"Gondor calls for aid!" (and other movie changes)

[solicitr]

While Tolkien does give us several examples of persons violating orders for what is advanced as good cause... in none of these cases is the act inherently wrong, merely disobedient.

There is one more case, and one which is much more ambiguous: Beregond. One whose action in killing his comrades was very arguably immoral. One who did regard Denethor's authority as having been voided by ...insanity? Some other reason? An episode written, interestingly, at a time when the issue of "just following orders" was very current. Any thoughts?

[vison]

Beregond knew what he was doing. He knew he had probably forfeited his life, but he did what he thought was right.

While Tolkien undoubtedly did not have the Nuremberg Trials in mind when he wrote it, I remember vividly thinking how "applicable" Beregond's story is to real life. And I have thought so many times in the last 8 years.

We once had a rather spirited discussion about "disobedience" in LOTR. Maybe we should bash at it again. Beregond's disobedience was not the only pivotal instance.

[Inanna]

By your rule, then, it's OK to dump another country's government if its polices are "wrong." That's a snakepit, there.

soli, I explicitly said that these situations are too complex to have hard and fast rules.

They didn't have to portray Denethor as such an unredeemable jerk from the get-go. And I'm not saying that out of some purist inclination. I just think it would have been a better story all around.

Of course. No questions about that, at all.

[yovargas]

Then was it a similarly immoral usurping of power to try and save Faramir from Denethor? Cuz to me it's the exact same thing.

[solicitr]

While Tolkien undoubtedly did not have the Nuremberg Trials in mind when he wrote it

Well, he wrote Book V in 1946, when the trials were still a year in the future but the question of what do with captured top Nazis was very much current, and the discussion of the Holocaust and "following orders" an active one.

[Frelga]

I could live with Denethor being all paranoid and crotchety, I could deal with him being a jerk. But did he have to be so incompetent? At least PJ gave him a motivation for not wanting to call on Rohan (Aragorn). But he didn't do the first thing to secure the city, not even getting civilians out of harm's way. And none of his lords and captains, if he has any besides his sons, had done the first thing either.

[Impenitent]

Vinnie, your opening position is one I've held since the first time I saw the movies - Gandalf's action was unGandalfian. Alas! A number of his actions in the third film are unGandalfian, from the trickery involved in the lighting of the beacons to standing by while the flaming Denethor leaps off the cliff.

The problem is, you see, that once you've osgiliated a character so far off the arc as he did with Denethor, there is no going back.

Speaking of osgiliating a character and osgiliation itself...

No. Let's not speak of it. It's been said before and whenever I think of it I get all crotchety.

I still recall, so clearly, hearing Sam say, in the ruins of Osgiliath, "by rights, we shouldn't even be here!" and shouting out to the screen, "Too bloody right!"

My companion in the theatre hid under his coat and disowned me.

But I was right!

[Lalaith]

Good one but not as funny as the little boy who, at the very moment Shelob was lurking above Frodo and ready to strike, yelled:

"SHE'S RIGHT ABOVE YOU!!!!"

(The whole theatre cracked up!)

[Impenitent]

I wasn't trying to be funny! I was mad, I tell you!

But the kid...well, he was funny! Made me giggle, and that made me choke because it's midnight here and I shouldn't be making noise.

[Alatar]

I really never got all the fuss about Osgiliath. I had much bigger problems with the cliff-dive.

[Pearly Di]

Lalaith, that's too funny!

I still recall, so clearly, hearing Sam say, in the ruins of Osgiliath, "by rights, we shouldn't even be here!" and shouting out to the screen, "Too bloody right!"

I was once with some fellow geeks and we ALL shouted that at the DVD. Those very words! "Too bloody right!"

I wouldn't ever shout out during a cinema viewing though! Just whisper something furiously in my neighbour's ear. Assuming they are a fellow geek, of course. Otherwise they might think I was a bit odd.

I really never got all the fuss about Osgiliath. I had much bigger problems with the cliff-dive.

Al, for me it's not so much the fact that they go to Osgiliath. It's what happens in Osgiliath.

Like Sam's super-saccharine United Nations speech.

[Alatar]

Yeah, I hated that, but not the supposed character assassination of Faramir. Which all goes to prove that you can't please all the people all the time.

Incidentally, lets not forget that in the 2 film treatment Frodo's confrontation with the winged Nazgûl was already in place, except it was to happen at Amon Hen. I wonder what people would have thought of that treatment, where Gandalf was deposited directly to Helms Deep by Gwaihir after escaping Saruman. I also wonder if that script will ever be released as a curiosity for fans?

[yovargas]

I really never got all the fuss about Osgiliath. I had much bigger problems with the cliff-dive.

I must sound like a broken record about this but the big deal people make of the "cliff dive" is utterly baffling to me. Baffling!!

[Alatar]

Its just dumb. It adds nothing to the movie.

Osgiliath at least adds narrative drive.

[Inanna]

What does Osgiliath add to the movie? what nonsensical narrative drive?

Incidentally, lets not forget that in the 2 film treatment Frodo's confrontation with the winged Nazgûl was already in place, except it was to happen at Amon Hen. I wonder what people would have thought of that treatment, where Gandalf was deposited directly to Helms Deep by Gwaihir after escaping Saruman

[Alatar]

Really? Do I have to spell it out? Forget the book. In the movie, Osgiliath makes sense. The cliff dive doesn't.

[Inanna]

Actually, I would be interested in hearing how you think it makes sense, Alatar. I hated that entire sequence and never really bothered to figure it out. Am still too much "what the the hell? THIS never happened" etc.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Rather than splitting this off, I adjusted the thread title to accommodate the new discussion.

If I get industrious, I'll hunt up Iavas' old thread at TORC that discusses the various ways that the "cliff dive" advanced the plot of the films.

[Alatar]

Well, from a character POV, its Faramir's duty to apprehend Frodo, its also in his own personal best interests to try to get his Father to accept and respect him. Also, to let Frodo go, based only on his say so seems ridiculous. To quote Denethor "To use this thing is perilous. At this hour, to send it in the hands of a witless halfling into the land of the Enemy himself, as you have done, and this son of mine, that is madness."

Faramir only decides to let Frodo go when he sees the ring at work. Now, there are those who claim that the fear of Frodo handing over the ring to the next passing Black Rider should be a deterrent, which is a fair point. But for Faramir, to send the ring to his Father, knowing his state of mind, would be suicidal. He sees the power it has over Frodo, would he wish that power to be visited on the already failing Steward of Gondor?

So, cinematically, it works. It makes sense. Well to me anyway.

[Inanna]

Thanks, Alatar... I'm going to re-read this section of the book sometime today. I just saw ROTK again last night.... so let me think about this.

The question is:
"From the movie's perspective, did the narrative have to be changed from the book to the current one in the movie?"