Jamal Ahmad Khashoggi

[IdylleSeethes]

It is now admitted that members of the Saudi government killed a person the government decided betrayed it. If Salman initiated it, that is probably his right as Crown Prince. If not there already seems to be a list of suspects reaching up to a high level.

Saudi Arabia’s legal system is based on Sharia Law, which bears little semblance to western legal systems. Making it worse is that, although some Islamic countries have codified Sharia Law, Saudi Arabia is just beginning to recognize the importance of codification. A guide was published in January 2018. The concept of precedent, fundamental to some western countries, is absent from Saudi Law. There are many issues not covered by Sharia Law that must be addressed by a modern country. These are controlled by royal decree, as it is the monarchy that ultimately is the law. Allowed Sharia punishments include beheading, amputation, hanging, stoning, and whipping. Punishable offenses we don’t recognize are adultery, witchcraft, homosexuality, and apostasy. Before you choose to impose your rules on Saudi Arabia, imagine them imposing theirs on us.

The Middle East essentially operates under the rules that were in place in Europe when William Wallace was drawn and quartered and eviscerated, while still alive, and then beheaded, in 1305, for treason against King Edward I. This happened not long after Edward I confirmed the Magna Carta as England’s statute law, in 1297. This was also 135 years after Thomas Becket was assassinated, for which the assassin’s suffered no civil punishment.

In light of the fact that what was done was most likely legal and business as usual, the hysteria whipped up by the media seems excessive. Why aren’t we at least as concerned about Chicago teenage athlete Anton Shaw’s death Saturday night? So far as we know, he wasn’t guilty of anything. The reason is that he is not politically useful to the American left. His death is, in fact, a political embarrassment, so you likely haven’t heard of him.

JAK was a journalist. 81 journalists and media workers were killed in 2017. One of them, killed a year ago this past week, was important in the release of the Panama Papers, which had a much larger impact on the world than JAK prior to his death. Do you know her name? The number killed this year will be about the same.

https://cpj.org/data/killed/?status=Kil ... up_by=year

Is this incident, involving someone you likely never heard of before 3 weeks ago, really so important that the nascent attempt to move Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of the 9/11 terrorists and of Al Qaeda, towards western values and to join with the west to attempt peace in the Middle East needs to be aborted? The Middle East has been in turmoil since the fall of the Ottoman Empire 100 years ago. Calming it down would be a good thing from which millions, maybe billions would benefit.

So far as I can tell, media outrage only benefits the American left that looks to successfully abort one of the most important steps in resolving problems in the Middle East in my lifetime. But, it is only collateral damage to them. Its just another way to thwart Trump’s success. By the way, he still seems to be going along with it, in spite of what the media is saying.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/wor ... 719586002/

I sometimes forget some Americans don’t seem to understand presumption of innocence even though it is a fundamental aspect of US law (Coffin v US 1895), included in the UN’s Universal Declaration of Human Rights article 11, and has historical precedents in Roman law and Islamic law. After the fall of the Roman Empire in the 5th century, feudalism did not accept this right, but it was generally restored in Western Europe around the 14th century. I would like to keep it and leave lynch mobs in the past.

[Alatar]

Its worth pointing out that the Global media, not just the "American left", considers this news.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

And that normally reliable GOP allies of Mr. Trump such as Lindsey Graham have also expressed significant concern about the situation.


Saudi crown prince responsible for Khashoggi's killing in 'most brutal way': Lindsey Graham

It is now admitted that members of the Saudi government killed a person the government decided betrayed it. If Salman initiated it, that is probably his right as Crown Prince.

I had to read this three times to make sure that I read it correctly.

[Sunsilver]

Two things are pretty obvious to me:

1) Any investigation is going to absolve those in power of responsibility.

2) Trump/the United States government will believe this because the oil provided by Saudi Arabia, and the money gained through arms sales is more important than alienating the Saudis.

If I were Trump, I'd (reluctantly) take the Saudis at their word, because it's really impossible to obtain poof they are lying. The only way they could positively prove culpability would be if there was video footage of the murder. Heh...good luck finding THAT! I'm sure it's disappeared by now, if it ever existed. And even if it did not disappear, those in power will deny all responsibility, and likely anyone who tried to hold them accountable will be silenced one way or another.

The other thing I'd do if I were Trump is I'd make every effort to reduce the U.S.A's dependence on foreign oil by putting money into alternative sources of energy.

But of course, the Republicans are in bed with the oil, gas and coal industries, so there is little likelihood of that happening. Give what Trump has done so far re. scuttling alternative energy programs, better make that ZERO likelihood!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

The CIA has determined that Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman ordered the killing of Khashoggi.

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1NL2P4

Now the question is whether the Trump administration will accept that conclusion and act accordingly.

Sent from my LG G6 using Tapatalk

[Primula Baggins]

We’ll see *she said morosely*.

[yovargas]

What would "act accordingly" look like in this ugly situation?

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I don't know exactly, but I'm pretty sure it's not this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politi ... en-1000487

Sent from my LG G6 using Tapatalk

[RoseMorninStar]

The CIA has determined that Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman ordered the killing of Khashoggi.

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1NL2P4

Now the question is whether the Trump administration will accept that conclusion and act accordingly.

No. The Trump administration won't. The Saudi's bailed Trump out of his 5th bankruptcy. He's been bought & paid for (compromised). He is their shill for hire (as I suspect with Putin/Russia). It is why the Saudi's know they can be so bold.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

This is an honest-to-goodness real press release, apparently written by Mr. Trump himself.

Office of the Press Secretary
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
November 20, 2018
Statement from President Donald J. Trump on Standing with Saudi Arabia



America First!

The world is a very dangerous place!

The country of Iran, as an example, is responsible for a bloody proxy war against Saudi Arabia in Yemen, trying to destabilize Iraq's fragile attempt at democracy, supporting the terror group Hezbollah in Lebanon, propping up dictator Bashar Assad in Syria (who has killed millions of his own citizens), and much more. Likewise, the Iranians have killed many Americans and other innocent people throughout the Middle East. Iran states openly, and with great force, "Death to America!" and "Death to Israel!" Iran is considered "the world's leading sponsor of terror."

On the other hand, Saudi Arabia would gladly withdraw from Yemen if the Iranians would agree to leave. They would immediately provide desperately needed humanitarian assistance. Additionally, Saudi Arabia has agreed to spend billions of dollars in leading the fight against Radical Islamic Terrorism.

After my heavily negotiated trip to Saudi Arabia last year, the Kingdom agreed to spend and invest $450 billion in the United States. This is a record amount of money. It will create hundreds of thousands of jobs, tremendous economic development, and much additional wealth for the United States. Of the $450 billion, $110 billion will be spent on the purchase of military equipment from Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon and many other great U.S. defense contractors. If we foolishly cancel these contracts, Russia and China would be the enormous beneficiaries - and very happy to acquire all of this newfound business. It would be a wonderful gift to them directly from the United States!

The crime against Jamal Khashoggi was a terrible one, and one that our country does not condone. Indeed, we have taken strong action against those already known to have participated in the murder. After great independent research, we now know many details of this horrible crime. We have already sanctioned 17 Saudis known to have been involved in the murder of Mr. Khashoggi, and the disposal of his body.
Representatives of Saudi Arabia say that Jamal Khashoggi was an "enemy of the state" and a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, but my decision is in no way based on that -- this is an unacceptable and horrible crime. King Salman and Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman vigorously deny any knowledge of the planning or execution of the murder of Mr. Khashoggi. Our intelligence agencies continue to assess all information, but it could very well be that the Crown Prince had knowledge of this tragic event -- maybe he did and maybe he didn't!
That being said, we may never know all of the facts surrounding the murder of Mr. Jamal Khashoggi. In any case, our relationship is with the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. They have been a great ally in our very important fight against Iran. The United States intends to remain a steadfast partner of Saudi Arabia to ensure the interests of our country, Israel and all other partners in the region. It is our paramount goal to fully eliminate the threat of terrorism throughout the world!

I understand there are members of Congress who, for political or other reasons, would like to go in a different direction - and they are free to do so. I will consider whatever ideas are presented to me, but only if they are consistent with the absolute security and safety of America. After the United States, Saudi Arabia is the largest oil producing nation in the world. They have worked closely with us and have been very responsive to my requests to keeping oil prices at reasonable levels -- so important for the world. As President of the United States I intend to ensure that, in a very dangerous world, America is pursuing its national interests and vigorously contesting countries that wish to do us harm. Very simply it is called America First!

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/20/politics ... index.html

[Primula Baggins]

[RoseMorninStar]

'Reality' TV personality doing what 'reality' TV personalities do..

I wish CNN would provide some commentary (fact checking) on that (the mish mash of tweets passing as a 'press release'.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

They have, Rose, but I wanted to give the statement itself, on its own. It is unique in my memory of 40 years or so of observing the US government fairly closely.

Sent from my LG G6 using Tapatalk

[Sunsilver]

I am not surprised. Not at all.

Too many millions of dollars are at stake for one life to matter to Trump.

[RoseMorninStar]

Bolton had some odd comments about the recording of Jamal Khashoggi's death today. Something about not listening to it because he doesn't speak the language. Torture and pain speak a universal language. He was quite belligerent about it. It's a disgrace. A version of 'la-la-la-la-la I can't hear you so it didn't happen'. Pathetic. They all know it happened, they just don't care.

[River]

The weird thing about Bolton's excuse is I'm pretty sure we have people who have very high level security clearances who are also fluent in the dialect of Arabic spoken in Saudi Arabia. Surely he could get one of these people to help him?

[RoseMorninStar]

That is what the reporter pointed out but Bolton had no better excuse. I believe it is a matter of this administration wishing to reinvent what they WANT to believe. ( *I* didn't see it happen, *I* didn't hear it happen, *I* know nothing about it, so we will let it pass).

[N.E. Brigand]

According to new reporting in The Atlantic, Saudi crown prince Mohammed bin Salman ("MBS") has told friends that the murder of Jamal Khashoggi is the "worst thing ever to happen to me" (my emphasis). And he told the Atlantic's reporter that if he had wanted Khashoggi murdered, it would have been better managed.

The reporters says that MBS seemed charming and "non-psychopathic" during their two recent interviews, as long as you ignore what he's actually saying:

Also risible to the crown prince was the notion that his citizens fear speaking out against him. We need dissent, he said, “if it’s objective writing, without any ideological agenda.” In practice, I noted, dissent seemed to be nonexistent. In September 2017, MBS ordered a boycott of Qatar, citing the country’s support for the Iranian government, the Muslim Brotherhood, al‑Qaeda, and other Islamist organizations in the region. His tiny neighbor suddenly transformed from official friend into official villain, and those expressing a kind word toward it disappeared into prison.

These sentiments, apparently, did not count as objective or nonideological. Qatar, MBS said, was comparable to Nazi Germany. “What do you think [would have happened] if someone was praising and trying to push for Hitler in World War II?” he asked. “How would America take that?” Of course Saudis would react strongly to Nazi sympathizers in their midst. Three years later, however, the countries reconciled, and the Saudi government tweeted out a photo of MBS and Hitler—that is, Qatari Emir Tamim Al Thani—wearing board shorts and smiling at MBS’s Red Sea palace. “Sheikh Tamim’s an amazing person,” MBS said. The fight between them had been no big deal, “a fight between brothers.” The relationship is now “better than ever in history.” The dissenters remain in prison, however, and I do not mean the Ritz-Carlton.

The piece goes on to note that under MBS's leadership (though MBS's 86-year-old father King Salman is still in charge, it seems to be understood that MBS can act at will), Saudi Arabia has undergone a number of reforms that perseucted activists previously had called for while the activists themselves remain imprisoned, tortured, or in the case of Khashoggi, murdered. Even though their cause may have been just, in MBS's eyes, by questioning authority, they undermined state security, and that apparently is unforgiveable. Could the activists now be pardoned? At least those who haven't been killed? "'That’s not my power. That’s His Majesty’s power,' MBS said. But, he added, 'no king has ever used' the pardon power, and his father does not intend to be the first."

Still, the crown prince’s argument—that if he extended forgiveness to good people who deserved it, he would have to extend it equally to bad people who did not—struck me as bizarre. Why would one require the other? Then I realized that MBS was not saying that the failure of his plan to remake the kingdom might lead to catastrophe. He was saying that he’d guarantee it would. Many secular Arab leaders before him have made the same dark implication: Support everything I do, or I will let slip the dogs of jihad. This was not an argument. It was a threat.

There's a lot more in that long, fascinating piece. He's going to be king, probably for many decades, he's never going to face justice for the murder of Khashoggi, and there's nothing anyone can do about it except, perhaps, reduce his power somewhat by moving the world past fossil fuels.