Self-immolation as protest

[Túrin Turambar]

Immolition is definitely a radical move. Just ask Denethor.

For a moment there I thought you were referring to the TORC poster of that name

[Inanna]

I think to understand the "use" of it, you would have to know more about the belief systems and/or religions that consider it "powerfully symbolic." Many Eastern religions are heavily steeped in symbolism and also hold a belief in reincarnation and/or personal duty and sacrifice.

It is not MY belief system, nor, obviously, yours. However, it is a very ancient system. I don't think the aim of self-immolation is to "achieve something" of earthly use. The meaning of the act may very well be believed to be one not of this world, but of the next...or at least the next "level."

I don't pretend to understand it and I certainly am no expect in Eastern religious traditions and beliefs. But I think dismissing the act as "pathetic" fails to take into account firmly and deeply held beliefs that may be just as valid as yours for the person committing the act.

I agree with Jewel here. Every person has their own strong belief, and to just shrug it off as "pathetic", "deranged" or "despair" is I think very opinionated of us. Sure, we don't feel so strongly about anything to give up our lives for it... but that does not mean that somebody else cannot. And this is their life only - in the sense that he/she is not killing someone else with them - and in that sense it is their choice.

Regards the Eastern angle - I am an Indian, and there are several instances in our history of self-immolation. When the Mughals invaded India, and the Rajputs were losing, the women of the ruling household committed self-immolation - not in protest (so its different) - but in the sense that they would rather die than be with the Mughals. But do note that they took self-immolation as the route, not jumping off a cliff, which is a far less painful death.

We immolate our dead... not bury them, and the fire is actually "holy" for us. Our marriage rites are around a fire - keeping the fire as witness, so to speak. In earlier times, there was also a horrible-horrible ritual of the wife self-immolating herself on her husband's death pyre, called "Sati" - to give him company in the next life or in salvation (am not clear on this point). This is, thankfully and obviously, is illegal in India now, and is not practised either (though the one odd news in a few years does come up in the media).... am just bringing it up to support Jewel's point that Eastern religions have connotations on self-immolation which are probably very-very alien to you folks.

I am not saying that I think its good, or sensible or whatever - just that it is not that weird for us as it seems to be to a lot of you.

In recent history... there is Rajiv Goswami (who I mentioned earlier), who committed self-immolation against reservations in India. There was one person this year also, who tried to do so (on the very bloody same topic), but his action was very quickly denounced by fellow students etc.

[JewelSong]

I think that a suicide bombing is pathetic. But I have a lot of respect for the men who do it. It is not admiration, but a basic respect for their power and potential destruction.

I think I draw the line here...I have no respect for a suicide bomber, whose goal it is to kill as many other people as possible. Do I respect what they are capable of? Yes, but the use of the word "respect" there has a slightly different meaning than when I describe respecting a person. I do not take a suicide bomber's threats lightly and in that sense, I have a healthy respect for what they claim they can do. But I do not respect them.

You even have to respect bacteria, not matter how pathetic.

Bacteria don't know any different.

To call self-immolation crazy and shrug it off the way we do that crazy cat lady up the street... It's just not right, and represents everything that is wrong in the world. To shrug off someone protesting by burning themselves flakes off a bit of what makes us human - - our ability to understand.

I agree with you here, PrinceA. And I would go so far as to say that we should also try to understand the cat lady.

[PrinceAlarming]

You even have to respect bacteria, not matter how pathetic.

Bacteria don't know any different.

No. But neither does the suicide bomber. That person believes that he or she is doing all they can to further their cause. I know that the needless and violent destruction of innocent people is horrible To a Palestinian suicide bomber, those 'innocent bystanders' are the enemy.

I remember reading about nemerous instances during World War II where american GIs would find dead German soldiers with jewely inscribed 'if God be for us, than who be agains't us'. Most of the American soldiers had the same belief.

It is belief that drives the protest and suicide bombing. One thing you've taught me, Jewel, is that beliefs must be respected. That involves respecting the individual... And if respect were as prevalent as it should be, I don't think that suicide bombings or self-immolation would be in existence.

This includes self-respect. Which is probably the most important.

[Inanna]

It is belief that drives the protest and suicide bombing. One thing you've taught me, Jewel, is that beliefs must be respected. That involves respecting the individual... And if respect were as prevalent as it should be, I don't think that suicide bombings or self-immolation would be in existence.

This includes self-respect. Which is probably the most important.

I am just not comfortable with the bundling of self-immolation and a suicide bomber in the same category. The motivations are very different for both, as are the results.

Assuming that someone who commits self-immolation has no self respect, is stretching the line a bit, imho. Maybe that person has more self-respect than us - he/she believes so strongly in the cause that they take this extreme form of protest - and they say "I, as a person, do not want to live in a world where such things exist. And hence, as a protest I leave you and hope that this may change something".

Just because you or me do not believe that strongly about something, is no reason to denounce the people who do.

[PrinceAlarming]

I wasn't denouncing anyone... Was I?

I agree Mahima, I shouldn't be lumping the suicide bomber and the self-immolator together. I do put them both in a human tragedy cetegory though.

I can't assume that someone has no self respeect by their actions alone. What you've said above is what I've wanted to say, but lack the concentration and eloquence.

Who knows, maybe you and I do believe strongly enough to burn ourselves over something... We just haven't had the proper motivation yet.

[Inanna]

Goodie... if you weren't. sorry, if I misunderstood.

Shallow as this may sound - I hope am not *that* motivated about an issue, ever.

[MithLuin]

I am more impressed by people who are willing to live for an issue than die for it. Quite frankly, the dying is easier....

[Inanna]

I think both are very tough - self immolation or living for a cause.

But I agree with you Mith, I definitely have more respect for Nelson Mandela than for Malachi.