SIN!

[JewelSong]

This topic is an off-shoot of a discussion we were having over in the Hannukah thread.

What do you think makes something a "sin?" Are all wrong-doings "sins" or does God or some other Diety have to be involved? Do different religions have different sins, and who decides what is a sin and what isn't?

Can something be "right" and still be a sin? Are there different levels of sin; are some sins worse than others? And how are people punished for their sins?

If you commit a sin unknowingly, is it still a sin?

And once you have sinned, how do you become forgiven and cleansed of the sin?

Any and all opinions welcome!

(and thanks to truehobbit for the idea! )

[Primula Baggins]

We were taught in my church that sin is anything that separates us from God—and that the separation is the consequence of the sin, not its punishment. The separation can be ended by repentance.

This is within my own set of beliefs; I don't offer it a definition to satisfy everybody. But it does answer the question of "unknowing sin," as if you don't know it's wrong it can hardly separate you from God (unless its consequences, such as addiction to a drug you thought was "safe," do so).

Complete forgiveness is always there for the asking. I think it needs to be genuine repentance ("turning"), not mouthing words. Then as far as God is concerned, it is as if the sin never happened; it's forgotten.

(I believe that genuine repentance would have to include doing everything possible to make things right with those who've been hurt by the sin.)

[truehobbit]

Thanks for starting this, Jewel! Like I said, I'm not sure how much I can get involved, but I'll try!

You ask a lot of questions there!

Maybe I should first say that by "sin" I mean a violation of a divine/religious command or expectation.
So, it's not the same as morals or ethics, nor the same as crime or wrongdoing.

By definition this would mean that different religions call different things "sin" (if they use the concept at all).

So, when I talk about it, I mean things that belong to my religious concepts, and as I tend to be a religious person in daily life, the things that I call "moral" are likely to correspond with my religious concepts (though not necessarily 100%).

Hmmh, I guess you can see by now that this is getting complicated, can't you?

However, I think I already answered a few of your questions, so I'll briefly go through the others, too:

I guess that all wrong-doings are also sins, but not all sins are necessarily wrong-doings.

The people who write down religion define sin, I guess, but, ultimately, you decide whether something is a sin for you by accepting or not accepting the teachings other people write down. Something that is not a sin for you, then, might very well be a sin for me.

Of course some sins are worse than others, just like with other kinds of wrong-doing.

And, like I said in the other thread, I think that things can be right on one level and still a sin by definition.

I can't make up my mind about the "unknowing" bit - good question, that!

How to become forgiven? By being sorry and asking to be forgiven, I think.


(Btw, didn't you promise scripture quotes? )

[Alatar]

Sorry to be overly simplistic here, but I have always felt something is only a sin if I believe it to be morally wrong. If the Church tells me something is a sin and I disagree, then I go with my own judgement.

Some call that "a-la-carte religion" but I won't allow someone else to define right and wrong for me, particularly if I disagree with their interpretation.

Contraception is one of the main offenders here.

[nerdanel]

To me, sin connotes violation of the law of a Deity. If you subscribe to a religious faith, then to varying extents you agree to accept that faith's definition of what constitutes sinful behavior (but see Alatar's post for possible evidence to the contrary).

If you choose not to subscribe to any religion, but rather to your own innate spirituality, or nothing at all, then speaking of "sin" seems to have less usefulness, since you are essentially just stating what you perceive to be morally wrong behavior - yours or others.

There is incomplete overlap between morally wrong behavior and sinfulness as I understand it. If your religion requires you to attend a religious feast or holiday and you do not, then it may characterize your behavior as a sin even if you have not committed a morally wrong act. Your behavior may be a sin because you, a member of the religion have committed it, even though it might not be a sin as defined by the religion if a non-member committed it.

Additionally, I think that behavior can be morally right, or even morally imperative, and still be designated a "sin" by many religions. But this is because I think that religions are sometimes incorrect in their designations.

To the extent that sin overlaps with moral wrongs: I think one can do something that is morally wrong, unintentionally. Of course actions intended are normally worse lapses.

As for forgiveness from sins as religiously defined: here, I firmly agree with the Jewish way. Probably most people know of the tradition that on Yom Kippur, one receives forgiveness for sins against God by acknowledging the sins, regretting their commission, and asking for Divine forgiveness. However, for sins against another person, in addition to the above, one must request forgiveness of the person before receiving Divine forgiveness. If the person refuses you once, you must make two more attempts for it to be a good faith effort. I think that this is one of the most true - if most difficult - parts of the religion. As an individual, I don't presume to know declare how God, if one exists, forgives people. However, there is an element to the at-one-ment process that is unfulfilled if you merely feel sorry for your actions and ask for Divine forgiveness, which is easier to ask (done, as it is, in private, before Someone you have at best indirectly wronged and whom you expect to forgive you almost automatically, given the proper contrition).

[Padme]

My opinion of sin. I think only God himself can judge each one of us and our sins, no one else can. I think that to ask for fogiveness from those we sin against is a must, not only for those we hurt but for ourselves and to prove to God we are truely repentant. And we must stick by the repentance, not just give it lip service.

A sin I consider to be something that does keep us away from our spirituality or God. But I also think that people are much harder on themselves than God could ever be. I think people often forget that no matter how badly we 'sin' God still loves us, he might not approve of the sin, but the love of God is unconditional.

And I think that we humans offer up judgement on others far to fast on small sins. We tend to throw stones without knowing the whole story. Only God knows why people do what they do, only God can see into mens hearts and can know why things are done. Now I am not talking about accepting horrible things, I am saying there is a big difference between forgiveness and judgement. We can forgive someone who has wronged us, that is our job, but it is also our job to judge that we not put ourselves in the situation again, it is not our job to judge whether or not the person who wronged us is going to hell. Sadly I see that people either judge others to hell, or judge them to be ok and reinstititute themselves into a bad situation because the offender asked for forgiveness. I hardly ever see, yes I forgive you, but I can no longer be around you because I can not let myself be treated badly. I think God expects us to take care of ourselves and part of that is to know that there are those we can forgive but can not have in our lives any longer.

I know with my mother, I had to forgive her because the issues of my life were being repeated. So I forgave her, but I also know that I can not live around her because to me she is toxic, she drains the life out of me, makes me feel bad about myself, because she feels bad about herself. I can feel sorrow for her, but I can not allow her to do that to me. Is that a sin to do that, in my opinion no, in my opinion I think God would think it was a sin if I let her destroy me again.

I hope this is not too off topic.

[Andri]

I am with Prim on that.

Prim, what Church do you go to?

In the Greek Orthodox tradition, sin is any act that separates the person from God.

From Wikipedia:

Generally speaking, the Orthodox tradition is uncomfortable with any practice which interprets doctrine in "legalistic" terms. Following rules strictly without the heart "being in it" does not help a believer with his salvation. Sin is not about breaking some set of rules; rather, it is the name for any behavior which "misses the mark," that is, moves a believer away from God rather than closer to Him.

Thus, in the Orthodox tradition sin is not viewed as a stain on the soul that needs to be wiped out, but rather as an illness that needs healing. Just like a bodily illness, human sinfulness needs individual attention and correction. The ultimate goal for this process is not to win back God's favor, but rather to get back on the path towards God.

A traditional practice of Orthodox is to have a spiritual father (or mother) to whom one confesses and who treats the sin on an individual basis. An experienced spiritual father will know how and when to apply strictness in dealing with sin and when to administer mercy.

But I think that Prim said the same thing, only better.

You can find the article here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_C ... redemption

[Primula Baggins]

Andri, I'm a Lutheran. And that article you quoted—much of that sounds very Lutheran to me! I am ashamed to admit that I don't know much about the Orthodox church, other than listening obsessively to its astonishingly beautiful music. Thanks for teaching me something new!

(And welcome to HoF, and congratulations on your marriage!)

[Andri]

(Thanks Prim )

[vison]

" To me, sin connotes violation of the law of a Deity. " tolkienpurist says.

To me, the corollory of that would be that if you don't believe in a Deity, you can't sin, or would have no concept of Sin.

I am not a believer in God, but I believe in Sin, all right. And I think the concept of Sin is one of the causes of a belief in God, but we won't get into that.

Sin is the deliberate causing of pain, or is a harmfully intended destructive act. That's a kind of ballpark definition, to me, and close enough for the boys I go out with.

Forgiveness and repentance are two sides of the same coin to me, and both are necessary and right to achieve a good life. I don't need God's forgiveness, since I don't believe in God, but I need the forgiveness of those I hurt, and I need to forgive those who hurt me.

[anthriel]

Well, we sure could get into a talk about forgiveness, too.



What a great thread! I wish I didn't have to make dinner and do the homework thing with the kids right now, because I really want to be selfish and participate in this discussion right now.

Is that a sin?

<worries>




Actually, I believe in EXACTLY what Prim wrote: that a sin is anything that separates us from God.

One of the things our pastor says is that if you find that you and God are far apart, it is not He who has moved.





Andri, I didn't know you had just married! Congratulations!




Edit: WHAT?

No "" emoticon here?

How can I be expected to function???

[Voronwë the Faithful]

For you, Anthy, anything is possible.

[Primula Baggins]

Edit: WHAT?

No "" emoticon here?

How can I be expected to function???

Egad! We can't have that!

*ting*

Now Anthy can function here!

[Primula Baggins]

Oh great.

Sorry, Voronwë. . . .

[IE]

Ready for something off the wall? This is what comes of being a very spiritually conflicted person. Rather, a religiously conflicted person. My spirit's got it down ok but my religious views are, well, weird.

Religions' definition of sin: anything that one's God says is bad. However, if your god says that you should go to war against that person and kill them, then it's not a sin.

My own operating version: anything I do that may hurt any person, directly or indirectly.

*Any person, that includes something that hurts only me*

Under this definition, killing another person would be a sin, no matter what any God might say.

I think we all sin many times, against ourselves and against others. There are two parties that we may need to ask forgiveness from: the one wronged (even ourselves, which can be very hard), and our God. I do not believe that one human can tell another that they've sinned nor weigh their sins against others. I do not want to be the person who decides which sin is greatest; I could never make such a call.

When it comes to sin, I try to worry about what's between me and God and let others worry about themselves. I've been involved in religions that were very judgemental; they claimed that our only confessor was Jesus yet presumed to condemn at the same time. That doesn't work for me or my concepts, so off I had to go.

[Jnyusa]

IE,

that doesn't sound conflicted to me at all.

What sounds conflicted to me is when religious leaders tell us that God wants us to kill, or that killing in the name of God is all right (as long as you're killing the 'right' people).

Jn

[Cerin]

Sin is the deliberate causing of pain, or is a harmfully intended destructive act. That's a kind of ballpark definition, to me, and close enough for the boys I go out with.

Forgiveness and repentance are two sides of the same coin to me, and both are necessary and right to achieve a good life. I don't need God's forgiveness, since I don't believe in God, but I need the forgiveness of those I hurt, and I need to forgive those who hurt me.

How about if you hurt someone unintentionally, or are hurt by someone unintentionally? Do you also need their forgiveness, and do you need to forgive them? Is there something to forgive? How does that relate to sin? Is there always sin when forgiveness is involved?

Sorry to be overly simplistic here, but I have always felt something is only a sin if I believe it to be morally wrong.

This is interesting. It's sort of the opposite of part of a Bible verse that has always intrigued me, Rom. 14:23. Paul is talking here about love, and he uses the example of eating meat sacrificed to idols. Some believers believed all things were clean for them to eat, others did not feel they should eat this meat. Paul admonished that those who believed all things were clean should not argue with those who didn't, or try to convince them to eat, or judge them for not eating, or make an issue of it with them because if they ate believing it was sin, then it was. The chapter ends with this:

But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

So getting back to what Alatar said, I think we do indeed sin if we do something that is wrong in God's sight (that separates us from God), even if we don't think it is wrong; and apparently, we also sin if we do something that we think is wrong in God's sight, even if it isn't.

[vison]

One way of looking at forgiveness is as a kind of super-lubricant that helps the wheels of life go around more smoothly.

Is there always sin[/] where forgiveness is involved? Well, yes, I guess there is. "The deliberate causing of pain" or "harmfully intended destructive acts" are clearly sinful in my mind. As for the "unintended", well, they can rankle and fester as well as the intended and forgiveness is, if nothing else, a kind of clearing the air. It's self-destructive and corrosive to carry resentment and anger about, and it's always best to cast them off.

I do think there are "major" sins and "minor" sins, though. And I also think that there are some awfully touchy people in this world, people who are "hurt" by every breath of chill air.

[Pearly Di]

After the infamous 'hell' thread I wasn't sure I wanted to go into Jewel's 'sin' thread.

But it's Ash Wednesday today, the beginning of Lent, and I was at a Holy Communion service this lunchtime.

This prayer struck me in particular. Rather than define what I think sin is, and what forgiveness is, I offer this prayer instead:

Most holy and merciful Father, we confess to you, and to one another, and to the whole communion of saints in heaven and on earth, that we have sinned against you by our own fault, in thought, word and deed; by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart, and mind, and strength. We have not loved our neighbours as ourselves. We have not forgiven others, as we have been forgiven. Have mercy on us, Lord.

For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him; as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us. Psalm 103: 11-12

[vison]

Sorry to be overly simplistic here, but I have always felt something is only a sin if I believe it to be morally wrong. If the Church tells me something is a sin and I disagree, then I go with my own judgement.

Some call that "a-la-carte religion" but I won't allow someone else to define right and wrong for me, particularly if I disagree with their interpretation.

Contraception is one of the main offenders here.

Now, this I just do NOT get. Perhaps I have misunderstood you, and if so, I apologize in advance. I understood you to be a Roman Catholic.

If you won't allow someone else to define right and wrong for you, well, isn't that what church doctrine is? Seriously. Isn't part of belonging to, of being a member of, a church, accepting the doctrine as taught?

I DO NOT MEAN to offend you, Alatar, and if I'm mistaken about you being a Roman Catholic then my question is meaningless and again I apologize.