The Desolation of Smaug anticipation thread [SPOILERS]

[Elentári]

Most of it is pretty much to be expected from what we've seen in AUJ. I'm sure the change to the arrival at Beorn's is a result of that scene originally being placed near the end of AUJ when it was only 2 films, and even though it now comes at the beginning of DoS, where the re-introduction of the Dwarves would have been useful as a refresher, it would have been too much to expect them to re-film that scene.

Tauriel I'm 'meh' about till I've actually seen how her role works within the overall bigger picture, though my instinctive reaction has been that she is probably unnecessary...

But the revelation that really sticks in my craw is this:

- When Thorin & co are captured, Thranduil guesses they're going to the Lonely Mountain and will release the dwarves to go on their way, for a promise of a cut of the gold. But Thorin refuses, so he imprisons them.

Yes, I know you think it's all in the spirit of Tolkien because Thranduil is supposed to have somehow guessed they were after the gold in Erebor and that's why he imprisoned them, even though they wouldn't admit it, but there is nothing in TH to say that he ever seriously thought they had a chance of regaining the hoard - I mean would you give 13 Dwarves decent odds against a dragon?

[sinister71]

None of that particularly bothers me, in and of themselves. I'll have to see how they play out.

One thing that I find a bit tiresome is this idea that the changes from the source material are more in The Hobbit films (at least as seen so far) than they were in LOTR. I honestly don't believe that to be true. In fact, I think there might have been more in AUJ that stayed truer to the source material than in any of the three LOTR films.

LOTR total had about 4 hours of made up content sprinkled throughout all three films. If I am remembering what myself and a few friends figured out. With AUJ we were at at least an hour already and DOS looks like its gonna add another 3 hours on top of that. Not to mention we haven't even thought about TABA yet.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

No, but he does specifically state that the dwarves decide not to say anything to him because they didn't want to give up any of the treasure.

For Thorin had taken heart again hearing how the hobbit had rescued his companions from the spiders, and was determined once more not to ransom himself with promises to the king of a share in the treasure, until all hope of escaping in any other way had disappeared; until in fact the remarkable Mr. Invisible Baggins (of whom he began to have a very high opinion indeed) had altogether failed to think of something clever.

The other dwarves quite agreed when they got the message. They all thought their own shares in the treasure (which they quite regarded as theirs, in spite of their plight and the still unconquered dragon) would suffer seriously if the Wood-elves claimed part of it, and they all trusted Bilbo.

In addition, just before describing the decision to imprison Thorin, Thranduil is described as such "If the elf-king had a weakness it was for treasure, especially for silver and white gems; and though his hoard was rich, he was ever eager for more, since he had not yet as great a treasure as other elf-lords of old." I don't think there is any question that the implication is that he wanted a share of the treasure, and the dwarves knew it.

Now how this plays out, and whether the description in the Annual is completely accurate, obviously we don't know. If it is clumsily done, it might not come across well. I would prefer, as much as possible for it to be left implied, as it is in the book, rather than explicitly stated. But that is rarely Jackson's way, he being "somewhat" less subtle that Tolkien himself.

[sinister71]

Most of it is pretty much to be expected from what we've seen in AUJ. I'm sure the change to the arrival at Beorn's is a result of that scene originally being placed near the end of AUJ when it was only 2 films, and even though it now comes at the beginning of DoS, where the re-introduction of the Dwarves would have been useful as a refresher, it would have been too much to expect them to re-film that scene.

Tauriel I'm 'meh' about till I've actually seen how her role works within the overall bigger picture, though my instinctive reaction has been that she is probably unnecessary...

But the revelation that really sticks in my craw is this:

- When Thorin & co are captured, Thranduil guesses they're going to the Lonely Mountain and will release the dwarves to go on their way, for a promise of a cut of the gold. But Thorin refuses, so he imprisons them.

Yes, I know you think it's all in the spirit of Tolkien because Thranduil is supposed to have somehow guessed they were after the gold in Erebor and that's why he imprisoned them, even though they wouldn't admit it, but there is nothing in TH to say that he ever seriously thought they had a chance of regaining the hoard - I mean would you give 13 Dwarves decent odds against a dragon?

I agree and if you think about it Thranduil imprisons them for trespassing basically which Tolkien wrote about what would have been a medieval time. Trespassing was something in that time that could get you executed, thrown in prison, or a great many nasty thing done to you for doing. Middle earth wasn't the 20th century rules, heck not even the 17th for that matter.... It would only make sense that Thranduil wants to know why they are in his realm, the dwarfs are unwilling to talk so he throws them in jail until they will talk. Which he is not cruel about he says to keep them fed and give them drink and keep them in their cells until they talk, so he didn't mistreat them. and he did nothing out of the ordinary for the time Tolkien was trying to portray. If I were in his shoes I wouldn't have suspected where they were going who would think 13 dwarfs stupid enough to take on a dragon alone? and better yet survive?... I don't think Thranduil thought about the treasure of Erebor until word had reached him of Smaug's death.

from the book WHY Thranduil locks up the dwarfs

"What have we done, O king?" said Balin, who was the eldest left. "Is it a crime to be lost in the forest, to be hungry and thirsty, to be trapped by spiders? Are the spiders your tame beasts or your pets, if killing them makes you angry?"

Such a question made the king angrier than ever, and he answered; it is a crime to wander in my realm without leave. Do you forget that you were in my kingdom, using roads my people made? Did you not three times pursue and trouble my people in the forest and rouse the spiders with your riot and clamour? After all the disturbance you have made I have a right to know what brings you here, and if you will not tell me now, I will keep you all in prison until you have learned sense and manners!"

Then he ordered the dwarves each to be put in a separate cell and to be given food and drink, but not to be allowed to pass the doors of their little prisons, until one at least of them was willing to tell him all he wanted to know. But he did not tell them that Thorin was also a prisoner with him. It was Bilbo who found that out. (page 185 in my 66 hardcover)

[Elentári]

The other point is that yes, Thranduil does later announce

"Very well! We'll see! No treasure will come back through Mirkwood without my having something to say in the matter.

when words of the Dwarves Quest does finally reach him from the Raft Elves who have seen Thorin announce his business in Laketown. However that pronouncement is followed in his next breath by doubt that the Dwarves would survive the attempt:

"But I expect they will all come to a bad end, and serve them right!"

So Jackson and co have taken a statement of intent should certain events should come to pass, and are passing it off as a reality at a different time in the story.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

We don't know yet what Jackson and company have done. I've seen many a statement like that in pre-released marketing books that turned out to have only a passing resemblance to what the film actually contains.

Maybe it is even worse than y'all are imagining!

[sinister71]

We don't know yet what Jackson and company have done. I've seen many a statement like that in pre-released marketing books that turned out to have only a passing resemblance to what the film actually contains.

Maybe it is even worse than y'all are imagining!

it could be but from everything we have seen so far it isn't the Hobbit really anymore. IMO

[Passdagas the Brown]

We don't know yet what Jackson and company have done. I've seen many a statement like that in pre-released marketing books that turned out to have only a passing resemblance to what the film actually contains.

Maybe it is even worse than y'all are imagining!

My new MO is to assume a high probability that what actually happens in the films will be far worse than my speculation.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

DanielLB at TORN notes that a new a new Yahtzee game to tie in with the release of The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug contains the following information:

THE HOBBIT: THE DESOLATION OF SMAUG™ Collector’s Edition of YAHZTEE® includes a replica of the goblet BILBO BAGGINS™ successfully burgled from SMAUG™ the Dragon that serves as the dice shaker.

https://www.usaopoly.com/games/yahtzee- ... rs-edition

This would suggest that previous speculation that the cup would be eliminated and replaced by the Arkenstone is untrue.

Edit: Looking at it closer, I see that the dice have pictures of sting, the key, the Ring, a spider, and ... Smaug?

Second edit: DwellerinDale notes that if you look closely at the scorecard, No. 2 (the one that is not visible on the dice), looks like it says "Arkenstone".

[sinister71]

This would suggest that previous speculation that the cup would be eliminated and replaced by the Arkenstone is untrue.

well there's some good news at least

[Elentári]

Cool...I guess the Smaug design is probably based on JRRT's own dragon sketch found on Thror's map, or similar, as it's hard to see clearly. The cup looks a bit tacky, though!

I love these sorts of tie-in games...great family fun

[Voronwë the Faithful]

It does appear to be Tolkien's own dragon sketch, which I guess does appear in the film on the map, doesn't it? The key seems to be consistent with the key that Gandalf presented to Thorin. Who knows what the Arkenstone (if that really is the other side of the dice is) looks like?

I agree the cup looks a little tacky, but hopefully it will look better in the film (even if this is based on what appears in the film).

[Voronwë the Faithful]

It looks like the marketing is going to ramp up soon. In the course of wonderfully acerbic rant about journalists, Stephen Fry let this out:

When I do a The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug press junket next week, for example, I will do no print media

http://stephen-fry-me.tumblr.com/post/6 ... to-give-up

[Alatar]

About time really. The lack of video blogs or even ads for the EE has left the anticipation feeling really flat.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I don't recall there being extensive advertising for the LOTR EE's at this point in the year in 2001-3. But then again, in those years, the theatrical DVD's had just come out the previous month.

[Alatar]

I just mean there's a complete lack of anything.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

The Russian site Henneth-Annun.ru reports that a DoS trailer is coming in early October. There has been previous speculation that it will be with the (reportedly amazingly good) Alfonso Cuarón film "Gravity" which is to be released on October 4. Hopefully the trailer will be out on the internet a couple of days before that.

Here is the discussion about it at IMDb (with a google translation from and link to the original).

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1170358/boa ... /220030392

[Alatar]

Do you mean "Gravity"?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

That's what I said. (How could I make such a mistake?)

Meanwhile, TheHutt (who I believe runs the Henneth-Annun site) says more at TORN, in English:

The new trailer for Desolation of Smaug (Trailer #3) will be premiering beginning of October. I only know about the online premiere, however, I cannot reveal any dates. The date specified for Gravity actually is very close, but not it.

The editing of the trailer is finished; the trailer is now in the process of color grading and Vfx (status info from last Friday). International versions will most likely premiere simultaneously, however, not every of them will be dubbed in time: for the Russian trailer, for example, a subtitled version will be released first.

The contents of the trailer: it is supposed to be all-new (though some shots from the first DOS trailer will be reused). No info on runtime or any other details yet. The title number #3 is because Trailer #2 was just a shorter version of Trailer #1 (like with AUJ, where Trailer #2 (1.1) was just a child-friendly version of Trailer #1).

I cannot tell about if the trailer will be attached to any film, as this is a pure US thing.

PS: The info is coming directly from the Russian distributor of the Hobbit, Karo Film. They proved quite reliable in the past.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I split off the posts about Alfonso Cuarón as alternative director of The Hobbit