Right, right. I am just trying to establish how minor and low-powered a deity has to be before an atheist can safely believe in it.Frelga: An atheist can believe in whatever he wants, except a god (because then he's not an atheist anymore). The rules for materialists are a little stricter.
Why I am not a believer
Rodia: You get back here, young person, I like your posts.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
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One is reminded of the old joke about the guy who asked the woman if she would sleep with him for a million bucks, and when she said yes, asked her if she'd sleep with him for ten. When she indignantly asked, "what kind of woman do you think I am?," he replied "we established that already--now we're just negotiating on price."Frelga wrote:I am just trying to establish how minor and low-powered a deity has to be before an atheist can safely believe in it.
Well, it reminded me of the old joke, anyway.
I think once you use the word "deity" you have left the world of atheism. If you allow for any sort of unfalsifiable, you can still be an atheist, but not a strict materialist, as noted above.
I'm a materialist, but I'm more an empiricist. I don't have a philosophical need to disbelieve, in other words, only a lack of need to believe. I don't mind using belief and faith interchangeably in this context, btw, mostly because there is no single word verbal form of "have faith" and I'm all about not typing more than one word.
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Belief is at the root of my whole system of understanding the world. It is at my essence and says "Yes! that fits!". It is always necessary. I am presented with what others believe to be facts, evidence, proof, and knowledge, and have to decide if it fits into the jig-saw puzzle that defines me. I know some people who say they have firm proof that God exists. They believe the proof, so they believe in God. At one time, I had firm belief in God, too, but at some point the belief died out, and I don't have it anymore. I still have belief in lots of other things that I can't see - evolution, continental drift, quarks, the chance of a better tomorrow - but those beliefs could change tomorrow if I was presented with alternative explanations, reviewed them carefully, considered the credibility of the source, and got that "AHA!" feeling that the new explanation fit my world view better.Rodia wrote:... logically it would seem to me that belief is unnecessary in the face of fact backed by evidence, no? With proof, belief turns into simple knowledge.
In the midst of winter, I found there was, within me, an invincible summer. ~ Albert Camus
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Could you spell this out a bit? Are you saying that a "concrete" soul would be perceivable somehow?Dave_LF wrote:Those things are abstract ideas, while a soul, if real, would be concrete.
I won't just survive
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh
When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise
Oh, you will see me thrive
Can't write my story
I'm beyond the archetype
I won't just conform
No matter how you shake my core
'Cause my roots, they run deep, oh
When, when the fire's at my feet again
And the vultures all start circling
They're whispering, "You're out of time,"
But still I rise
This is no mistake, no accident
When you think the final nail is in, think again
Don't be surprised, I will still rise
I know that AHA feeling!
Maybe I just don't think about life and everything often enough to be able to have such a system. I try not to think too much, it hurts. No, seriously.
Thanks guys but I have no idea what else to say or ask here so I'm just going to read for a while until I get bored and then I'll go away.
Maybe I just don't think about life and everything often enough to be able to have such a system. I try not to think too much, it hurts. No, seriously.
Thanks guys but I have no idea what else to say or ask here so I'm just going to read for a while until I get bored and then I'll go away.
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Hm. What do you call a person who believes in demigods but not gods? Like any label, it becomes a word game at some point.Frelga wrote:I am just trying to establish how minor and low-powered a deity has to be before an atheist can safely believe in it.
By concrete I just mean something that exists in the external world. It doesn't necessarily have to be perceivable.nerdanel wrote:Could you spell this out a bit? Are you saying that a "concrete" soul would be perceivable somehow?Dave_LF wrote:Those things are abstract ideas, while a soul, if real, would be concrete.
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Someone earlier in this thread asked, "Well then, what do you believe in?" I just heard a podcast that makes a great start at answering that question. The interview is on Fresh Air (NPR) with Harvard Humanist Chaplain Greg Epstein. He sums up Humanist beliefs as:
Humanism is a progressive, life stance or philosophy of life that, without anything magical or supernatural, affirms our ability and our responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment, aspiring to the greater good of humanity.
And...
Humanism is a bold, resolute response to the fact that being a human being is lonely and frightening. Humanism means taking charge of the often lousy world around us and working to shape it into a better place, though we know we cannot ever finish the task.
The whole interview is well worth listening to:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =121813448
Humanism is a progressive, life stance or philosophy of life that, without anything magical or supernatural, affirms our ability and our responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment, aspiring to the greater good of humanity.
And...
Humanism is a bold, resolute response to the fact that being a human being is lonely and frightening. Humanism means taking charge of the often lousy world around us and working to shape it into a better place, though we know we cannot ever finish the task.
The whole interview is well worth listening to:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =121813448
In the midst of winter, I found there was, within me, an invincible summer. ~ Albert Camus
Well, it's now clear that I am not a humanist. Not by that definition, anyway.narya wrote:Someone earlier in this thread asked, "Well then, what do you believe in?" I just heard a podcast that makes a great start at answering that question. The interview is on Fresh Air (NPR) with Harvard Humanist Chaplain Greg Epstein. He sums up Humanist beliefs as:
Humanism is a progressive, life stance or philosophy of life that, without anything magical or supernatural, affirms our ability and our responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment, aspiring to the greater good of humanity.
And...
Humanism is a bold, resolute response to the fact that being a human being is lonely and frightening. Humanism means taking charge of the often lousy world around us and working to shape it into a better place, though we know we cannot ever finish the task.
The whole interview is well worth listening to:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =121813448
Dig deeper.
I disagree with this. I think it's possible to intellectually give assent to a proposition without really believing it. 'Belief' is a firm conviction about something. So for example, a smoker could intellectually accept the fact that smoking is harmful, but if he really believed it, he would stop (or try to stop) smoking. Belief leads to action; or as they say, we do what we believe. So I'd say belief is something apart from mere intellectual assent.Dave_LF wrote:Belief just means giving assent to a proposition, with or without evidence.
Avatar photo by Richard Lykes, used with permission.
I don't know that belief necessarily leads to action, Cerin. In my observation, many many people do the opposite of what they most sincerely believe which is why I ate all those cookies last night. Action requires will, energy and perseverance, in addition to convictions.Cerin wrote:I disagree with this. I think it's possible to intellectually give assent to a proposition without really believing it. 'Belief' is a firm conviction about something. So for example, a smoker could intellectually accept the fact that smoking is harmful, but if he really believed it, he would stop (or try to stop) smoking. Belief leads to action; or as they say, we do what we believe. So I'd say belief is something apart from mere intellectual assent.
I agree that belief should lead to action. Although so many evil actions have sprung from sincere belief that even that statement is arguable.
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
What is it that you are thinking you most sincerely believed about eating the cookies? I'd suggest (according to the construct I was proposing) that you intellectually assented to the idea that you shouldn't eat the cookies, but that you didn't really believe you shouldn't eat them or that it was bad for you to eat them. According to the way I'm defining 'believe', if you had really believed you shouldn't eat the cookies (that there would be truly negative consequences to doing so), you wouldn't have eaten them.Frelga wrote:In my observation, many many people do the opposite of what they most sincerely believe which is why I ate all those cookies last night.
Leaving aside value judgments about the actions that spring from belief, what use is belief if it doesn't lead to action? I think the concept of simple mental assent isn't terribly consequential or dynamic, whereas I think of belief as something that is consequential and dynamic.I agree that belief should lead to action. Although so many evil actions have sprung from sincere belief that even that statement is arguable.
Avatar photo by Richard Lykes, used with permission.
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The first dictionary definition of "belief" is "assent to a proposition or affirmation, or the acceptance of a fact, opinion, or assertion as real or true, without immediate personal knowledge". So I guess Webster disagrees with both of us.
I don't agree with this. A mind is committee. It is quite possible for the scholars on the committee come to a firm conclusion that the businessmen disregard as a bunch of academic gobbledygook. That doesn't mean the person doesn't believe what he says; it just means his intellect isn't strong enough to overcome his appetites all by itself.Cerin wrote:a smoker could intellectually accept the fact that smoking is harmful, but if he really believed it, he would stop (or try to stop) smoking
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This principle is pretty much the essential fact behind all good fiction, by the way.A mind is committee. It is quite possible for the scholars on the committee come to a firm conclusion that the businessmen disregard as a bunch of academic gobbledygook. That doesn't mean the person doesn't believe what he says; it just means his intellect isn't strong enough to overcome his appetites all by itself.
Less on the subject of religious belief than on... Behaviorial I guess? An article I read the other day mentioned the analogy of a Rider and an Elephant, where the Rider is the rational mind that understands long-term goals and the Elephant is that bunch of reflexes that just wants to feel good now. The Rider may believe - or in my case, know darn well from experience - in a particular course of action, but it's durned hard to steer an Elephant.
Ax, how do you mean?
Ax, how do you mean?
If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life.
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!
I guess it depends where you look it up. I get:Dave_LF wrote:The first dictionary definition of "belief" is "assent to a proposition or affirmation, or the acceptance of a fact, opinion, or assertion as real or true, without immediate personal knowledge". So I guess Webster disagrees with both of us.
1. a state or habit of mind in which trust, confidence, or reliance is placed in some person or thing: FAITH (#2 definitions deal with religion) 3a : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon esp. when based on an examination of the grounds for accepting it as true or real b: a statement or state of affairs on the basis of which one is willing to act 4: immediate assurance or feeling of the reality of something.
What I was getting at is the idea that we have what could be called an intellectual assent that is barely conscious, to all sorts of things and ideas with which we are not actively engaged. I think belief as a concept most often connotes a stronger, more active conviction than that.
I think the fact of overcoming the appetite (in this case a physical addiction) is irrelevant to this example, as long as the attempt to quit is made. If a person sincerely attempts to quit, then I'd say they have a firm conviction about the health risks of smoking. If they don't attempt it, then I'd say they don't have a firm conviction about it, though if asked they would probably mentally assent to the abstract notion that cigarettes are harmful to the health.A mind is committee. It is quite possible for the scholars on the committee come to a firm conclusion that the businessmen disregard as a bunch of academic gobbledygook. That doesn't mean the person doesn't believe what he says; it just means his intellect isn't strong enough to overcome his appetites all by itself.
Or in the terms of your analogy, I guess you're calling the intellect the scholars and the appetite the businessmen (though business decisions are usually made rationally, not on the basis of appetite). What I'm saying is that if the scholars (intellect) and the businessmen (decision makers?) don't agree, then you don't have a firm conviction, or belief. I'd say everyone has to be on board before you have what I'm calling belief.
Avatar photo by Richard Lykes, used with permission.
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Cerin, I'd love to discuss this with you, but I have to go right now, and get in my car, even though I firmly believe that there is a statistical chance it could lead me to my death in a fiery car crash, and that it is contributing to Climate Change, and asthma in local children (including my own). I often bike to work, but today, the spirit was willing but the flesh was weak. Not to mention tired.
In the midst of winter, I found there was, within me, an invincible summer. ~ Albert Camus