The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Here, let me raise your spirits, SV:

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Bilbo plays a major role - check

Thranduil plays a major role - check

Thorin's descent into madness and death and reconciliation with Bilbo well done - check, check, check

Fili and Kili die defending their uncle - check (I think)

Tauriel has an appropriate ending (with a nice softening of Thranduil) - check

The guy hasn't even seen a finished version, so things you don't like, like Dain not becoming king, might be changed before it is finished, if the guy even has really seen anything (which I am almost sure he has). Personally, for me the good far, far outweighs the bad because the important points are checked

One final thing. I really hope that the one thing that is causing the most angst over at the other place is true:

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The suggestion is that Saruman's "leave Sauron to me" is actually the last line of the Dol Guldur storyline. Never would I have thought that these filmmakers would leave that storyline so wonderfully ambiguous, and I really, really hope it is true!

[Dave_LF]

None of the details particularly bother me, and some I find fairly encouraging (for the reasons V outlined above). But I am a bit concerned by his judgement that it's just not a great film. Still, it's one individual's opinion, and his first-viewing opinion at that (we all know how that goes).

This is, at heart, a story about Thorin's fall and redemption contrasted with Bilbo's hobbity sensibilities, and the poster does claim they did a good job with the first half of that. The rest is really just backdrop.

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The suggestion is that Saruman's "leave Sauron to me" is actually the last line of the Dol Guldur storyline. Never would I have thought that these filmmakers would leave that storyline so wonderfully ambiguous, and I really, really hope it is true!

Yes, the dramatic irony there is fantastic, especially if they don't say anything more about it (until FotR)!

[Elentári]

SV, since Connolly was reported recently

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as confirming his character does become King

(well, he could be referring to the book, but supposedly he has never read Tolkien!) then presumably that will be in the EE....

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...along with Thorin's funeral - Orcist may well be returned to him differently, but surely Jackson would want to keep a scene of the Arkenstone being placed on Thorin's breast?

[sauronsfinger]

thanks to all for the spoilers and links to more..... I just read most of it and sounds like the film will not let us down as it sounds like there is tons there to like and revel in ... BUT ..... I dearly hope for thirty or forty minutes more added to the EE so these storylines are given a proper finish. I am in the unusual place of looking more forward to the EE than I am the actual release in a month.

I hope a lot of this is unwarranted.

[Passdagas the Brown]

Wait a second. Is that reviewer implying that we do not see Thorin's funeral? I find that very hard to believe (and we know it was shot on an elaborate set). I hope it's in, as it has the potential to be very evocative.

IMO, the criticisms of this person do seem to suggest that there's an almost arbitrary attempt to make this film shorter than the others, and that this may have hurt it. I hope to be proven wrong, but this first review is by no means encouraging.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I completely disagree that we "need to see Thorin's funeral" in the TE. We need to see Thorin's dying words to Bilbo in the TE, and his recognition that "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world" (though I doubt they will phrase it exactly like that, which will cause more OTT angst). Anything else is superfluous, and probably would be better off in the EE. I'm perfectly fine with a tighter theatrical edition, so long as the essentials are covered. Of course, my essentials may not be the same as anyone else's.

But then, you are the one who thought that Theodred's funeral was the best part of the LOTR films, where as I think it is fine, but not very important.

[Elentári]

Frodo284 has posted a full description of the Dol Gudur sequence...

For all of those who asked, here is a detailed description of the scene in play - - - - Highlight the text below, but be warned of heavy spoilers!

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We first see Radagast muttering spells and Gandalf doing the same (a wizards telekinetic ability to speak to one another) A dark armored orc figure is throwing him around in the cage. We see a female hand appear on a gate, which we see her ring as she walks through.

Galadriel walks through Dol Goldur towards the clings and bangs of Gandalf being tossed around. She approaches the orc and takes him down with a flick of her hand.

She picks up Gandalf and carries him down the stairs. We hear the black speech reciting the 3 rings, 7 rings, and then she completes the dialogue w/ "9 for mortal men doomed to die".

The ghosts of the 9 appear around her while she holds Gandalf, she is surrounded. A nice organ tune of Mordor plays and she collapses w/ Gandalf to the ground and they taunt her. She says she is not alone then Elrond approaches as well as Saruman.

The 9 approach Saruman and Elrond and begin to fight them. They both of course kick their asses in a great short fight sequence by sword and staff. Galadriel kisses Gandalf and asks him to come back, in which he breathes life again. He warns her of Sauron being there.

Radagast appears and whisks Gandalf away to safety. Gandalf asks Galadriel to come with him and she stays and collapses to the ground. Elrond and Saruman finish the 9 off.

A moment of silence then the walls explode to reveal Sauron (in a ghostly man form) and the 9. He speaks in the black speech warning that the age of orc has come and a power will rise in the east. Galadriel rises in frame in her evil powerful looking self and hand flicks the 9 away. Sauron turns into the great eye but yet still a shadow of his armored self. Galadriel tells him he has no power here. Holding her vessel of light and driving him back during a VFX montage of flashing from Man to Eye. He is driven away by her then she collapses.

Gandalf and Radagast see from a distance the it is over.

Galadriel says the spirit of Sauron endures, he will flee into the east.

Elrond says Gondor should be warned.

Saruman says no, Galadriel needs looking after, to take he to Lothlórien.

Elrond insists he must be destroyed but Saruman declares without the ring of power, he can never hold power in Middle-Earth again. "Go now, Leave Sauron to me"

Radagast stops elsewhere and drops Gandalf off and says I need to head to Erabor to warn them of the coming war

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That's it!!!

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Without even looking, I can just imagine the angst. I on the other hand, am quite pleased.

ETA: In yet another example showing that I don't know what I am talking about, initial reactions mostly appear to be positive.

[Primula Baggins]

I'll have to see it for myself, but

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Galadriel sure seems to be falling down a lot.

[Elentári]

Are we to believe that the Nine are weaker as well as Sauron, at this moment in time? I guess their strength would be linked to their Masters, no? That must be why Galadriel is able to dispatch them with a flick of her hand whilst Gandalf battled all night with them on Weathertop...

[Dave_LF]

Probably, but it also sounds like she was having a rough time of it until Elrond and Saruman showed up. Perhaps she was only able to "flick them away" after the big fight because they were already down to like 20 HP.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

Are we to believe that the Nine are weaker as well as Sauron, at this moment in time? I guess their strength would be linked to their Masters, no?

I would think so. From "The Siege of Gondor":

"The Nazgûl came again, and as their Dark Lord now grew and put forth his strength, so their voices, which uttered only his will and his malice, were filled with evil and horror."

[kzer_za]

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Agreed - a really good move on PJ's part to leave Dol Guldur open-ended. Though I get the feeling critics won't like it. I wonder if it'll stay that way for the EE though?

EDIT: I could do without "the age of orc has come", though. Sounds like something from some second-rate fantasy video game.

[Elentári]

Hidden text.

EDIT: I could do without "the age of orc has come", though. Sounds like something from some second-rate fantasy video game.

Or from RotK?

Gothmog: "The age of Men is over. The time of the Orc has come."

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I don't think that we can assume that that is anything approaching a direct quote, even though I am 99% confident that these spoilers are real and not trollish.

[Passdagas the Brown]

I completely disagree that we "need to see Thorin's funeral" in the TE. We need to see Thorin's dying words to Bilbo in the TE, and his recognition that "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world" (though I doubt they will phrase it exactly like that, which will cause more OTT angst). Anything else is superfluous, and probably would be better off in the EE. I'm perfectly fine with a tighter theatrical edition, so long as the essentials are covered. Of course, my essentials may not be the same as anyone else's.

But then, you are the one who thought that Theodred's funeral was the best part of the LOTR films, where as I think it is fine, but not very important.

It's not about what's necessary, IMO. It's about what has the potential to capture the essence of Tolkien. And the melancholy (and beauty) of a funeral inside a mountain kingdom sounds like it would meet that challenge better than huge moles, a goofy Dain, or Mario Bard on a cart. But I suppose we have different definitions of "superfluous," as you suggest.

[Passdagas the Brown]

I think the Dol Guldur stuff sounds just fine. Not sure what about it would cause much hand-wringing.

I am deeply discouraged, though, by the perception that the film feels rushed, as most people's vision of a well-paced film is a rushed pace for me! It's especially discouraging to hear (and see) evidence of a lot of superfluous action being in the film, while then hearing that the funeral for the film's second-most important character has been cut. It's likely that this "tighter" cut sacrifices character and atmosphere for action, and I wish the calculus was more balanced. But I suppose waiting a year for the EE is not too much to ask...

Was really hoping for glowing reviews this time, even though that wasn't likely.

I know V will be pleased to see that I am in my usual pessimistic mode, but I really did want to believe for this last film! It's the last of ME we'll see on the big screen for a very long while.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

There still might be glowing reviews. Certainly one person's mostly positive but not gushing opinion of an unfinished cut is not enough to go on. And while I'm sure there will be a lot of action, I'm still strongly anticipating a good amount of character and atmosphere with an emphasis on tense relationships. Indeed, I'm going to abandon my previous tactic of trying to lower your expectations and say that this time you should anticipate a good film. A good Jackson film, not a good PtB film, but one that ultimately you will be able to appreciate.

I honestly believe that!

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Sent from my LG G3 using tapatalk

[Passdagas the Brown]

Thanks! I actually am trying to take a more positive approach this time, but it's going to be hard to maintain that.

Has anyone asked this guy if the ravens are in, by the way? I'm willing to forgive some additions and omissions if they include them, talking or not.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I don't think anyone has asked that, and he seems to have disappeared.

Edited to add: on the one hand, it would be odd for them to be omitted altogether, given the previous references to them, on the other hand, for some reason I am doubtful.