Forcing Sauron's Hand
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Forcing Sauron's Hand
On various sites, a number of people have complained that Gandalf goes overboard in trying to prove that Sauron is in Dol Guldur, given how obvious it is that it's him.
Yet this seems to miss Gandalf's statement to Radagast about "forcing Sauron's hand."
As I understood it, Gandalf was trying to accomplish a few things:
1. Expose Sauron, and prove it was him beyond a reasonable doubt
2. Force Sauron to act first, and thus give the White Council a casus belli
3. In so doing, force Saruman's hand, who is the leader and main skeptic in the White Council
4. Force Sauron to act before he had gathered his full strength
Is this clear to anyone else, or is it just me?
Yet this seems to miss Gandalf's statement to Radagast about "forcing Sauron's hand."
As I understood it, Gandalf was trying to accomplish a few things:
1. Expose Sauron, and prove it was him beyond a reasonable doubt
2. Force Sauron to act first, and thus give the White Council a casus belli
3. In so doing, force Saruman's hand, who is the leader and main skeptic in the White Council
4. Force Sauron to act before he had gathered his full strength
Is this clear to anyone else, or is it just me?
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Absolutely. "It is undoubtedly a trap." And telling Radagast not to follow him under any circumstances. He was essentially knowingly sacrificing himself in order to get the White Council to act. He knew that he was no match for Sauron (though he did put up an admirable fight).
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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Doesn't Gandalf also say to Radagast "I need you to take a message to Lady Galadriel. Tell her, we must force his hand."Voronwë the Faithful wrote:Absolutely. "It is undoubtedly a trap." And telling Radagast not to follow him under any circumstances. He was essentially knowingly sacrificing himself in order to get the White Council to act. He knew that he was no match for Sauron (though he did put up an admirable fight).
To which Radagast replies: "What do you mean?"
Followed by Gandalf's: "I'm going in alone."
Clearly, Gandalf was implying that they needed to "force Saruman's hand." And by exposing Sauron through lifting the spell of concealment, he leaves Saruman no choice.
Was this just presented in a confusing way? I'm having trouble understanding why so many fans had no idea what Gandalf was doing...
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Well, there is so much going on in the film, I could see how people would get a little lost.
But it was pretty clear to me.
But it was pretty clear to me.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
My biggest confusion is what that weird place where Gandalf climbs those mountain steps, what that place was and why he went there and what he apparently found and why whatever he found made him go to Dol Guldur. I didn't follow any of that
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That was the tomb of the WitchKing that they discussed in the White Council scene, where the Morgul blade was buried with him.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
So the Morgul blade that Radagast found in Dol Goldor in AUJ was known to have originated in that tomb? Did they say how they knew that or is it assumed that the blade is this is just a generally known artifact by the Council? And I still don't get why he decided to go to the tomb? Or what he found there?
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Yes, they talked about it at length during the White Council scene in the first film. Of course, if one hadn't seen that film (or didn't like and thus didn't pay attention ), one would be confused.
"Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world."
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So where did the Orc get a morgul arrow to shoot Killi with?
Edited to unedited an autocorrect.
Edited to unedited an autocorrect.
Last edited by narya on Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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And of course, it was meant to occur in AUJ , somewhere between the Dwarves leaving Rivendell and Gandalf arriving in Goblin Town to rescue them.Voronwë the Faithful wrote:Yes, they talked about it at length during the White Council scene in the first film. Of course, if one hadn't seen that film (or didn't like and thus didn't pay attention ), one would be confused.
No wonder if some in the audience forgot all that by the time they viewed DoS...
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