Denethor Revisited

[Frelga]

I know that the squirting tomatoes scene was a little dramatic. (And how long WAS that meal, anyway? Those guys got suited up, passed through town, and were out on the fields charging the orcs, and Denethor is STILL eating). But it is a chilling scene, nonetheless. I love how the actual violence is merely implied. Genius.

Genius? I think this is the first time it is my painful duty to say this, but I Disagree with Anthy.

I strongly dislike this scene, because it makes mFaramir a total idiot and worse, a traitor. In the book, he takes on a dangerous but somewhat sensible task of defending the bridges. Here he is leading most of the Gondorian cavalry on a suicide mission, weakening the City defenses and causing deaths of his loyal men, all because Daddy doesn't love him. Really, the insanity must run in the family.

[anthriel]

The genius was in the way the scene was filmed, or edited, I think; the horror of this man sending his son on a suicide mission, juxtaposed with the slightly bored man, just a few minutes later, asking the hobbit if he could sing?

How vain, how cold, how cruel can he really be?

He sits at his bountiful table, and asks to be entertained, while he knows what he has done to his son. He is punishing Faramir because he is not Boromir, I think. "Love" for one son shows up as the selfish malice it truly was.

The line of resigned warriors, traveling through their loved city, following the deranged orders of their mad leader, while those who watch them know they will not come back. The looks on their faces! I cannot imagine.

And that the violence of the slaughter of those doomed warriors was implied, and not explicit; it must have been difficult for PJ to treat this with a light hand, since we all know how much he loves a good bloodbath.

Chilling. <shudder>

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I agree with both of you.

Frelga, I agree that the set-up of Faramir's suicide charge is problematic, and doesn't stand up well to the book. But I completely agree with Anthriel that the scene itself it absolutely brilliantly done, and I feel that it transcends the logical inconsistences.

[Primula Baggins]

We don't know what Gondor's rules about "illegal orders" were, but I suspect that in a world run by absolute monarchs, Faramir would have been condemned as a traitor and probably a coward if he had disobeyed his father. And someone else would have led the same charge.

[axordil]

It bears remembering that, overtly in the film and implied in the book, Faramir has already disobeyed orders by letting the Ring slip through his fingers. He has already lost his brother, whom he was obviously very close to, if very different from...and he knows that his brother died under circumstances that impinge upon his own, certainly in his father's mind.

Dying in combat, especially if it redeems him in Denethor's eyes, can start to look good under those circumstances.

Beyond that, Prim is right: fealty is a bitch. Swearing service "until my death or the world ends" constrains one's actions. Witness Beregond and what he has to go through--and he's not Denethor's son.

[Dân o Nandor on Anduin]

SYMPATHY FOR THE DE... FOR DENETHOR

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Saw many a man's soul and fate
I was 'round when Thorongil
Had his moment of power and fame
Made damn sure that Gandalf
Kept his hands away from me
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game
I stuck around Minas Tirith
When I saw it was a time for a change
Mourn Finduilas and her loneliness
The Shadow came, she died in vain
I sent my heir
To the Valley Fair
When the Ring was found
And they gathered there
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name, oh yeah
Ah, what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah
I know the gleam
That the Kings and Queens
Ruled two-thousand years
For the Gods they feared
I shout out,
"Who killed my eldest son?"
Elves, after all
Saw the deed was done
Let me please introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I lay traps for the Orcs attack
Who’ll get killed before they reached my Gates
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah, get down, baby
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But what's confusing you
Is just the nature of my game
Just as every Elf is an Orc at heart
And all the Balrogs Maiar
As I end this tale
Just call me Denethor
Cause I'm in need of something higher
So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned wizardry
Or I'll see your soul to waste, um yeah
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, um yeah
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, um mean it, get down
Woo, who
Oh yeah, get down
Oh yeah
Oh yeah!
Tell me Gandalf, what's my name
Tell me wizard, can ya guess my name
Tell me Gandalf, what's my name
I tell you one time, you're to blame
Ooo, who
Ooo, who
Ooo, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
I’m on fire!
What's me name
Tell me, Finduilas, what's my name
Tell me, sweetie, what's my name
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
I’m on fire!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Bravo!