cumbersom, and you do need to know what you are doing. Most of our shorter or slighter folks, like me, bend easy. I am 11 stone, armour and kit when worn is another 5-6 stone, its cumbersom and hot. Even after several years of training and using this stuff I would not want to ride to a big battle and fight in it without a brake and a lot of water

And the period sword is not a stabbing weapon, its a slashing and cutting one. When it has been used against armour (particually mail), it blunts and becomes useful for crushing bone, not dainty pokes in the eye.

I just do not see Éowyn at that point in the battle having the strenght to stab WIKI enough to be the one that slew him....

think of the unknotting sinews

[JewelSong]

...

Whoops! Wrong thread! How'd THAT happen?

[vison]

Dindraug, you have brought up many points that I have long noted. While Éowyn is a wonderful character, in order to truly enjoy her the reader must overlook a great deal.

Still, we are told that she was called "Shieldmaiden", and it is possible that as a tomboyish girl she was allowed to take some training with her cousin Theodred and her brother Éomer. I seem to recall that she possessed arms of her own.

So many things about that ride to Mundberg, in particular, are just nonsensical, chiefly any possibility that she could have ridden undiscovered.

And then, having Merry on her saddle-bow whilst going into battle! Having spent a great deal of my girlhood on horseback I know that just having Merry on the horse with her would have hampered her beyond hope of wielding any weapon.

However, we mustn't let "facts" spoil a good story.

Éowyn is an interesting character, but as I have said above, I don't agree with many readings of that character!


Like so many others, I have written fanfic about Éowyn and the hardest part of making the story satisfactory in my eyes was to get her trained and armed. I did it, but then my Éowyn is not much like Tolkien's!

[wilko185]

I talked about Aragorn and Faust a little bit in the TMU thread, iirc. Perhaps it deserves at thread of its own ... Sauron does not fear that Aragorn has taken the Ring, he hopes for it. If Aragorn had truly taken the Ring, Sauron's victory would have been assured, for that would have destroyed the fellowship of the West. It is not only the fellowship that knows this, of course; Sauron also knows it.

Aragorn used the palantír to lead Sauron to believe he had accepted the devil's bargain ... this was not a threat, it was like dangling a shiny thing in front of Sauron's eye. Much more effective than any threat could have been for Sauron was then transfixed by anticipation of his own victory.

I have to say I don't think the text supports this interpretation ("not for naught does Mordor fear him..."). But I'll leave this for some other thread .

This is the comment that strikes me: "As long as you keep going, you don't need hope? "

Someone else who at least *seems* to lose all hope (but who carried on regardless) is Samwise

... after all he never had any real hope in the affair from the beginning; but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed. [Outside the Black Gate]

However, Sam is dubbed Hope Unquenchable, of course...

But even as hope died in Sam, or seemed to die, it was turned to a new strength. Sam's plain hobbit-face grew stern, almost grim, as the will hardened in him, and he felt through all his limbs a thrill, as if he was turning into some creature of stone and steel that neither despair nor weariness nor endless barren miles could subdue. [Approaching Mount Doom]

Sorry, I don't have much on-topic to say, except there are some very interesting ideas here. And this

But the sinews! And the unknitting! And the will!

Why do I imagine that said in the voice of Professor Frink?

She has not trained in arms, is not used to training with fighting, and yet she arms up for a ride accross Rohan/Gondor, fights the big fight, and lays the bad guy.

Do we actually know she hadn't trained?

"But I am of the House of Eorl, and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield a blade, and I do not fear either pain or death."

[JewelSong]

But even as hope died in Sam, or seemed to die, it was turned to a new strength. Sam's plain hobbit-face grew stern, almost grim, as the will hardened in him, and he felt through all his limbs a thrill, as if he was turning into some creature of stone and steel that neither despair nor weariness nor endless barren miles could subdue.

I love that quote. It makes me tear up every single time.

I think that Éowyn was not undiscovered. I imagined that the men knew she was along and just practiced kind of a "don't ask, don't tell" sort of thing. Looked the other way, as it were.

[Alatar]

She has not trained in arms, is not used to training with fighting, and yet she arms up for a ride accross Rohan/Gondor, fights the big fight, and lays the bad guy.

How did I miss that bit?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

No, the Rohir were a mix of the Mid Saxon with various Germanic tribes of the 4-8 entury.

I would say that the Rohirim were a made up people based in some ways on Tolkien's extensive knowledge of the language and history of the Mid Saxon and various Germanic tribes of the 4-8 century, but who had their own character and qualities based more upon their role within Tolkien's feigned history then an effort to be truly historically accurate.

In my opinion, of course.

Which brings me to the other aspect about Dernhelm that always grates. Tolkiens description of Éowyn is that she is quite slight, the White Lady of Rohan/Ithilian etc, a very typical late Saxon or early Norman noble woman. She has not trained in arms, is not used to training with fighting, and yet she arms up for a ride accross Rohan/Gondor, fights the big fight, and lays the bad guy.

I have to dispute this as well. As Queen B has already pointed out, this is the main physical description that we get about Éowyn:

Very fair was her face, and her long hair was like a river of gold. Slender and tall she was in her white robe girt with silver; but strong she seemed and stern as steel, a daughter of kings.

Slender she may be, but certainly not "slight". She is clearly presented from the beginning as a strong woman in body as well as in will.

As for not being trained in arms, that is again contradicted by the text. In addition to the quote from Éowyn herself that wilko has already quoted, there is this from Hama:

There is Éowyn, daughter of Éowyn, his sister. She is fearless and high-hearted.

If Éowyn had been the "typical late Saxon or early Norman noble woman, not trained in arms, not used to training with fighting" that you describe, how would Hama know that she was fearless and high-hearted?

I say this as a historian and renactor who is used to arms and armour of the anglo norman period. It is heavy, cumbersom, and you do need to know what you are doing. Most of our shorter or slighter folks, like me, bend easy. I am 11 stone, armour and kit when worn is another 5-6 stone, its cumbersom and hot. Even after several years of training and using this stuff I would not want to ride to a big battle and fight in it without a brake and a lot of water

And the period sword is not a stabbing weapon, its a slashing and cutting one. When it has been used against armour (particually mail), it blunts and becomes useful for crushing bone, not dainty pokes in the eye.

I just do not see Éowyn at that point in the battle having the strenght to stab WIKI enough to be the one that slew him....

I think we base our expectations are based largely on our own experiences. With your greater knowledge and experience with the historical time period in question, you have an expectation that the story will match your experience, and when it stands out for you. That is only natural. For me, I don't have that greater knowledge and experience, so what stands out as a problem to you does not bother me. Plus, I live with a "slender and fair" woman who has greatly mastered a very physical endeavor that has traditionally been almost exclusively the provence of strong men, and so I am intimately familiar with how strong the will of such a person can be.

Will alone is great ....
Nothing can hinder, circumvent or control
The firm resolve of a determined soul

I think that Éowyn was not undiscovered. I imagined that the men knew she was along and just practiced kind of a "don't ask, don't tell" sort of thing. Looked the other way, as it were.

I agree, Jewel. That is how I have always interpreted this line:

There seemed to be some understanding between Dernhelm and Elmhelf, the marshal who commanded the eored in which they were riding.

[MaidenOfTheShieldarm]

Which brings me to the other aspect about Dernhelm that always grates. Tolkiens description of Éowyn is that she is quite slight, the White Lady of Rohan/Ithilian etc, a very typical late Saxon or early Norman noble woman. She has not trained in arms, is not used to training with fighting, and yet she arms up for a ride accross Rohan/Gondor, fights the big fight, and lays the bad guy.

Slender does not mean weak. In addition, Éowyn has clearly had at least some training and would appear to have her own set of maille. She appears in it in front of Meduseld before Aragorn leaves for the Paths. It's no secret that she has armour, so why shouldn't it be her own? The fact that she has her own armour would also seem to indiciate that she has training.

This is the comment that strikes me: "As long as you keep going, you don't need hope? "

Someone else who at least *seems* to lose all hope (but who carried on regardless) is Samwise

... after all he never had any real hope in the affair from the beginning; but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed. [Outside the Black Gate]

That is exactly the quote I was thinking of. So it's really Sam and Éowyn who are more similar, perhaps, in those terms.

But even as hope died in Sam, or seemed to die, it was turned to a new strength. Sam's plain hobbit-face grew stern, almost grim, as the will hardened in him, and he felt through all his limbs a thrill, as if he was turning into some creature of stone and steel that neither despair nor weariness nor endless barren miles could subdue.

Change the name and this sounds like something that could well have been said of Éowyn.

As I was flipping through my copy of The Road to Middle Earth looking for a quote, I found a passage about this whole idea. Shippey quotes "The Battle of Maldon," an Old English poem. It has this coda:

Heart shall be bolder, harder be purpose, / more proud the spirit, as our power lessens . . .

He mentions that part of Tolkien's purpose in LOTR was to dramatize his 'theory of courage.' My guess is that the theory of courage was something akin to the quotes above, both from LOTR and the Battle of Maldon. Tolkien says that "it's mainspring was despair." I'm not entirely sure how to word where I wanted to go with this, so I'll let it be and come back to it if someone hasn't already said it better by then.

I agree, Jewel. That is how I have always interpreted this line:

There seemed to be some understanding between Dernhelm and Elmhelf, the marshal who commanded the eored in which they were riding.

Ditto. There's no way Éowyn made it all the way to Gondor without being discovered. Elfhelm knew about both her and Merry.

I would say that the Rohirim were a made up people based in some ways on Tolkien's extensive knowledge of the language and history of the Mid Saxon and various Germanic tribes of the 4-8 century, but who had their own character and qualities based more upon their role within Tolkien's feigned history then an effort to be truly historically accurate.

According to Tom Shippey, the Rohirrim weren't based on any historical people but the Anglo-Saxons of literature. Despite all of the highlighting I did this spring, I can't find the quote I was looking for. I'll look for it tomorrow, but I believe the essence of it was that the Rohirrim are based on a literary tradition, not a historical one. And also what Voronwë said.

More later when I'm not so tired.

[Frelga]

And the period sword is not a stabbing weapon, its a slashing and cutting one. When it has been used against armour (particually mail), it blunts and becomes useful for crushing bone, not dainty pokes in the eye.

I am not sure whether you refer to the same thing, Din, but I came across the infamous debate about whether medieval swords were light and sharp or blunt and heavy. Personally, I am on the "light and sharp" side. I found this immortal quote in the course of my research, "You mean they said, if I can't cut his head off, at least I'll knock him a bump on the head?"

Certainly, after she is discovered, everyone is grieved that she is wounded, but none of the Rohirrim is shocked that a woman was capable of fighting and defeating such fearsome opponent.

I agree that Elfhelm and probably a few other soldiers knew perfectly well who Dernhelm was. And that implies that Elfhelm at least believed that Éowyn was at least as well trained as the other young soldiers.

On a tangent, was it Diamond/Pearl who wrote that lovely drabble about Elfhelm's decision to take Éowyn along?

[Dindraug]

Plus, I live with a "slender and fair" woman who has greatly mastered a very physical endeavor that has traditionally been almost exclusively the provence of strong men, and so I am intimately familiar with how strong the will of such a person can be.

True Voronwë, it is not the slender part that precludes activity, its the weight of mail (chainmail over cloth armour or even clothing moves round horrendously, even whhen fastened) and the way it moves and shifts.

From Wilko (so good to see you )
Din wrote:
She has not trained in arms, is not used to training with fighting, and yet she arms up for a ride accross Rohan/Gondor, fights the big fight, and lays the bad guy.

Do we actually know she hadn't trained?

Éowyn wrote:
"But I am of the House of Eorl, and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield a blade, and I do not fear either pain or death."

Yes, quite right. But training and use are two very different things indeed. Think of it as using Excel. Everybody who works in an office uses excel, most people train in how to set it up and do simple spredsheets at least, but most people never use it 'in anger'.

The same with swords. I have been useing then for a long time, twenty odd years in some form or other, but for the last two or three seasons I have relied on pole arms, knives and axes to fight. I am really very rusty with a sword, and would feel unsafe using one without some retraining.

Think of Éowyn, who has been working as handmaiden to Théoden for a long time now. She does not get out to swing a sword around in proper training with her brother and cousin (ok, this is implied rather than fact, but it would be unseamly).

My impression is that she was a bit of a tom boy, and would have been part of the boys games of training so that she knew principles, but I am not sure if she would have used a metal sword against anybody (training was with wooden ones mostly)

If Éowyn had been the "typical late Saxon or early Norman noble woman, not trained in arms, not used to training with fighting" that you describe, how would Hama know that she was fearless and high-hearted

You can show spirit and fearlessness without fighting. I always thought Hama was referring to her 'pluck', 'spunk' or 'chutzpah' rather than her ability to stab. Courage is not the ability to fight, courage is the ability to stand in adversity

Frelga, its not the sharpnes of the blade that is important, its the ability to cut through mail. The only blade I know capable of it is called a faux de guarre or war scythe. It is a nasty big carving knife effectivly, the blade about five to seven pounds in weight, and nasty to wield. Light and sharp is fine to fence with, but the quality of the metal of the early medieval sword is not enough to be flexable enough to fence. And if you try, some big Viking turns up with his meat cleaver and parrys your blade, and it snaps cleaning (or not so cleanly). Absolutley terrifing when it happens by you, and from the viewpoint of a man in combat, well I would rather have an effective weapon than stand there with broken sword

But as Vision said, this is a fantasy, not a historic study, and in the fantastic (or mythic) you have to allow for bits not to make sense. And Tolkien was writing from the view of the Hobbits, so effectivly he was Frodo writing Merry and Pippins accounts. Good ol Frodo saw one big fight, in Moria. He never saw a battle (Sam saw the one in Itilien and Bywater had no armoured men).

Facinating though

[wilko185]

From Wilko (so good to see you )
Din wrote:
She has not trained in arms, is not used to training with fighting, and yet she arms up for a ride accross Rohan/Gondor, fights the big fight, and lays the bad guy.

Do we actually know she hadn't trained?

Éowyn wrote:
"But I am of the House of Eorl, and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield a blade, and I do not fear either pain or death."

Yes, quite right. But training and use are two very different things indeed. Think of it as using Excel. Everybody who works in an office uses excel, most people train in how to set it up and do simple spredsheets at least, but most people never use it 'in anger'.

The same with swords. I have been useing then for a long time, twenty odd years in some form or other, but for the last two or three seasons I have relied on pole arms, knives and axes to fight. I am really very rusty with a sword, and would feel unsafe using one without some retraining.

But you are not of the of the House of Eorl . As you say, this is not history, it is heroic fantasy. The hobbits didn't appear to receive any training at all (in the book anyway), yet did well enough in battle. Strength of character or hereditry are more important than practice and physical strength (cf Galahad: "My strength is as the strength of ten, because my heart is pure")

[Dindraug]

Hobbits are short and taller folks do not see them so they can go for low shots and dirty fighting. Besides, I am sure the rough pubs of the shire teach them a thing or two about fighting

But seriously, the height thing is always going to be a huge advantage. If you use a shield and spangenhelm (simple helm with short nasal protection, standard for the dark age period and from what I can tell standard in middle earth), you loose a lot of vision. You can't see what is happening at the level of your groin, stomach and legs. If anybody is short and down that low, they have little or no oppersition. Its dirty fighting, but the best way to kill an armoured man. And if you look at who the hobbits actually fight, they do not do so well, but were lucky. It is very dirty fighting (nasty hobbits).

Frodo stabs troll in foot as it is wedged through a door (Moria).

Merry cuts of hands of orcs grabbing him (Amon Hen).

They take no part in the siege of Orthanc!

Merry sits behind Dernhelm and hangs on, unable to loosen his sword and fight (Ride of the Rohirrim).

Pippin runs around a lot, hides in shadows (Minas Tirith)

Merry stabs WIKI from below and behind, missing his vital and stabbing him in the knee (although this obviously slays the Lord of the Nazgûl) (Plennor fields)

Sam stabs Shelob, not skilled precise thrusts but wild almost berserk ones (Schlobs lair)

Pippin stabs troll from below, and lets the bast fall on him (Morannon)

Merry kills thug leader in the Battle of Bywater (Shire).

In all, not that glorious a military record for the short folk. The times they stand out, Bywater, they are the only well armoured people there. That would help.

And don't forget how history has the great brought down by the slight. Richar cour de lion for example, shot in the neck by the cook of the castle he was besieging, who had been shown how to use the crossbow the day before. I think Tolkien was very aware of this sort of scenario, and the importance in literature and myth of the unassuming slaying the great (David and Goliath anyone).

Éowyn and Merry between them forfill that role, albeit in quite a clumsy way (I still don't believe that she can kill the winged beast in one stoke, if so, why was the beast so terrifing?).

[Jnyusa]

Din: I think Tolkien was very aware of this sort of scenario, and the importance in literature and myth of the unassuming slaying the great (David and Goliath anyone).

Yes, I think this is quite true.

Jn

[Queen_Beruthiel]

We could do with putting the sophisticated/primitive thing in context. Tolkien helpfully categorises his Men as High, Middle and …er…. pretty low. The Rohirrim are definitely Middle; not as sophisticated as the descendants of Númenor but a cut above some in ME. Incidentally, Faramir notes the fearlessness of the Rohirrim, men and women both.

Faramir on the Rohirrim:

“But the stewards were wiser and more fortunate. Wiser, for they recruited the strength of our people from the sturdy folk of the sea-coast, and from the hardy mountaineers of Ered Nimrais. And they made a truce with the proud peoples of the North, who often had assailed us, men of fierce valour, but our kin from afar off……”

“And we love [the Rohirrim]: tall men and fair women, valiant both alike….”

Aragorn on the Rohirrim:

“They are proud and wilful, but they are true-hearted, generous in thought and deed; bold but not cruel; wise but unlearned, writing no books, but singing many songs, after the manner of the children of Men before the Dark Years.”

Now with regard to Éowyn, in addition to the quotes already provided, I would add these:

A swift stroke she dealt, skilled and deadly.

With regard to how she, and the women of Rohan are perceived:

“And would you have your proud folk say of you: ‘There goes a lord who tamed a wild shieldmaiden of the North! Was there no woman of the race of Númenor to choose?’”

All ME societies are patriarchal, but Rohirric women are perceived as wilder, less refined, than Gondorian women.

Parallels with ancient primary world societies can be made, but will never be exact. It was not uncommon for high ranking females in the Middle Ages to take to the field, usually in defence of their thrones or inheritances. Matilda, the mother of Henry II; Margaret of Anjou; Isabella of Castile; Mary of Guise; Mary Queen of Scots; Mary Tudor; Elizabeth Tudor. They may not have done any hacking and slashing, but many of them were more than mere figureheads: they made strategic decisions. I don’t know when the word “princess” first came into common usage. At any rate, Elizabeth I called herself a “prince”, as in the famous rebuke to Cecil about the word must not being used to princes (speaking of herself).

Joan of Arc was a different matter: she was a peasant.

At any rate, LOTR is indeed a heroic romance, but the author gives human behaviour a certain verisimilitude, even when one of his characters is offing an undead warlord. It helps when he (and we!) can tap into iconic scenarios like David and Goliath.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Great post, QB. Exactly what I was trying to say.