Just as many notes as necessary

[truehobbit]

Hmmh, I'm more used to opera than both theatre and concert, so at concerts I miss the visual aspect and in the theatre I miss the singing!

But, yes, I can imagine out of tune singers to be, er, jarring!

I don't know how Don Giovanni and "something easy" go together, but I sometimes think the simpler performances have good chances to be the better ones!
Our choir was asked to sing in The Magic Flute with an ensemble of young singers two years ago, the set decorations etc were as simple as it gets - but that was better than some pseudo-intellectual nonsense modern directors with too much money to waste come up with.

And my favourite theatre-memories are from student-performances.

I think when there's more heart and enthusiasm than money and artsy-ness, you get a good chance to see something good!

(I heard a quote once, I think it was by G.B. Shaw, saying: modern directors use classical pieces like the cuckoo uses other birds' nests! )


sam, that site looks fabulous - but I'm not quite sure whether I'm getting it right how to use it etc - maybe I can catch you on IM sometime and you can talk me through how it works!

[Jnyusa]

I don't know how Don Giovanni and "something easy" go together

It's an easy opera to listen to ... unlike Wagner, for example, where one needs an attention span and the ability to 'hear' recurring themes ... small town population with little to no musical education - you'd never get them to sit through half of Tannheuser much less Tristan und Isolde or something like that. Or even Fidelio because of the length.

I think most people begin their enjoyment of opera with Mozart or with 'Carmen' because they've probably already heard some of the music in popular settings and the operas play out more like modern musicals.

Jn

[truehobbit]

Ah, I see!
Yes, I could agree that in spite of the music being deep, the theme dark and the whole meaning of it all somewhat mysterious it does appeal to people because of the cool action and great tunes.
A bit like Hamlet or LOTR in that!

But don't people get annoyed with all the recitatives and the fact that there's hardly any choir and it being in a different language?
The operas that are considered "for beginners" here are those that have impressive choir scenes and, instead of recitatives, either have spoken parts or don't have such a clear-cut distinction between arias and recitatives. Operas like Don Giovanni, which consist of a succession of (longish) arias connected by recitatives (though Mozart's recitatives are meaningful, it takes some getting used to this kind of thing, I think) are, AFAIK, considered boring for newbies (though Don Giovanni probably less so than other Italian Mozart operas).

Hmmh, very interesting - come to think of it, I don't know what the general take here on Don Giovanni as an opera for n00bs would be - wonder if I can find out somehow.

[JewelSong]

For a total Opera Virgin, I think I would go with something by Puccini. Very angsty, very romantic. Maybe La Boheme.

OR...for those with a more adventurous streak, I'd go with Aida or Tosca.

Carmen is fun, I guess, but I always have a problem with an opera sung in French that takes place in Spain.

[Primula Baggins]

Technology is stepping in. Even our small local concert hall now can put up "supertitles" (giving translations of the words) for operas, even though there are operas there only a few times a year. I think this does make opera much more accessible, even with recitative; I've been glad to have them for unfamiliar works.

They also now use them during choral works, except during the Bach Festival when Helmuth Rilling is conducting—then they leave the house lights slightly up so people can read the translation from the concert program.

Purists are probably annoyed by both methods, and I can sympathize—but not everyone knows every opera (or the New Testament in German, for that matter).

[Rowanberry]

From all the various criticsm I have heard (this is not in response to people here particularly - it's quite a common view, I find) I think Mozart has the problem (or, well, it's not his problem, but that of the recipients) that he is so extremely famous, and particularly so extremely famous in a positive way.
(...)
When you are universally popular and make people feel good about themselves, though... what's a well-trained critic to say but that you are shallow and infantile?

I've never seen it that way - I'm not one with a conception that everything that is popular and successful must be in some way inferior, and that "real art" is something that "goes over your head" (I find that kind of attitude highly snobbish).

I'm quite ready to admit that, Mozart was a very exceptional individual, especially in how easily the music came to him, and (referring to Jewel's analysis) in his ability to bring something new and fresh in a very rigid style of music in which nobody else saw that anything could be made differently. His music, however brilliant it may be, just doesn't speak to me the way some other composers' works do.

And, well, I'm not a professional in music, and refer to all symphonic music as "classical", regardless of style.

[Jude]

So can we resurrect this discussion - now that I'm here?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Absolutely. What do you have to say?

[Jude]

I'm currently working on a Mozart aria, "Sento che il core mi dice", for a competition in February. It's an unabashed "display" aria, written to show off the abilities of the tenor it was originally written for.

Well-written, pleasing to the ear, melodic, it certainly makes a great "competition" piece. But it lacks some of the depth of his later works (I believe it was written in his early teens).

In "Die Entführung aus dem Serail" we can see a great leap forward - although he still commits major dramatic gaffes. For example, the orchestral introduction to the aria "Martern aller Arten" goes on for a full two minutes! And this aria is meant as a response to something the other character says.

Two minutes of absolutely glorious music, that completely ruin the dramatic pacing. Oh well.

And from "Idomeneo" onwards, we have a perfect union between words, music, and drama.

I do have issues with his last two operas, though.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Absolutely. What do you have to say?

Alot, apparently.

We do have an "Ampitheatre" in Bag End where people can post links to short audio or video recordings of performances that they were involved with, btw.

[Jude]

We do have an "Ampitheatre" in Bag End where people can post links to short audio or video recordings of performances that they were involved with, btw.

Oh, I'll have to check it out!

Does nine minutes qualify as "short"?

[Primula Baggins]

I think if you say in your post how large the file is, people can decide for themselves whether their systems can handle it.

I would love to hear a nine-minute recording of yours!

[Jnyusa]

So would I!

I didn't know you were a singer, Jude. How wonderful!

Jn

[truehobbit]

Yay, good to see you here, Jude!

I had meant to post in here again all the time, to get back to the filmed operas we'd been discussing (I saw Losey's Giovanni on TV last week), but didn't get round to it.

In "Die Entführung aus dem Serail" we can see a great leap forward - although he still commits major dramatic gaffes. For example, the orchestral introduction to the aria "Martern aller Arten" goes on for a full two minutes! And this aria is meant as a response to something the other character says.

So, that would mean you are with the Emperor on this one, that there are too many notes!
But I have to disagree here, Jude!
You can only call it a "gaffe" if you demand that opera should be following certain dramatic rules. But why would you do that?
I don't think that only the operatic style Mozart himself was influential in developing in the last third of the 18th century, and which set the trend for 19th century opera, can be called opera - I think all the musical theatre before that, which followed different dramatic rules, is opera just as much.
Calling a long introduction to an aria a gaffe because it prevents the kind of response you'd get in a 19th century opera is like calling Shakespeare's omitting to divide his plays into five proper acts a "gaffe".
I know the story about Mozart himself saying about one aria (though from what I read somewhere it's not sure he meant this one) that it was too much a sacrifice to showiness and display of the singer's art - but, even if that should be the case, I don't think he would have gone so far as to throw out all dramatic coherence.

(Idomeneo was before Entführung, though - so, is the latter a step backwards?)

I'd be interested to hear your issues with The Magic Flute and Tito, but be prepared to find them contradicted!

[vison]

Does Jude sing?

Do fish swim in the ocean?

You guys are in for a treat.

My preferred "high falutin" art is The Ballet. I do so adore The Ballet.

I really do, it's not a joke. My husband and I had subscription seats for years and years but gave them up as they got terribly expensive and it's such a trek to Vancouver from our house, etc., etc. But we saw Nureyev dance (admittedly past his prime) and Dame Margot Fonteyn, and Baryshnikov (like Beckham in Madrid, he wasn't in the company just to sell t-shirts) and Evelyn Hart and Karen Kain and every other great dancer and company from all over the world of the last three decades. Our favourite ballet company was and is Ballet BC, a small impoverished local company that makes up in verve and enthusiasm for its lack of money. Wonderful, wonderful dancers! Equal to any from anywhere.

But now and again we went to the Opera. My very first REAL opera was Il Trovatore. My chum Christine and I went. After we got over the sticker shock of our ticket prices (!!!!!) we got all dolled up and trotted off to The Queen Elizabeth theatre and climbed up into the nosebleeds and read our programs before the house lights dimmed.

Unfortunately the plot caused more laughter than dramatic tension in us. Reading of the wicked witch who threw her own child into the fire by mistake made us laugh enough to draw snotty looks from people around us.

Verdi's music was lovely, though. And I've learned to love some opera since. It's just so expensive to go! I listen to Pavarotti on the car stereo sometimes, old recordings from when his beautiful voice was still so beautiful it makes me weep to hear it. I spurn Domingo and the other Spanish guy. I don't weep when I hear them sing, they awaken little emotion in me.

Everything I know by Mozart seems lovely to me. Shimmering. Musical, joyous, full of energy, playful, beautiful. I don't know much, sadly.

[Jude]

If you like ballet, it's too bad you won't be in Ottawa this week. They're putting on "Dracula", with Mahler's Second Symphony as the music. I'll be in the offstage chorus. (unfortunately, we won't be able to see the dancing - it would be interesting to see how they treat the Dracula story with Mahler's music!).

Performances are Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, for those who think they'll be in the area!

Hobby, don't get me wrong - I love love love the music from Die Zauberflöte and La Clemenza di Tito. My reasons for my reservations will have to wait for another post.

I didn't quite follow what you said about operatic styles - can you rephrase?

[truehobbit]

Wow, vison, you've seen an impressive range of dancers!

LOL, I'd probably have been with the people giving snotty looks! It's very true that much of the plot of operas doesn't make too much sense, realistically (though I think in the case you describe it's plausible enough) - Pratchett's Maskerade makes very funny use of this particular characteristic of operas!
Still, people giggling at the wrong places - just like people giggling at Gollum's "dialogue" !

It's a pity it's so expensive where you are! Here's it's quite ok, especially in the "nosebleeds" (LOL, never heard it called that ) it's quite affordable.

I like "shimmering" as a word to describe Mozart's music!

Jude - not sure where you didn't follow, but I'll try.

I was thinking of different styles of opera during the centuries: basically the difference between the clear separation of plot and emotional response/comment in the arias and the later dramatic style that made no such differences. They are essentially different in how they treat the dramatic aspect of the play. But I wouldn't say that only the latter is truly or correctly opera. I also think that both approaches can result in a dramatically coherent piece.

I guess, my point comes from where you said that "Entführung" was "a great leap forward".
If there's a leap forward that means you see a development towards some ultimate aim in opera. As if there was some point to be reached at which opera is perfect, and everything before that is just development and trying things out to find the 'real' thing.
I don't think there is an ultimate aim towards which opera must be heading. I don't think there is one "right" way in which to present a drama with music.

More specifically to the subject:
You said it was a mistake to introduce "Martern aller Arten" with a long orchestral intro, because the aria was a response to the Bassa's cue.
Apparently, you have very tightly defined idea of what a response to a cue should be like, so a deviation from this is to you a mistake.
But I think the intro works very well: not only does it introduce the most heroic answer possible, which is worthy of its own little overture, but I'd also say it works dramatically, in that it gives the character the time to reflect and work up the resolution to make her heroic statement, which is after all more than a defiant snap, but a well thought out and, at least initially, fairly calm argument!

(For anyone wondering what we are talking about:
The heroine is being held prisoner in a Seraglio, and Bassa Selim, who is in love with her, wants her to love him. She refuses, saying she didn't mind being killed for that. He threatens to inflict "tortures of all kinds" (the cue she picks up which makes the title of the aria). After some thought/the intro, she replies that tortures of all kinds may be in store for her, but that she laughs at pain and was only afraid of being disloyal to her beloved, that if the Bassa would let her go she'd pray for heaven's blessings on him, but as he was determined, let him do what he want, death at last would set her free.)

I love love love the music from Die Zauberflöte and La Clemenza di Tito.

That's good to hear! They are two pieces that provoke discussion, so I look forward to hearing your issues!

[vison]

I've seen that Dracula, and quite liked it! It seems to me we saw the North American premiere. I would love to see it again.

My favourite ballet with Mahler's music is with music from Das Lied von der Erde. Exquisite. ( Ur licht? Was that part of it?)

[Jude]

Urlicht is from Mahler's 2nd - are you still talking about Dracula, or a different ballet?

I may need to get you to describe the plot and action to me - I won't know how much the offstage chorus will get to see until Thursday night.

Hobby - I don't have a "tightly defined response to what a cue should be" - as long as it makes sense.

The music that introduces the aria is fabulous, and I love to hear the aria done in recital or concert. In the context, it always gives the producer a big challenge on what to have going on during the intro - often they resort to "stage business"

And pity the actor that plays Bassa Selim - not only does he have to stand through the two-minute intro, he also has to stand through the then-minute aria that follows!

This isn't the only problem with the opera - another glaring issue is the fact that this aria comes right after another long aria by the same character!

So, assuming that you can find a soprano that has the stamina to sing both arias in succession, the act seems to me quite a bit out of proportion.

But I can forgive a lot, because the music is so divine.

[vison]

Not Dracula, no. But it's also the 2nd symphony?

Urlicht was part of the music for a ballet the name of which escapes me, but it was LOVELY. Very spare and bare sets, dancers wearing only leotards, maybe even nude in some scenes. I can't be sure I remember.

One of my alltime faves is "In the Middle, Somewhat Elevated", choreographed by William Forsythe and with music by a modern Dutch composer, Thom Willem.

Sorta "industrial music", which I would never in the world just listen to, but when people dance to it? A whole nother ball game.