Western Canada For Us (and other hate speech laws)

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nerdanel
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Western Canada For Us (and other hate speech laws)

Post by nerdanel »

Yahoo!News wrote:
EDMONTON (CP) - An Edmonton man is guilty of distributing hate propaganda on the Internet, a Canadian Human Rights Commission tribunal ruled Friday.

The tribunal found that Glenn Bahr operated a website called Western Canada for Us and moderated forums that spread hatred against Jews, mentally disabled people, aboriginals, gays, lesbians, Chinese, Arabs, blacks and other non-whites. The tribunal fined Bahr and the group Western Canada For Us $5,000 each and ordered that they cease posting hate messages on the Internet.

Philippe Dufresne, senior counsel for the commission, said the case was based on a complaint filed by the public.

"We recognize the harm that hate messages can have on Canadian society," Dufresne said from Ottawa.

"The decision is important because it is the latest in a series of consistent tribunal decisions which have found that hate on the Internet will not be tolerated."

If the tribunal's orders are not complied with Bahr could be jailed for contempt of court, he said.

The website and the organization Western Canada for Us was founded by Bahr in Edmonton in January, 2004. The group quickly picked up members in Winnipeg, Vancouver and Red Deer, Alta.

The Edmonton police service's hate crimes unit was involved in the investigation, including conducting a raid on Bahr's home that found white-supremacist literature and Nazi memorabilia.

The Internet forums also spoke of a Jewish-controlled media and a conspiracy against whites.

During the tribunal hearings Bahr said he was promoting free speech and immigration reform.

The tribunal said whether it was political or not, it still amounted to hate propaganda.

During hearings into the case human rights lawyer Richard Warman of Ottawa said in his opening statement that Bahr posted messages that stated gays and lesbians "should be terminated along with retards and any other degenerates that nature would do away with in the wild."

In March 2004, Bahr organized a rally in support of Holocaust denier Ernest Zundel.
Source is here.

So, he doesn't like lesbians, Jews, and non-whites (among many others), and is a Holocaust denier. I don't like him very much. :)

That said, I feel uneasy about "hate speech laws" which criminalize ideas, no matter how reprehensible. In this case, it is hard to judge the defendant because the website has been taken down as of May 2004 (if I knew the original link, I'd pull it off the Internet Archive, but I don't.) Speaking generally, though, I think we go down a very dangerous path when we try to judge which ideas are too offensive or dangerous to be voiced. I would instead prefer that we allow the "marketplace of ideas" naturally to reject this bigoted speech. The only standard for limiting speech that I can articulate that possibly does not send us down the slippery slope of giving preferential treatment to certain ideas, is to ban only speech that advocates violence against any person or group (for instance "terminating...degenerates that nature would do away with in the wild.") This defendant might qualify under that standard.

To switch gears again, though, I often find when I Google this subject that the people who agree with me that suppression of hateful free speech is bad, are often white supremacists, that subset of religious fundamentalists who have extremely pejorative views about faiths other than their own, homophobes, anti-Semites, and people who take a negative (and often eugenically minded) view of the mentally or physically disabled. This is not good company to be keeping.

Moreover, I wonder if there is something disingenuous about my support for the "right" to engage in this sort of "free speech." You see, if there was significant societal support for these hate ideas, I would say that at that point they would need to be limited for the protection of the targeted minorities; anything else would threaten to lead to a second Holocaust (especially when coming from deniers of the first Holocaust, I guess.) So, am I merely saying that these ideas can only compete in the "marketplace of ideas" if they are destined to fail? And if that is the only scenario under which they are entitled to compete, are they not worthy of constitutional protection to begin with?

BTW - this decision is available online, but the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal's website is having some technical problems. I will post the decision, or a link, once it becomes available.

ETA - to change "anti-Semitics" to 'anti-Semites" - oops!
Last edited by nerdanel on Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Aravar »

The reason for the strange bedfellows is that it is those groups who are currently targeted by laws which restrict their free speech. Most people aren't so they aren't as exercised by the question.

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Post by Voronwë the Faithful »

The only standard for limiting speech that I can articulate that possibly does not send us down the slippery slope of giving preferential treatment to certain ideas, is to ban only speech that advocates violence against any person or group
:agree:
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Post by vison »

As a Canadian, I am really troubled by such a decision. I think our "hate speech" laws are a mistake. I understand the intention behind them, but you know what that road to Hell is paved with.

So now we must imagine that I have become Prime Minister of Canada: I want these laws off the books. Think of the uproar! "PM Vison thinks hate speech OK!"

So often an attempt to "solve" a problem leads to worse problems.

I recall the Ernst Zundel trial. The court very foolishly allowed the trial to turn into a "prove that the Holocaust really happened" circus. He should never have been prosecuted. He is a vile anti-Semite, but by giving him a platform to speak from, the stupid law only gave him a wider audience.
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Post by yovargas »

Voronwë_the_Faithful wrote:
The only standard for limiting speech that I can articulate that possibly does not send us down the slippery slope of giving preferential treatment to certain ideas, is to ban only speech that advocates violence against any person or group
:agree:

:agree: some more.

In general, the idea of hate crimes strikes me as misguided.
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Post by MithLuin »

Well, true, most crimes do involve at least some hatred ;).


But, I think it is foolish to ignore such things. There should be ways to "shut down" some organizations. Maybe not legally - maybe just by people protesting enough that they go away. But still - there has to be a line between "anything goes" and "thought police." Honing in on violence (or advocating violence) is one of the safest routes. You are tying the crime to actions (or plans for actions, or promoting of actions), rather than limiting the crime to words. There are lots of vitriolic things on the web - are they all "hate crimes?" Hateful? Sure. But crimes? Well, not really. It's more a forum for sad deluded people....


I can think of many grim, moving ways to "prove" the Holocaust happened. . . but anyway. If someone denies it, they're an idiot, but what harm is there in that? That they might be denying "Never Again" as well? Well, then, when they start planning a Holocaust, nail 'em.


Lord M posted a link in another thread to the thoughts of a man who was executed in Florida for a hate crime - he murdered two people in front of an abortion clinic, because one was an abortionist. Prior to doing this, he had gone on talk shows and voiced his opinion that people should shoot abortionists to save the babies lives. He defended the actions of people who had done so. And eventually - he realized there was a disconnect between his talk and his actions, and so he actually did it. I think that the purpose of hate crime laws is to prevent such crimes. So once the talk turns to "yeah, we should kill them..." it's a crime: plotting a murder, or advocating murder. I imagine the man in question had been arrested for minor violations prior to doing that, but he had probably never tried to shoot someone before. So, they couldn't wait for him to commit a "minor crime" - there should have been a law that allowed him to be prosecuted for saying what he was saying.

Maybe?

I could be wrong - such a law could be abused. There are lots of instances where people say "he should be shot" without meaning it.
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