2020 Presidential Election

[Voronwë the Faithful]

IF the accusations gain weight or more come forward, then the DNC should absolutely say that this candidate is not representative of the party and a different candidate should run as the DNC nominee. We should, in essence, hold our own to the same standard as we hold others.

Absolutely not. If the allegations were sufficiently credible, Biden should be pressured to withdraw, the way that Al Franken was pressured to resign. In that case, the party would need to choose a different candidate, and much as I dislike him personally, that candidate should be Bernie Sanders because he then would be the candidate who received the most votes and the most delegates, other than the one who was forced to withdraw.

No, the selection process is not pure democracy, but thankfully it is much more democratic than it used to be. I for one am thankful for that. Even when the process does not result in the candidate that I prefer.

[elengil]

I'm coming from the stance that the parties themselves are largely undemocratic and suppress choices in candidates and artificially narrow the viable pool to the two party system - regardless of which parties those are. So I suppose I don't care much if parties are 'more democratic' than they used to be, I wish they'd be gotten rid of entirely.

[River]

My HS history teacher said once that the Founding Fathers didn't actually want political parties to exist. But that was never going to happen. Political parties came with the colonists and no one ever shook free.

[yovargas]

I wonder if most Democrats would agree with me that saying that this idea - that any single act sexual misconduct of almost any level of severity at literally any point in your life should disqualify you from holding any position of authority forever and ever - is rather absurd.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Phrased like that (particularly the "of almost any level of severity" part), I agree. For instance, I don't think that Tara Reade's original accusation should be disqualifying, even if it is true. If I thought her new accusation (which apparently she is now backing away from) were true, I would consider it disqualifying.

[River]

I would. The act needs to be addressed and if there's a pattern there's a problem. People screw up. If they pay the price and straighten up, that's the end of it. If they keep doing the same thing over and over and are allowed to keep getting away with it because reasons, that's something else. With public figures there can be further issues because false claims are, in fact, a thing. That does not, of course, make all claims false.

I for one am sensing a rather cynical amount of manipulation around Reade's claim. It's been pushed by some rabid Bernie fans and the right. The right's trying to weaponize the Me Too movement. The Bernie fans are trying to subvert the will of primary voters. Reade's claims are pretty weak and she's the only one coming forward with anything beyond "He got huggy but it wasn't sexual". Meanwhile, there's a man in the White House no one seems able or willing to do anything about who's been accused of assault by numerous women, rape by at least one, ho's been proven to have paid hush money to porn stars, who's been linked to Epstein, and who was known among his peers in NYC for being pretty gross around women. So if y'all want to hang up Biden from the highest possible tree, can we please fire the President first?

[yovargas]

Meanwhile, there's a man in the White House no one seems able or willing to do anything about who's been accused of assault by numerous women, rape by at least one, ho's been proven to have paid hush money to porn stars, who's been linked to Epstein, and who was known among his peers in NYC for being pretty gross around women. So if y'all want to hang up Biden from the highest possible tree, can we please fire the President first?

It's so wild to think that you can make a list like that and leave off "I grab women by the p***y and get away with it", like if there's just so many damn things to list that it's easy to forget all of it.

[River]

It's worse than that, yov. I did not forget "grab 'em by the pussy". I just decided to keep the list on the shorter side and therefore triaged the incidents. The POTUS is a pervert, guys.

[Túrin Turambar]

One of the many bizarre things to come out of the Trump presidency is that he seems to have neutralised a lot of the criticism against him by basically saying "Yeah, I sexually assault women, that's just how I roll" (not initially as a public statement, but it came out in the Access Hollywood tape), leading to a collective shrug and people seeming to say "Ah well, it is what it is".

[Voronwë the Faithful]

From historian Heather Cox Richardson (the best current commentator on U.S. affairs, by far, in my opinion; I highly recommend her daily newsletters posted on Facebook and elsewhere)

First up is the demand coming from the right, as well as from media outlets, to open former Vice President Joe Biden’s personal papers that have been donated to the University of Delaware to search for records that might mention Tara Reade, who has accused Biden of sexually assaulting her 27 years ago. Fox News Channel contributor Ari Fleischer has gone so far as to suggest that Biden should turn the files over to the FBI, the same FBI that is, at this moment, controlled by Trump loyalist Attorney General William Barr.

Biden has called for a thorough search of the National Archives, where such records would be stored, for any materials relating to Reade's claim. But she has now said that any complaint she made did not mention a sexual assault, and she has cancelled a scheduled appearance tomorrow on Chris Wallace’s show on the Fox News Channel. Yet the call to open the University of Delaware files, which are currently scheduled to open two years after Biden leaves public life, continues. Those demanding such action say there might be staff memos in the papers about Reade’s complaint, which contain transcripts of his speeches, records of private conversations with world leaders including Russian President Vladimir Putin, daily schedules, and staff memos from his years as a Senator from 1973 to 2009.

But a senator’s papers would not include any personnel files which would mention an assault claim; personnel files are part of a completely different storage system. And it is 100% normal to close the files of elected officials (and other people, too) for a period of time before they can be examined, and archivists take that charge very seriously indeed because of the ethics involved.

The files will contain the sausage making of various political issues that can be cherrypicked to destroy careers (not just Biden’s). Of course Trump people want to expose everything Biden did as a senator. Media outlets are salivating to get into the papers for their own reasons: can you imagine the stories detailing rivalries from the thirty years Biden was in the Senate? It would rival the hay made off the stolen emails from the Democratic National Committee in 2016 which, after all, revealed nothing illegal, but embarrassed Hillary Clinton and the DNC.
The pressure on Biden to release his papers strikes me as the bad faith use of an important political conversation to score political points. It is vital to uncover the truth of what happened between Biden and Reade, but that’s not what’s going on here. Observers are demanding the release of material that has been donated in good faith for future researchers, to uncover information that we know full well would not be stored there. But it would certainly weaken Biden as a candidate.

At the same time, Trump simply refuses to show anyone anything. Once again, the media is dancing to his tune, making Biden’s reluctance to open his Senate records look nefarious while giving Trump a pass, not just on the women who have accused him of sexual assault, but on issues throughout his administration, issues that we, as citizens, deserve to know.

Where are the tax returns Trump promised to release? Where are the investigations of any of the literally dozens of accusations of rape and sexual assault made against Trump? Where is John Bolton’s book? Why is everyone who worked for Trump bound to secrecy? And key: where are the medical supplies the federal government has seized?

Please follow me here: I am not speaking of the claims of Ms. Reade, which are a separate conversation. I am talking about the use of her story to control our political narrative. The attempt to get Biden to jump through hoops Trump ignores is classic gaslighting. It keeps Biden on the defensive and makes sure he is reinforcing Trump’s narrative, thus strengthening Trump even as Biden tries to carve out his own campaign. It is precisely what the Trump campaign, abetted by the media, did in 2016.

[Dave_LF]

You think Trump is acting crazy now, just wait until it starts to sink in that he's behind

[Sunsilver]

Y'know, if you want to criticize people for not voting, criticize those who are taking away their voting rights.

I've heard a lot about gerrymandering in certain electoral districts, how polling stations are being located so that it's as difficult as possible for blacks and people of colour to vote. In some states, they are even closing the motor vehicle departments, so voters can't get licenses to drive themselves to polling stations, or get a driver's license to use as an I.D.

And, of course, Trump and his cronies don't want 'these people' to be able to vote by mail, either.

What can be done to stop this, other than voting the Republicans out of office? Isn't this illegal?

Sorry, I know I'm going off topic here, but this really bothers me, and as a Canadian, I'm not that familiar with the U.S. electoral system.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Sunny, that is worthwhile topic to discuss, but it needs to be in a different thread than this one, I think.

[Sunsilver]

Sunny, that is worthwhile topic to discuss, but it needs to be in a different thread than this one, I think.

Could we move my question to the election thread maybe?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Yup!

[elengil]

Y'know, if you want to criticize people for not voting, criticize those who are taking away their voting rights.

I've heard a lot about gerrymandering in certain electoral districts, how polling stations are being located so that it's as difficult as possible for blacks and people of colour to vote. In some states, they are even closing the motor vehicle departments, so voters can't get licenses to drive themselves to polling stations, or get a driver's license to use as an I.D.

And, of course, Trump and his cronies don't want 'these people' to be able to vote by mail, either.

What can be done to stop this, other than voting the Republicans out of office? Isn't this illegal?

Sorry, I know I'm going off topic here, but this really bothers me, and as a Canadian, I'm not that familiar with the U.S. electoral system.

That's the problem, a good chunk of the people deciding whether it's illegal are the ones doing it, so of course it isn't. The supreme court decided gerrymandering wasn't illegal if it was just to gain political advantage. I really have no idea how they arrived at THAT conclusion. Voter suppression laws are being repealed left and right. The argument that voter ID requirements or stopping mail-in voting "prevents fraud" is so prevalent when there is zero evidence of mass fraud of any kind, really just another way to suppress votes.

Then you have actual election fraud (not voter) throwing out the ballots you don't want, using known faulty voting systems, sitting back and allowing vote tampering by outside forces (Russia, etc), and other proven ways that the election officials have mishandled things - including the guy who refused to stop overseeing *his own* election that was conveniently being 'rigged' in his favor. Gee. Shocker.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Given where people went with it, I moved my recent post and the responses to the WTF thread.

[River]

I have a terrible, sick feeling this won't be the only time you have to do that before Election Day.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Good news in your state, Rose.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/24/politics ... index.html

[RoseMorninStar]

Good news in your state, Rose.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/24/politics ... index.html

One can hope. I live in a very 'red' area of the state and I'm definitely in the minority. Milwaukee & Madison are reliably blue, but the rest of the state.. I don't know if I trust polling. Our legislature is pretty much a mess too. Gerrymandering leaves the population improperly represented. It's frustrating. While I know many people on the left who supported Sanders, Biden will likely do better here in a contest against Trump.