Pope attacks Love

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Post by Lurker »

Yes, he is a religious leader and yes the things he says matter what I'm trying to say is this statement is not "news" to most people I think unlike the one about the Muslims. In fact, the papers and TV news programmes here didn't pick it up. From the time he was elected we (Catholics) knew he is tougher than JPII, it's not newsworthy.
elfshadow wrote:
Lurker wrote:Don't get me wrong I'm not saying homosexual love is not true love in my post, I'm just stating what I think the Pope is trying to convey.
Does that mean that when the Pope talked about love, he was talking about it in sexual instances only? Or was he talking about love as in human love? If only homosexual sex is a sin, then how would the loving bond that two people of the same sex share be weak and deviant? If they were not having sex, would it be viewed any differently by the Church? If so, why use the term "love" if it were only the act of sex that was considered "weak and deviant"? Like I said in my last post, this speech seems to go so much deeper than simply condemning homosexual acts. It's condemning homosexual love as well.
No, he was talking about human love. Like I said he is trying to convey that homosexual love is similar to "temptation" cause the Catholic Church doesn't recognize polygamy and homosexuality. I think what he is trying to say is you can "control" these urges of loving a person of the same sex, you know "temptation" that's why this love is weak and deviant. The Catholic Church sees homosexuality as a "lifestyle" not "true love" in the sense of like I said husband and wife.

I have to reiterate being a homosexual is not a sin in itself, the act of homosexuality is I think the sin. In fact, my wife's dance partner is gay, and he tells us, "Yes, I'm gay and proud of it. I'm not looking for a life partner, I have choosen the path of single blessedness."
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Post by nerdanel »

elsha --

I think that the Pope is condemning "homosexual love" that is based on a relationship that also includes "homosexual acts." That is - I don't think that he is condemning same-sex brotherly or sisterly love, or the love between two friends of the same sex. I do think that he might also be including same-sex romantic love in a non-consummated relationship, but those relationships are very rare, though they do happen. So same-sex romantic love is "weak and deviant" relative to opposite-sex love, and that is probably because (1) most same-sex romantic relationships include a physical component, which is deemed sinful and (2) "God" "intended" for us all to conform to a heterosexual romantic model. (This, of course, means either that (1) homosexuals were created heterosexual by God and are just really, really, really confused or (2) homosexuals were created homosexual by God, who desires for us to live celibate, sexually unfulfilled lives and - AND! - never to experience "even" the "weak and deviant" shadow of same-sex romantic love.) Let me be frank: if I believed #2 even for a second, I would commit suicide today. Unfortunately, there are others who DO believe the Pope and who DO kill themselves out of despair. There are others who do not kill themselves but go to every extreme imaginable to get rid of how they feel, from electroshock therapy to cutting into their own flesh.

That is why I believe that the Pope's message of "love" is actually one of great hatred. I understand that that is an incendiary statement to make (though surely no more incendiary than the Pope's statement to which it responds), and I appreciate Voronwë's admonition to all of us to select words carefully. But I cannot find weaker words to express the reality of it.

I wanted to explain something I wrote yesterday, when I said "..gay love can be and is a mirror or true image of God's love..." Although I've been attending synagogue regularly for the past three months or so, I still am agnostic, as is clear from some of my posts. So it could seem that a statement like yesterday's from me is facetious. I wanted to explain that because I go to a synagogue that is GLBT-majority and I'm otherwise involved in the GLBT community in San Francisco, I know a lot of gay couples, including many who have been partnered, and should have been married, for 15-40 years. They've been through a lot, gays from those older generations - from family, from (former) friends, from the government, at their jobs, from all angles. In so many ways, it would've been easier for them just to do something else - to be single or to pretend to be straight. But they didn't. Y'know why? Because, despite the lack of societal support, despite the lack of legal recognition, despite the ostracism that many experienced from their biological families, they had each other. And for them, that outweighed all the rest. When you look into the eyes of people who have weathered all of that, in addition to the normal day-to-day challenges of making a relationship work, and you see their love for each other -- if there is a God, these couples reflect Him/Her. And if there is none, well then the force of Love that is evident in their lives is just about the highest force I know of in this world. So I did not mean my comment facetiously, and I hope that no one took it that way.

I think that one would have to speak from a place of profound ignorance -- ignorance of the loving bond these couples share, and the fortitude it has taken to maintain it in a world that has so intensely condemned it -- to label them, or to label their love, weak. And when I think through it that way, I actually feel somewhat sorry for the Pope, that he has not been privileged to have that knowledge or that experience. I feel sorry, because I think it would be impossible to follow Jesus' commandment that Anthy described - to love others wholeheartedly - while so hellbent on condemning or demeaning the love of two adult life partners. And it is a shame for the spiritual leader of one billion to himself be laboring under that sort of spiritual restriction. :(
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Post by baby tuckoo »

Right on, Sister!!!!
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Post by Jnyusa »

nel wrote:I think that one would have to speak from a place of profound ignorance -
Well, not to heat up this argument, but ... there is another motivation, you know, which is unpleasant to talk about but unfortunately part of the picture.

The males-only community in which priests study and often live, and the demand for celibacy which makes the absence of female relationships non-suspicious ... these things work in favor of differentially attracting homosexual men to the priesthood. Particularly in the generation before my own, let's say, before it was possible to have both homosexual affiliation and social status, for the man who craved respect and social status but could not imagine himself in a marriage with a woman, which society unfortunately required then for men to be considered 'normal' and 'trustworthy', the priesthood was an attractive compromise. From the scandals that have emerged over the last ten years, we know that this was an issue. It's important to remember, too, that this unfortunate convergence is not the fault of the Catholic Church but the fault of society in its overall treatment of homosexuality, though I think the Church made a huge mistake in not ejecting those priests once they were discovered to be so conflicted.

It may be that the Church is concerned not to reinforce this convergence of priesthood with homosexuality, and I think it probably *would* tend to happen even more often if homosexuality were officially recognized as Godly love.

The kind of considerations and discussions that this should spark are quite different from the ones that are actually taking place, but why should we expect a Pope and a bunch of Bishops to be more wise or more foresighted than any other group of leaders in the world today?

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Post by JewelSong »

A little story.

Two men of my acquaintance. Both gay, at one time partners and lovers. They parted ways for a number of reasons, but remained close and invested in each other.

Fast foward a few years. One of the men discovers he has AIDS. He is dying. The other man quits his job, moves across the country and spends the better part of the year caring for his friend and lover, as he slowly succumbs to AIDS.

Please tell me, Mr. Pope, sir. What part of this Love is weak or deviant?
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Post by Lurker »

I do understand what you are trying to convey Nel in the latter part of your post with regards to loving one another while condemning the love of same sex partners. Loving one another is very different from loving your spouse. You do not love your neighbour as much as you love your spuse, right? You can love your spouse, but you can hate everybody else. You are trying to compare apples and oranges here.

He said "mirror of God's love". I don't know if I make sense if I say that Jesus was concieved by a woman, Mary. Jesus didn't jut come out of nowhere, I'm sure God can do that but he didn't. He chose the natural order, right?

Your example of committing suicide or not, mirrors what the Church is trying to convey you can either give in to your "weakness" (weak love or temptation) or you can resist the urge through alternative means say counselling or fear of committing sin.
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Post by elfshadow »

Lurker wrote:No, he was talking about human love. Like I said he is trying to convey that homosexual love is similar to "temptation" cause the Catholic Church doesn't recognize polygamy and homosexuality. I think what he is trying to say is you can "control" these urges of loving a person of the same sex, you know "temptation" that's why this love is weak and deviant. The Catholic Church sees homosexuality as a "lifestyle" not "true love" in the sense of like I said husband and wife.

I have to reiterate being a homosexual is not a sin in itself, the act of homosexuality is I think the sin. In fact, my wife's dance partner is gay, and he tells us, "Yes, I'm gay and proud of it. I'm not looking for a life partner, I have choosen the path of single blessedness."

I think Anthy's response was just about spot-on in portraying how I feel about this. Regardless of whether the act of homosexality is a sin or not, I cannot understand how any kind of love can be called "weak and deviant," particularly by the leader of a faith founded upon the principles of love. I can't imagine Jesus condemning love between homosexuals as "weak and deviant." I can't imagine Jesus declaring any kind of love as "weak and deviant." I believe that love by its very essence cannot be "weak or deviant" at all, and by implying that homosexual love is, to me the Pope is saying that the feelings two homosexuals feel towards each other isn't love at all. And I think we have ample evidence to the contrary. It is degrading and insulting and, yes, hateful to suggest that two homosexuals cannot love in the same way that heterosexuals can. Love is love.

nerdanel wrote:I think that the Pope is condemning "homosexual love" that is based on a relationship that also includes "homosexual acts." That is - I don't think that he is condemning same-sex brotherly or sisterly love, or the love between two friends of the same sex. I do think that he might also be including same-sex romantic love in a non-consummated relationship, but those relationships are very rare, though they do happen. So same-sex romantic love is "weak and deviant" relative to opposite-sex love...

Yes, I probably didn't make it clear enough in my post that I was only talking about same sex relationships in a romantic sense, not in a platonic sense. It just seemed to me that by using the term "love," the Pope was not referring to just the act of homosexual sex, but the entire relationship and all of the feelings of love that go along with it. He was condemning homosexual love based on the "sinful" acts that accompany it. But I hope it doesn't sound like I'm disagreeing with you in any way, because I agree with your post absolutely and completely. I just don't understand how anyone could view any sort of love as weak or deviant. :(
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Post by Lurker »

JewelSong wrote:A little story.

Two men of my acquaintance. Both gay, at one time partners and lovers. They parted ways for a number of reasons, but remained close and invested in each other.

Fast foward a few years. One of the men discovers he has AIDS. He is dying. The other man quits his job, moves across the country and spends the better part of the year caring for his friend and lover, as he slowly succumbs to AIDS.

Please tell me, Mr. Pope, sir. What part of this Love is weak or deviant?
The part where they became lovers because the church sees it as giving in to the "temptation" of choosing a man as a sexual parter. That's the part the Pope is talking about not the latter about taking care of your friend. :)
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

nerdanel wrote:That is why I believe that the Pope's message of "love" is actually one of great hatred. I understand that that is an incendiary statement to make (though surely no more incendiary than the Pope's statement to which it responds), and I appreciate Voronwë's admonition to all of us to select words carefully. But I cannot find weaker words to express the reality of it.
nel, I have no doubt in my mind that you have followed my advice to consider very carefully what you are saying before posting it. That is all that I can (or wish to) ask. I have no desire to restrict people from expressing their honest feelings about this issue, particularly those who are most closely effected by it (Gays and Lesbians on the one hand, and Catholics on the other).

As for myself, Anthy has already expressed my own feelings on the matter better then I could, so I really have nothing to add.
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Post by Lurker »

elfshadow wrote: I think Anthy's response was just about spot-on in portraying how I feel about this. Regardless of whether the act of homosexality is a sin or not, I cannot understand how any kind of love can be called "weak and deviant," particularly by the leader of a faith founded upon the principles of love. I can't imagine Jesus condemning love between homosexuals as "weak and deviant." I can't imagine Jesus declaring any kind of love as "weak and deviant." I believe that love by its very essence cannot be "weak or deviant" at all, and by implying that homosexual love is, to me the Pope is saying that the feelings two homosexuals feel towards each other isn't love at all. And I think we have ample evidence to the contrary. It is degrading and insulting and, yes, hateful to suggest that two homosexuals cannot love in the same way that heterosexuals can. Love is love.
Love can be defined in different ways. Like I said you can love your spouse but you can condemn everybody else, it's "selfish" love. Will Jesus agree with this kind of love? The Pope says it's weak and deviant because it's born out of temptation, since the church sees homosexuality as a lifestyle or a fad. Anybody here remembers the story of Sodom and Gammora, homosexual sex and polygamy was part of the story, if I remember correctly.

How can you have ample evidence that love between homosexuals in not weak and deviant? Even in heterosexual love, it can be weak and deviant, some people confuse love with lust, love with fear of being alone, love can be for the love of money etc... Go back to my posts, weak and deviant can be defined in many ways, too. This is from a Catholic stand point, you have to read/listen between the lines when the Pope is lecturing, it's not as black and white as everybody seems to think. We do not read the bible by the book our bible study goes beyond that. That is why Mith is suggesting that she would prefer to explain this in a theological way but I guess that would be more confusing. :)
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Post by Lurker »

Jnyusa,

Your post reminds me of my Uncle who doesn't want to send his kids to a boys or girls only school. He said it's a breeding ground for homosexuals. :rofl:

Ok, back to regular discussion.
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Post by Jnyusa »

:rofl:

It happens that both my daughters went to public school, but I wouldn't have declined to send them to an all-girl school for your Uncle's reason.

It's true though that different profession offer opportunity for characteristic personalities, and not all of these personality traits are positive.

My oldest daughter teaches High School, and her classroom was chosen to be filmed for advertising the positive results of a particular government grant they had received. Her classroom was chosen because the students in her classes perform well and behave well. And she told me that this made her feel really good because she actually gives out fewer detentions than any other teacher in the school. The reason behind that is her observation that the students shut down after being punished - whatever happens after that in the classroom is just not heard or absorbed by them. And she hasn't lost sight of the primary goal, which is to get the students to actually learn the material. So she rarely uses negative reinforcements like detentions but piles on the positive reinforcements with a lot of praise for right answers and very careful group-referential admonitions for disruptive behavior. I can imagine this not working for students with serious behavioral problems, but most of the time it does work, and now she's received very public acknowledgment of her success. :love:

So we got to talking about why detentions and short-tempered responses are more common in the other classrooms; and I told my daughter that there are certainly people who are attracted to her profession because it provides opportunity to have complete power over someone else's self-esteem. I see this even at the university level, where teaching is supposed to be secondary to research, but the power that a professor holds over his/her students is like a cocaine high to some of these people. They humiliate the students for wrong answers, they threaten them with failure, and generally care less about the kids learning than they care about seeing thirty people sit at attention in fear of what will happen next and parrot everything that comes out of the professor's mouth. Yes, it happens.

The mental health professions attract people who are crazy. I do believe this is true ... they see it as an opportunity for self-discovery, and the licensing requirements are so lax that people who are truly disturbed themselves in some cases are inflicted upon others to analyze their problems. We talk all the time about transference by the patients but we're not so eager to talk about transference by the psychologist, and I suspect that the latter is a much larger problem.

So it's not that the priesthood breeds homosexuality (!) but that, in earlier generations at least, the priesthood offered a man opportunity to conceal his homosexuality, and it was attractive to a certain kind of person, I think, for that reason. It is obviously in the interest of the Church to avoid this kind of dynamic.

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Post by elfshadow »

Lurker wrote:Love can be defined in different ways. Like I said you can love your spouse but you can condemn everybody else, it's "selfish" love. Will Jesus agree with this kind of love? The Pope says it's weak and deviant because it's born out of temptation, since the church sees homosexuality as a lifestyle or a fad. Anybody here remembers the story of Sodom and Gammora, homosexual sex and polygamy was part of the story, if I remember correctly.
Jesus says that we should love everyone, so I would imagine that what Jesus would disagree with was not the fact that you loved your spouse, but the fact that you didn't love everyone else. He would not be condemning love but the lack of love. I believe that love can be nothing but good. I guess that's where the Pope and I fundamentally disagree.
How can you have ample evidence that love between homosexuals in not weak and deviant? Even in heterosexual love, it can be weak and deviant, some people confuse love with lust, love with fear of being alone, love can be for the love of money etc... Go back to my posts, weak and deviant can be defined in many ways, too.
Perhaps I should be clearer what I mean by love. I do not mean lust, I do not mean fear of being alone, I do not mean greed. Those things are not love. True love can never be weak and deviant. It is the strongest bond that humans have between each other. I see no way in which true love (in the romantic sense) could be different between a woman and a woman, a man and a man, or a man and a woman. What place has anyone, even the Pope, to say that the romantic feelings two people have towards each other are not authentic love, just because they are the same gender?
This is from a Catholic stand point, you have to read/listen between the lines when the Pope is lecturing, it's not as black and white as everybody seems to think. We do not read the bible by the book our bible study goes beyond that. That is why Mith is suggesting that she would prefer to explain this in a theological way but I guess that would be more confusing. :)
Actually, no, I would be very interested to hear the theological way of explaining this. :) I am not Catholic and I cannot look at the Pope's speech from the point of view of a Catholic, but there's no reason I shouldn't try. I would very much like to see a theological explanation.
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Post by Lurker »

Elfshadow,

Love can't always be a good thing, you know. You can commit sin or a criminal act because of love. Yes, Jesus said love one another, he didn't say it to literally mean in a "romantic context", the better word is "take care of one another". Thus, you can't conclude that Jesus would have accepted homosexual love if he was presented with the opportunity to preach about it. Jesus accepted the sinner, he condemns the sin. What Jesus said about loving one another is irrelevant in this discussion.
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Post by elfshadow »

Yes, you can sin because of love. But that doesn't make love itself sinful. You can commit "weak and deviant" acts in the name of love, but that does not mean that love is "weak and deviant". And I realize that romantic love is only a part of love, but that also means that taking care of one another is a part of romantic love. It's still love. I think that Jesus would have accepted all love. I just cannot see love as a sin.
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Post by vison »

nel, I agree with you.

Jnyusa, excellent posts, as usual.

I'm not about to say more since I would be bound to offend someone.
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Post by MithLuin »

Yes, love can be twisted and disturbed. To take this to the realm of fiction: anyone who was ever made to read Wuthering Heights knows that Heathcliff was bad news ;). You can claim that disturbed relationships lack love....or you could say that there is present both love and....something else, something darker.

I think that love is one of the trickiest words in the English language - it can mean so many different things, and is very difficult to talk about. Wonderful, of course - but hard to articulate.

Love can mean sex - there's a reason that is called "making love." The physical component of love isn't "just" sex - sex isn't the disowned relative of love or something. I don't recall the Catechism using the word sex very often (if at all). It does use the term "conjugal love."

Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church defines marriage:
"The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament."
I don't think it terribly surprising that the pope would label a homosexual union "weak and deviant" when compared to this definition.

I do not know anyone who thinks of couples as "very loving people who just happen to have sex." I mean...sex is part of being a couple. The pope's comment was not narrowing in on a particular aspect of the relationship - he was stating that the relationship of homosexual couples is not (and cannot be) marriage. He was not denying that gay couples can be (and in fact are) loving towards one another.

What is "deviant" about the love is that it is not considered a good thing to lead someone into sin. This goes for any sin. I have a responsibility for my students - if any of my words or actions (and in particular, my example) leads them into sin, I am responsible. So why isn't the pope reminding me of this? My family, the school, and the kid's parents do a good job of recognizing this responsibility. It is commonly recognized. A loving, commited couple who lives together without benefit of marriage is not held up by the Church as an example of God's love. They may be very caring and commited people (they aren't "bad" for doing so)....but they are not living out a marriage covenant, either.



nel mentioned earlier that she would not want a life in which she was asked to deny herself. While I agree - no one should have to hide behind false faces - it is also one of the points of a Christian life to deny yourself. Jesus tells us repeatedly to die to ourselves. We are reminded in Church: "in Baptism you died with Christ." We are to take up our cross daily. What is the point of all this? Self-flagellation? Erasing the best part of who we are? No. The idea is that the only way to become our true selves is to deny who we are now, and turn our lives over to God, who will make us who we are born to be. I know that sounds contradictory, but it is denial that leads to peace and freedom. This is a very Christian idea, but I know people of other faiths have something similar.

I am not relating this to the experience of being homosexual. (What would I know of that?) I just thought it would be good to mention that the call to be a Christian does demand complete self-denial. Very few people live it - but that is what is expected of us. It is not "easy" for anyone.




As for what issues are most pertinent when dealing with sex in our world - divorce and the disintegration of family life is a very high priority. The pope spends much more time on that than on the occasional reminder that Catholics do not accept the sanctity of same-sex unions.
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Post by nerdanel »

Well, I just had a very interesting experience. After posting this morning, I spent the better part of the day drinking tea and talking with a new potential friend. By the labels, I suspect that she is someone who is perhaps a rare find outside of San Francisco - a Hispanic, first-generation American, MTF (transgender) convert to Judaism who is Orthodox in her observance.

Actually, she's a pretty rare find in San Francisco, for that matter. :D

She has chosen to share her story freely and has allowed others to discuss it amongst themselves, so this post does not represent a violation of her confidence. However, because I'm referencing trans issues (something that I've observed that many members of TORC/b77/HoF have little firsthand knowledge of), I ask that you be respectful. In particular, understand that for an individual to transition genders is not the same thing as the sexual fetish of transvestism, or a lark, but rather a serious transition that takes years, tens of thousands of dollars, and the medical input of multiple doctors and psychologists.

In any case, before reaching a place financially/situationally that she could complete her gender transition, she identified (as a compromise) as a gay male for many years. She (then identifying as he) and her male partner were and still are Orthodox; they accepted as binding the Torah's prohibition on male homosexual sex. In the apparent interest of erring on the cautious side, they continue to accept it even though she has now surgically transitioned.

This was my first discussion with someone who identifies as some variant of GLBT who is partnered, YET chooses to refrain from sexual intimacy because of religious beliefs. I couldn't help thinking how ironic the encounter was, just as we here on HoF are engaged in this dialogue. Although my mind was swirling at the time, I think I can now articulate the following thoughts:

1. It struck me as the right decision for her. There was no angst, no tortured self-denial. Rather, her partner and she reached the decision that the best way to remain true to their commitments to each other and to their faith was to love each other without physically expressing that love - and to hear her talk about it, they do not seem to feel that they are missing anything.

2. It also struck me how different her expression of religious faith was, from the others who express similar beliefs. Normally when I encounter people who share her view, they are heterosexuals presuming to tell me which principles I must live by in order not to "sin in God's eyes"; conveniently, these principles have no application to the declarants' own lives. In contrast, this woman spoke only about how her interpretation of Torah applied to her own life. She chooses to attend a congregation in which liberal gay and lesbian (and heterosexual) Jews interpret the Torah and apply it to their lives very differently than she does to hers. But there was no note of condemnation in her voice, no conclusory note that they (or more accurately, we) are sinning, no insistence that her interpretation of Torah was exclusively correct or must needs be binding on our lives. It struck me that I found, today, the true meaning of religious tolerance - that we could respect each other's divergent interpretations of Torah because neither of us believed that the other person should live by our interpretation.*

I have often fought with people on these boards before about the (non-liberal) Christian insistence on labeling same-sex intimacy sinful. Having had this experience today, I find that I am bored with that argument. If you are a gay religious person who, in applying the Bible (or other religious book) to your life, has concluded that it proscribes you from engaging in same-sex intimacy, then I am interested in discussing further with you. If you are a straight religious person who is interested in applying the Bible to the sexual or romantic lives of other people, then you are going to have to find some other people who are willing to proffer their lives for that purpose. I will remain interested in hearing your application of the Bible to your own lives, but not to mine (or any other gay person's). I believe this is in keeping with Jesus' directive for each person to consider the log in their own eye before the speck in their neighbor's (if indeed there is a speck in this case).

Finally, I want to say a few words on my view of self-denial. Mith mentions that self-denial is part of a Christian life. I know this will come as a big surprise because I so very rarely mention it :P - but it turns out that I am not Christian. And here, it is important to mention because it means a fundamental difference in worldview.

Spiritually right now, I identify as a possibly-transitioning agnostic. But in keeping with modern Jewry, I do not intend ever to put my faith in any one conception of the afterlife. I do not accept that there categorically is a "World to Come," but I accept the possibility that there might be. All that I know that I have is my time here on Earth. If there is a Creator, then that time is potentially God-given. Without the "guarantee" of an afterlife, all I have is the admonition that JS has in her signature: "Live! Live! Live! Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death!"

My sexuality, like most people's, is connected to both my physical and spiritual identities. I think of this as my "lowest" and "highest" needs - not because physical needs are "low" in the sense of base or crass, but because they are more closely tied to our animal nature, where spiritual needs are more closely tied to something (if anything :)) higher than ourselves. On one hand, my sexuality informs what gives me physical satisfaction. On the other hand, it informs how I am predisposed to love, to form relationships, goodness willing, one day to find my soulmate. I know people - a very few, fortunate people - of all different sexual orientations who are blessed enough to be fulfilled in these two ways, physically and spiritually, by their soulmates. That's breathtakingly rare...but for those who are lucky enough to have found it, it brings so much meaning and joy to their lives.

It seems both preposterous and outrageous - nay, sinful - to me that I should deny both my physical and spiritual identities...that I should reject any aspect of the sumptuous "banquet of life" in front of me...that I should refuse the opportunity to connect sexually and romantically if I find my soulmate...that I should be seeking counseling or other "suicide alternatives" that will enable me to deal with a weakness - a weakness! No, I reject that as absurd. My sexuality is not a weakness, Lurker, and I would appreciate it if you show me the respect not to refer to it that way again. (Fewer jokes about "breeding grounds for homosexuals" would also be much appreciated.)

I regard my sexuality as a gift (whether from nature, God, or both), although one that has posed and will pose its fair share of challenges thanks to the prejudices of others. (I am reminded of hearing some Jews joke that they appreciate the "gift" of being the "chosen people," but they wish that God would share that gift around a bit. :P) I do not believe that it is wrong for me to act on it; indeed, I believe it would be wrong for me to refuse this God-or-nature-given gift...to repress and deny myself...to turn down the offered banquet of life. You see, in addition to my genuine belief that God does not proscribe intimacy between consenting adults, I also cannot rely on some reward in a supposed afterlife. So, I experience denial as being contrary to the mandate we are given in life, whether from God or nature - to live, to love and to be, according to our natures.

In conclusion, I really need to figure out what I do or don't believe, because it is darn hard to be an agnostic fence-sitter. It gets tiresome typing out all these either/or propositions about God. ;)

*I'm pretty certain that some pronouns in that sentence need to be taken out and shot. :P
I won't just survive
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh

When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise
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Voronwë the Faithful
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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

Thank you for sharing all of that, nel. It does seem serendipitous that you encountered this interesting person just when we were having this discussion here. It is really interesting to me to see you document your continuing exploration, and I greatly appreciate your openness in doing so.

That having been said, allow me one niggle.
you wrote:I have often fought with people on these boards before about the (non-liberal) Christian insistence on labeling same-sex intimacy sinful. Having had this experience today, I find that I am bored with that argument. If you are a gay religious person who, in applying the Bible (or other religious book) to your life, has concluded that it proscribes you from engaging in same-sex intimacy, then I am interested in discussing further with you. If you are a straight religious person who is interested in applying the Bible to the sexual or romantic lives of other people, then you are going to have to find some other people who are willing to proffer their lives for that purpose. I will remain interested in hearing your application of the Bible to your own lives, but not to mine (or any other gay person's).
I believe (and this is of course only my opinion, and you take it for what it is worth) that it is virtually always counter-productive to deny interest in anyone's honestly expressed opinion. There is a big difference between being interested in someone else's opinion, and accepting it as valid for yourself. I always tried to remain interested in other people's opinions, particularly about things that effect me directly, even if their opinions are diametrically opposite from my own. Indeed those are often the ones that I learn the most about my own beliefs from.

And, even if I really am bored by a particular discussion or argument, I try not to say so because, well, I don't think it really serves any productive purpose to do so, and some might consider it just a bit rude.

But as I say, your mileage may vary. :)

I have a couple of interesting transgender stories that I will share at some point (including one that also relates to Judiasm), but I don't think this is the right thread to do so.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Lurker
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Post by Lurker »

nerdanel wrote: My sexuality is not a weakness, Lurker, and I would appreciate it if you show me the respect not to refer to it that way again. (Fewer jokes about "breeding grounds for homosexuals" would also be much appreciated.)
No offense taken. :)
I think I clearly said in my post I do recognize same sex unions and what I'm posting was, I think is the point of view of the Catholic Church or the Pope as I see it. Did I ever mention in my post that I see your sexuality as a weakness? Please don't take it personally, it's just an explanation from a Catholic standpoint.

I didn't mention my personal feelings about this since I do have gay friends who are very religious. That's why I said they have choosen the path of "single blessedness" and we often discuss if the priesthood were open to women, then the Carmelites should allow men, too. ;) You know, equal opportunity.

This thread is not about how I feel about homosexuality in particular or same sex marriage so why the heck should I bring it up. I realized the error of my ways in another thread that posting my "personal opinion" in a discussion will not make me think clearly nor it is productive. I've never been an emotional person in real life, why should I be one on the net. :)
“Lawyers are the only persons in whom ignorance of the law is not punished.” - Jeremy Bentham (1748 - 1832)
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