I always assumed the palantír Aragorn used was Saruman's, but is it possible the above is correct?As Jackson notes, when cuts are made, the secondary characters are the first to go, so there is a new scene of Aragorn finding the palantír in Denethor's robes.
A question on RotK EE
A question on RotK EE
I was doing a little Christmas shopping and couldn't help glancing at some of the reviews for the LotR Movies. This nugget stood out for me:
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I haven't watched the films in quite a while, but I don't remember a scene like that. As I recall, Gandalf brings Saruman's palantír to Minas Tirith, just as in the book, and I don't remember having any reason to think it was not Saruman's stone that Aragorn used.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
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Interesting . . . as that would mean another major move from the book. In the book the stone is the one from Orthanc, but is PJ saying that Aragorn found the Minis Tirith stone in the robe of Denethor . . . ? Hmm . . . . I like the notion that Prim stated that I always believed he used the Orthanc stone.
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J.R.R. Tolkien in his 6 October 1940 letter to his son Michael Tolkien.
2. We have many ways using technology to be in touch, yet the larger question is are we really connected or are we simply more in touch? There is a difference.
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That scene is not found in my EE of ROTK. And this is the very first I have ever heard anything like this.
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SF, the scene is there, we have just always assumed its the Orthanc stone (and personally I still believe thats the case). The argument being made is that it may have actually been the palantír of Minas Tirith he used.
Well, I just checked, and I can see his mistake. It's certainly the Orthanc stone thats used, because its unwrapped from the sackcloth, not "robes". However, its easy to see how the reviewer made the assumption he did. In the scene titled "Aragorn masters the palantír", he approaches the Stewards throne, then unwraps the palantír, which does make it look like he is discovering the palantír there, but as I said, its obviously wrapped in sackcloth.
Still, wouldn't that have been a nice touch...
Well, I just checked, and I can see his mistake. It's certainly the Orthanc stone thats used, because its unwrapped from the sackcloth, not "robes". However, its easy to see how the reviewer made the assumption he did. In the scene titled "Aragorn masters the palantír", he approaches the Stewards throne, then unwraps the palantír, which does make it look like he is discovering the palantír there, but as I said, its obviously wrapped in sackcloth.
Still, wouldn't that have been a nice touch...
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There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers
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Silly; Denethor kept the Minas Tirith seeing stone well away from any place another person could have found it (remember the scuttlebut about lights in the Steward's tower, when the Lord was supposedly mind-grappling with the enemy?). Unless one assumes that Aragorn snuck around prying into Denethor's private domain - a very ignoble and undignified and uncharacteristic thing to do - it is impossible and a silly inference.
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Well, I have been enjoying the actor's performance in the new Fox X-Filesish TV show Fringe very, very much indeed. A crazy dad again, but charmingly crazy as well as being an insightful scientist. And a less mopey son.
I guess I should go start a thread in the Cottage about that. Maybe next week.
I guess I should go start a thread in the Cottage about that. Maybe next week.
“There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King
I agree Teremia, I think anything that suggests Denethor's use of a palantír would be an addition and I could happily live with Aragorn using his, rather than the Orthanc stone if it gave extra depth to Movie Denethor. Without the influence of the unmentioned palantír (apart from that one obscure reference to flickering lights in the tower) he comes across as just a simple nutter.
And Prim, yeah, I really like Noble in Fringe.
And Prim, yeah, I really like Noble in Fringe.
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Al said:
I guess the reason PJ didn't use this approach is because he felt the audience would be confused by more than one stone.
I quite agree. Denethor's death scene in RotK was one of the things that made me maddest! By simply keeping to the book for that one scene, and having Denethor jump onto the pyre and reveal that he also had a palantír, would have increased the understanding and the sympathy of the audience. I would love to have heard Gandalf say about the stone being of no further use because it would now only ever show a pair of withered hands.I think anything that suggests Denethor's use of a palantír would be an addition and I could happily live with Aragorn using his, rather than the Orthanc stone if it gave extra depth to Movie Denethor. Without the influence of the unmentioned palantír (apart from that one obscure reference to flickering lights in the tower) he comes across as just a simple nutter.
I guess the reason PJ didn't use this approach is because he felt the audience would be confused by more than one stone.
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So why not reveal the second palantír and have Gandalf explain "He was swayed to doubt and evil by Sauron, just as Saruman was, because Sauron only revealed dark thoughts through the palantír." .. or some such? He then could say (canon or not) that now all the palantirs were accounted for. That would be enough ties to satisfy the audience, I think.
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I think that PJ was seduced by his own "inspiration" for the visual of flaming Denethor falling to his death into the battle. It is a great visual, but it doesn't even come close to making up for the illogic of the scene, both in terms of being unrealistic, and in being unfaithful to both the letter and the spirit of Tolkien's work. Definitely a place where Jackson led himself astray.
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