Passdagas the Brown wrote:One thing I will say, which is at the heart of why I enjoyed these films more than LOTR, is that there was very little of this:
Oh goodness me yes, PJ does drown things in a ton of golden syrup at times. I accept his syrupy, sentimental Grey Havens because I know it was done that way out of genuine affection and a genuine desire to do it right ... and because it fits the general tone of his films. But I prefer the restrained emotion of the 1981 BBC radio LotR's Grey Havens, which is more powerful because of that restraint ... it haunted me for years, the same way the book does. Very bittersweet. Waah.
I would love to see a 'Tolkien fading into madness' emoticon.
"Frodo undertook his quest out of love - to save the world he knew from disaster at his own expense, if he could ... " Letter no. 246, The Collected Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien Avatar by goldlighticons on Live Journal
Voronwë the Faithful wrote:The acorn scene is the best example, but there is also the scene in the DoS EE when Bilbo defends Thorin, as well as his lovely defense of the dwarves (which is mainly referring to Thorin) in the scene where he gives the Arkenstone to Bard and Thranduil (a really great scene), and the scene where Thorin gives him the Mithril coat, as well as numerous small moments throughout the second two films, sometimes just a look between them, sometimes a brief comment, even as Tolkien starts to fade into madness.
Cross-posted with yov, obviously.
This is the main reason I'm quite fond of these movies, I loved how they handled Thorin and Bilbo and the acting from the main cast was excellent. For all the unfortunate decisions Peter Jackson made about this adaptation (both to do with the scripts and in his desire to experiment with new technology) I think he's really great at getting the best out of his actors (always been - I mean the guy could make Marky Mark give a respectable performance in the Lovely Bones he's that good).
I wouldn't been able to forgive Jackson and co if they butchered my favourite characters even with the best script and special effects.
With reference to previous discussion of the Galadriel in Dol Guldur scene, this is the interpretation from the actor's mouth (courtesy of Brian Sibley's Official Movie Guide to BotFA)
As in The Fellowship of the Ring, the filmmakers opted to explore, once more, a surprising aspect to Galadriel's character. "It is almost," says Cate, "as if you cannot have good without the threat of it being challenged and even taken over to the dark side, as if you only know shadow when you know light. Peter wanted to give a shadow to Galadriel in The Lord of the Rings, and he really went there in The Hobbit. He referred to it as 'psychic distress,' in the sense of a war within, that internal battle between one's dark side and one's better self. In coming to Gandalf's aid, Galadriel has to grapple with the seductive power of The Necromancer to draw other beings into a void of darkness, despair and decay. She has to summon every particle of her strength to resist, and in doing so, we see Galadriel's incredible power and realize that - but for the fineness and strength of her spirit - how quickly that power for goodness could be turned to evil."
One thing that struck me is that Blanchett's phrase "you only know shadow when you know light" seems it might be a variation on Tolkien's own oft-misquoted line from "The Passage of the Marshes"
For a while they stood there, like men on the edge of a sleep where nightmare lurks, holding it off, though they know that they can only come to morning through the shadows.
Last edited by Elentári on Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is magic in long-distance friendships. They let you relate to other human beings in a way that goes beyond being physically together and is often more profound.
~Diana Cortes
That's very interesting, Elen, thanks for sharing it here! I rather like that, though I don't know how much it comes across in the scene without preknowledge that that is what they intend.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
On another subject, whatever happened to Dain's red axe???
There is a two-page spread in the Weta Chronicles all about the design for Dain's weapon (a curious mention of Thrain in the text but that must either be a mistake for Dain or further mention of Dain is missing for it to make sense!)
(clickies)
and in Sibley's official movie guide to BotFA Connolly described the prop he filmed with thus:
Dain's weapon of choice is the double headed axe, as Billy explains: "The shaft's about five foot long and the blade's curved like a scimitar for slicing into people. On the other end of the shaft is a ball with spikes sticking out of it, like a hedgehog, for stabbing people in the face. So I can hit you in the face with the blade and then get you on the way back with the hedgehog. It's beautifully made but is really quite an alarming piece of equipment."
There seems little doubt that when Jackson decided to go back and insert the CGI Connolly he also made the decision to change out Dain's famous red axe - but why swap it for the hammer than had already been used in the AUJ Prologue for Thrain??
Last edited by Elentári on Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is magic in long-distance friendships. They let you relate to other human beings in a way that goes beyond being physically together and is often more profound.
~Diana Cortes
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
Just saw BotFA for the third and last time (in cinema). The ending, especially Bilbo's farewell to the company of dwarves was even more moving this time, probably because it is also my goodbye from (cinematic) Middle-earth. It truly is an acquired taste: The more times you watch it the less focused you become on the bad parts and the more you cherish the excellent ones - of which there are aplenty. Can't wait for the EE.
I like the "red" hammer. It gives some serious weight to the hits Dain delivers, which is missing in the weightless sword and spear thrusts of the other characters. It's actually a perfect weapon for a PG-13 film that can't show too much blood and gore, as the impact looks and feels devastating, despite not seeing the resultant crushed skulls. And, of course, it looks and feels very dwaaaaaarven.
Frankly, I think that decision is one of the easiest to explain...Other things, like the decision to repeat the same Alfrid gag a million times, and to have characters continuously give him important responsibilities (despite his dangerous incompetence and lack of moral compass) is far more of a head-scratcher!
Yeah, have to agree, PtB...I believe PJ even mentions in one of the recent interviews that the rough cut of BotFA received an R rating, so I imagine Dain's axe massacre was one of the things to be toned down, along with the alleged beheading of Fili (still think it's a definite nod to Gelmir!)
There is magic in long-distance friendships. They let you relate to other human beings in a way that goes beyond being physically together and is often more profound.
~Diana Cortes
Well, saw it last night with some friends. I haven't had a chance to get their thoughts on it yet, as we went our separate ways afterwards, but my reaction is ..... meh!
I didn't totally suck. There were some good moments, most notably the rescue of Gandalf by Galadriel, Elrond and Saruman. I just LOVED seeing Galadriel kick butt (but what was with her clothing being all in rags during the battle??) and seeing Saruman before he went completely to the Dark Side. Elrond's entrance was one of the highlights of that scene, too, the one moment in the film where I went "YESS!!"
The rest of it was pretty much what we've come to expect from P.J. Even the love scene with Fili did not move me, nor did Bilbo's return home seem anything better than a sentimental anticlimax. I stayed to listen to Billy Boyd sing, but even the song didn't move me the way the first version of it I saw did, as it was played over all the great moments from the previous films (and there WERE some great ones, I have to thank P.J. for those!)
But this? For the first time, I have no burning desire to go back and see it again. It was a sad conclusion to a wonderful journey that started back in 2000, when I first got internet access and joined TORC. I feel quite sad that the journey couldn't have ended on a better note.
Moments that clunked the most: Legolas's acrobatics with the crumbling tower, the dwarves all dressed up in armour and helmets, THEN when the moment comes, marching into battle without a stitch of armour on, and oh, yes, some of the dialogue was indeed cringe-worthy, but one of the benefits of getting older is I've forgotten the exact lines that made me squirm in my seat and roll my eyes.
By the time all the battles were over, I was actually yawning, and wanting to go home. We got there late, and as a result, had to sit quite close to the front, which is not the best place to be for a 3D movie, especially an action-filled one, and that might have contributed to my fatigue.
When the night has been too lonely, and the road has been too long,
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong,
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes The Rose.
Sorry you didn't like it, Sunny. I do suspect that sitting in the front influenced your experienced. It is interesting that the part you liked was the part that I thought was the worst part of the film!
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
I'll have to go back and see where you said that Voronwë, and why. In LOTR, you don't really get to see these very powerful characters uncloaked (except for Galadriel going radioactive, and, of course, Saruman-of-many-colours becoming a total dick, and fighting with Gandalf.) For me, it was a wonderful Tolkien moment seeing the Three, plus the most powerful wizard in Middle Earth take on the Nine, and the shade of Sauron. (Okay, Gandalf was down for the count, but Jackson DID play up the fact the three Elvish rings were present in that scene.)
After reading others' comments (still a work in progress) I realize what was missing for me was character development. The acorn scene and Bilbo's scene where he presents the Arkenstone to Bard (and is called to task by Thranduil...one of the best laughs of the movie!) are very nicely done, but as someone else commented, when he's asked at the end of the movie, "Who is Thorin Oakenshield?" and he responds "A friend", that reply rings rather hollow to my ears. There was not enough character development in this film to make me feel that, nor to make me feel any profound sadness at Thorin's death. I wept real tears over Boromir's death in LOTR. I wasn't even close to being moved that much by any of the deaths in this film.
I wonder if watching the movies back-to-back would change that. Would there be sufficient development of the relationship between Bilbo and Thorin in the other films to make me feel differently about the end of the movie? And would the Tauriel/Fili relationship seem more realistic if I watched DoS back-to-back with BOFA?
When the night has been too lonely, and the road has been too long,
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong,
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes The Rose.
Voronwë the Faithful wrote:It is interesting that the part you liked was the part that I thought was the worst part of the film!
Which part was that? The Dol Goldur stuff?
Yes. I think it is utterly ridiculous that Galadriel goes from trembling in fear at the Nazgûl to more powerful than Sauron himself in a blink of an eye. And while I now see what they were trying to get at with the green Galadriel after reading Cate's comments that Elen posted, I don't think that comes across as well. Plus I think Elrond's "you should have stayed dead" is the most cringeworthy line in probably the whole trilogy (and the only one that is in the same league as many cringeworthy lines in the LOTR films), and while it is cool to see Saruman kick some butt, the whole fight with the Nazgûl looks more and more ridiculous to me every time, particularly since apparently Elrond and Saruman didn't actually do anything to them, since there they are lined up in front of their master before Galadriel goes all nuclear on them all.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
It's official - you and I are different species! Dol Goldur was easily my favorite scene in this movie and probably the trilogy.
(Favorite as an individual scene. Unfortunately, it feels so disconnected from the rest of the movie that it ultimately makes the entire DG sidetrip feel like a waste of time. It should probably all have been cut.)
I wanna love somebody but I don't know how
I wanna throw my body in the river and drown
-The Decemberists
yovargas wrote:It's official - you and I are different species!
Yup!
I like you nonetheless!
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
Helm Hammerhand wrote:Just saw BotFA for the third and last time (in cinema). The ending, especially Bilbo's farewell to the company of dwarves was even more moving this time, probably because it is also my goodbye from (cinematic) Middle-earth. It truly is an acquired taste: The more times you watch it the less focused you become on the bad parts and the more you cherish the excellent ones - of which there are aplenty. Can't wait for the EE.
I too thought Dol Guldur was poorly conceived, especially on my second viewing.
And for pretty much the same reasons V states. Especially Galadriel going all damsel in distress in front of the Nazgûl to wonderwoman against Sauron. And what exactly happened with the Nazgûl? so after all they were acting the game when Saruman and Elrond stabbed them? since they did reappear in full state later.
Elrond 's line however is far from bring the cringe-worthiest thing in the sextet. I mean, seriously, that is worse than "I could have anything down my trousers" or "why does it hurt SO MUCH?" or "drink their blood"???
Seen it before. Disturbing and hilarious. 
I accept his syrupy, sentimental Grey Havens because I know it was done that way out of genuine affection and a genuine desire to do it right ... and because it fits the general tone of his films. But I prefer the restrained emotion of the 1981 BBC radio LotR's Grey Havens, which is more powerful because of that restraint ... it haunted me for years, the same way the book does. Very bittersweet. Waah.
