"Inclusive language" and gender in religion

[MithLuin]

Ah, ax, but I know there are people who are smarter than me. And holier too, while we're at it. I have no problem defering to them . It's not an authority thing so much as a deference thing. Authority unearned or inappropriately bestowed is easy to chafe under.


Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost, but now am found, was blind, but now I see.

"a wretch like" is sometimes replaced with "and strengthened" or "and rescued" or "and set [me] free"


It is not a gender issue - it's just that some people don't like referring to themselves as "wretches" . So, it was changed to make people comfortable, much the way gender-specific language is changed because it makes (some) people feel uncomfortable.

Other hymns have been altered (mildly) for similar reasons.

"How Great Thou Art" can make reference to "all the worlds thy hand hath made" or "all the works thy hand hath made."

[axordil]

I generally defer to people who are experts in their fields, but some people have an alarming habit of mistaking their expertise in their own relationship with their God for expertise in my relationship with mine.

The changes to How Great Thou Art are...interesting.

[MithLuin]

Hahaha, true enough. Spirituality is so intensely personal. I just figure that there are some things that are true, or better, no matter how you look at them.

Meaning...hmmm. If I want to know about mysticism, I can either rely on my own experience of God, or I can read what St. John of the Cross (or St. Teresa of Avila) had to say about it. I cannot understand a word of what Juan de la Cruz was talking about, but I know that he is speaking about what he knows. That is authority I can respect.

I have more trouble with the scholastic theologians. Sometimes I wonder if they believe anything at all . The Church Fathers come across as more...authentic, usually.

Some hymnals note alternative lyrics as footnotes, so you can compare.

"How Great Thou Art" was originally written in Swedish:

"O STORE GUD"

O store Gud, när jag den värld beskådar,
Som du har skapat med ditt allmaktsord,
Hur där din visdom leder livets trådar,
Och alla väsen mättas vid ditt bord.

Då brister själen ut i lovsångsljud:
O store Gud! O store Gud!
Då brister själen ut i lovsångsljud:
O store Gud! O store Gud!

När sommarvinden susar över fälten,
När blommor dofta invid källans rand,
När trastar drilla i de gröna tälten,
Vid furuskogens tysta, dunkla rand;

Då brister själen ut i lovsångsljud:
O store Gud! O store Gud!
Då brister själen ut i lovsångsljud:
O store Gud! O store Gud!

När jag i bibeln skådar alla under,
Som Herren gjort se'n förste Adams tid,
Hur nådefull Han varit alla stunder,
Och hjälpt sitt folk ur livets synd och strid;

Då brister själen ut i lovsångsljud:
O store Gud! O store Gud!
Då brister själen ut i lovsångsljud:
O store Gud! O store Gud!

När slutligt alla tidens höljen falla,
Uti åskådning byter sig min tro,
Och evighetens klara klockor kalla,
Min frälsta ande till dess sabbatsro;

Då brister själen ut i lovsångsljud:
Tack store Gud! Tack store Gud!
Då brister själen ut i lovsångsljud:
Tack store Gud! Tack store Gud!

One English translation is as follows:

O Lord my God! when I in awesome wonder
Consider all the worlds Thy hands have made,
I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder,
Thy power throughout the universe displayed:

Then sings my soul, my Savior God, to Thee:
How great Thou art, how great Thou art!
Then sings my soul! my Savior God, to Thee:
How great Thou art, how great Thou art!

When through the woods and forest glades I wander
And hear the birds sing sweetly in the trees;
When I look down from lofty mountain grandeur
And hear the brook and feel the gentle breeze:

Then sings my soul, my Savior God, to Thee:
How great Thou art, how great Thou art!
Then sings my soul! my Savior God, to Thee:
How great Thou art, how great Thou art!

And when I think that God, His Son not sparing,
Sent Him to die, I scarce can take it in;
That on the cross, my burden gladly bearing,
He bled and died to take away my sin:

Then sings my soul, my Savior God, to Thee:
How great Thou art, how great Thou art!
Then sings my soul! my Savior God, to Thee:
How great Thou art, how great Thou art!

When Christ shall come with shout of acclamation
And take me home, what joy shall fill my heart!
Then I shall bow in humble adoration,
And there proclaim, my God, how great Thou art!

Then sings my soul, my Savior God, to Thee:
How great Thou art, how great Thou art!
Then sings my soul! my Savior God, to Thee:
How great Thou art, how great Thou art!

The other (original?) translation is by Stuart Hine:

O Lord my God,
When I in awesome wonder
Consider all
The works Thy Hand hath made,
I see the stars,
I hear the mighty thunder,
Thy pow'r throughout
The universe displayed;
Refrain:
|: Then sings my soul,
My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art!
How great Thou art! : |

2. When through the woods
And forest glades I wander
I hear the birds
Sing sweetly in the trees;
When I look down
From lofty mountain grandeur
And hear the brook
And feel the gentle breeze;
Refrain:

3. But when I think
That God, his Son not sparing,
Sent Him to die,
I scarce can take it in,
That on the cross
My burden gladly bearing
He bled and died
To take away my sin;
Refrain:

4. When Christ shall come,
With shouts of acclamation,
And take me home,
What joy shall fill my heart!
Then I shall bow
In humble adoration
And there proclaim,
"My God, how great Thou art!"
Refrain:

And in German, it's:

1. Du großer Gott,
Wenn ich die Welt betrachte,
Die du geschaffen
Durch dein Allmachtswort,
Wenn ich auf alle
Jene Wesen achte,
Die du regierst
Und nährest fort und fort.

Refrain:
|: Dann jauchzt mein Herz
Dir, großer Herrscher, zu:
Wie groß bist du,
Wie groß bist du! : |

2. Blick ich empor
Zu jenen lichten Welten
Und seh der Sterne
Unzählbare Schar,
Wie Sonn und Mond
Im lichten Äther zelten,
Gleich gold'nen Schiffen
Hehr und wunderbar.
Refrain:

Wenn mir der Herr
In seinem Wort begegnet,
Wenn ich die großen
Gnadentaten seh,
Wie er das Volk
Des Eigentums gesegnet,
Wie ers geliebt,
Begnadigt je und je:
Refrain:

Und seh ich Jesum
Auf der Erde wandeln
In Knechtsgestalt
Voll Lieb und großer Huld,
Wenn ich im Geiste
Seh sein göttlich Handeln,
Am Kreuz bezahlen
Vieler Sünder Schuld.
Refrain:

8. Wenn schwerer Bürden
Last mich niederbeuget,
Wenn meine Seel
Betrübt ist bis zum Tod,
Und er in Lieb
Und Huld sich zu mir neiget,
Mich tröstet und
Errettet aus der Not.
Refrain:

Und wenn der Herr
Von hinnen mich gerufen,
Wenn ich von seinem
Glanz geblendet steh',
Anbetend niederfall
Zu seinen Stufen,
Den König dort
In seiner Schöne seh':
Refrain:

I don't even know what language this is - Japanese?:

Kagayaku hi wo aogu toki,
Tsuki hoshi nagamuru toki,
Ikazuchi nari-wataru toki,
Makoto no Mikami wo omo.

Chorus:
Waga tama, iza tataeyo!
Sei-naru Mikami wo,
Waga tama, iza tataeyo!
Sei-naru Mikami wo.


Mori nite tori no ne wo kiki,
Sobiyuru yama ni nobori,
Tani-ma no kiyoki nagare ni,
Makoto no Mikami wo omo.
Chorus: Mikami wa yo-bito wo ai-shi,
Hitori no Miko wo kudashi,
Yobito no sukui no tame ni,
Jujika ni kake-tamaeri.
Chorus:

Ame-tsuchi tsukurishi Kami wa,
Hito wo mo, tsukuri-kaete,
Tadashiku kiyoki tamashii,
Motsu mi to narashime-tamo.
Chorus:

Ma mo naku Shu Yesu wa kitari,
Warera wo mukae-tamawan,
Ikanaru yorokobi no hi zo,
Ikanaru sakae no hi zo?
Chorus:

So, in this case, it is an issue of translation, neither gender-bias nor blatant PC-ness. But an interesting variation, all the same.

Wikipedia

[vison]

Amazing Grace was written by a man who had been the captain of a slave ship; he was a slave trader. He called himself a "wretch" on purpose.

It is a beautiful song, but I confess if I go to one more funeral where it is sung, I am going to get up and scream. I was at a funeral yesterday where it was sung (very badly) by a soloist. I know for certain, since it was a relative's funeral, that the person who chose this song has no clue about it, beyond its popularity on such occasions. The other thing was, oddly enough, that the deceased was a bit of a wretch, maybe not of the slave trader calibre, but bad enough. Oh well . . . . .

While King Henry VIII is famous as a womanizer, in fact for a King of his era he was quite moderate in his womanizing. Mary Boleyn was indeed one of his few mistresses. I can't recall offhand if she did have a child by him, for sure, but I think not. He had one bastard son who died before he did. None of his children were very healthy, although Elizabeth lived a fairly long life. She probably never could have had children, though; her "female problems" are a matter of history. Mary Tudor never had a child, although god knows she wanted one badly enough. His one legitimate son, Edward, died as a boy King. The story always goes that Henry suffered from syphillis, but I don't know if historians still think so; it seems to me I read somewhere that he some other disease or condition.

Henry married his women, being much occupied with his conscience. He never intended to be a Protestant, either. He regarded himself as Pope of his own Catholic church. However, there were Protestants in his realm, including his last wife, Katharine Parr, who skated on mighty thin ice on the subject.

If we are to talk about changing lyrics, I still can't get over the version of the 23rd Psalm I posted a few months ago. What an atrocity. I'll have to dig it out.

[MithLuin]

John Newton

He also was a slave himself, apparently (only for 15 mo., though).

Yes, the whole point of the hymn is that grace can change people - from wretches to something amazingly better. Gollum into Frodo .

Snopes even has something to say about it.

[truehobbit]

Ah, ax, but I know there are people who are smarter than me. And holier too, while we're at it. I have no problem defering to them

Exactly - and in realising that lies wisdom.

it's just that some people don't like referring to themselves as "wretches" . So, it was changed to make people comfortable, much the way gender-specific language is changed because it makes (some) people feel uncomfortable.

Yikes, that's what I feared - so it's a PC issue.

How about this for improved lyrics:

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a slightly-less-perfect-person-than-they-could-be like me.
I once was temporarily-confused-as-to-my-whereabouts, but now I'm found,
was visually-disadvantaged, but now I see.



Btw, not five minutes after I'd closed this thread yesterday, I switched on the TV and there was a news report about a newly published Bible translation, that radically "included" womankind in the language. Thus, they not only consistently referred to God as "father and mother", they even speak of "shepherds and shepherdesses" and "apostles and apostle-esses" (there's probably no working English form for this).

[JewelSong]

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a slightly-less-perfect-person-than-they-could-be like me.
I once was temporarily-confused-as-to-my-whereabouts, but now I'm found,
was visually-disadvantaged, but now I see.

I have seen "modernized" lyrics that are only slightly less ridiculous.

Makes singing the old favorites a bit of an adventure, doesn't it?

[axordil]

Meaning...hmmm. If I want to know about mysticism, I can either rely on my own experience of God, or I can read what St. John of the Cross (or St. Teresa of Avila) had to say about it. I cannot understand a word of what Juan de la Cruz was talking about, but I know that he is speaking about what he knows. That is authority I can respect.

I can respect the individual spiritual, even mystic, experience. And there are commonalities that I can perceive--but there are also fundamental differences between different personality types, and of course between individual circumstances. What we can learn most from a Juan de la Cruz is what it was like to be Juan de la Cruz...which is an important thing, in that any understanding we can gain of each other (and perhaps especially those who have looked inside themselves deeper and longer than is usual) is as important as knowledge can get. But it's not going to be my answer, or your answer, or anyone's answer in toto. Except Juan dlC's of course.

One law for the lion and the lamb, as Blake said, is oppression.

[Frelga]

Anyway lions can't graze. The teeth are all wrong and the stomach made different. A grazing lion is not a lion.

Once again I agree with Ax - to a point. I think, if we start in the direction of God-is-love and set out to find God, there is no way to NOT find God. But it's more fun looking in company of those looking in the same approximate direction.

[axordil]

Frelga--

Being part of a spiritual community is certainly preferable to going it alone. For people like me the trick is finding others who are on the iconoclastic side, but not so much that "community" ceases to have meaning. Unitarianism always kind of teeters on that edge...but so do I, so that's ok.

[Frelga]

Ax, yes, if I were Christian, I'd probably be Unitarian.

[MithLuin]

Except that Juan de la Cruz (that just Spanish for St. John of the Cross, in case I'm being confusing to anyone) was, among other things, a spiritual director . So it was his job to understand how these things would impact those who came to him, not just him personally. There is a universality to what he says.

I am not suggesting that you'd get anything out of reading him. Just...that he did know what he was going on about, so most people could probably find something to respect, there. But I certainly know priests who will tell people not to read him, because he really is so incredibly out in left field. Most of us don't have the dilemma of what to do when we levitate while praying . Most people never get past the courtyard of St. Teresa's Interior Castle. But I found some incredible stuff while reading about the first three levels....maybe it will come in handy some day.

[axordil]

I've read them both, actually. The idea of the Dark Night of the Soul is an essential concept for understanding a lot of poetry written since, and one can't help but look at Teresa if one is studying the writing of medieval European women.

There's no question that both have some insights that are generally applicable (though Teresa's take rather more applying ), and others that are more specific to the time and place, and others that are simply personal and unique. Which is all as it should be.

[MithLuin]

Oh, okay, yes, I agree with that. I wasn't suggesting that John's metaphor for light would work for anybody modern (well, the physics is all off, for starters.... ), and the way he read passages of the Bible reflects his culture. There is stuff there that is not universally applicable.

But the stuff that is...well, that makes them both Authorities, doesn't it? Not in the sense that anyone has to listen to them, but just that they, well....are more likely to be right than I am . [And yes, I agree that Teresa's writings are much more practical and accessable!!]

[axordil]

but just that they, well....are more likely to be right than I am

They are certainly more likely to be right for themselves, because they have spent a lot of time in their own interior spiritual lives. They COULD be right for others...or they could be spectacularly wrong.

The most obvious example, and this is not meant to trivialize, is one of professional critics. They have a lot of experience watching movies or plays, eating toney food, reading books. They sometimes have professional training in related fields. But they also have personal tastes, often strong ones, that shape how they shape opinion. And thus, while they can usually be trusted to spot a really poorly done offering or a well-made one (although not even that is 100%), that doesn't mean they will recommend things that work for everyone.

Maybe I don't like chick flicks. Maybe you don't like metafiction. Maybe both of us are allergic to peanuts and will swell up and die if we eat even the most luscious dish of Pad Thai.

Thus, while I recognize the importance of spiritual and mystical thinkers as a reference, I know I can't rely on it uncritically, even from people whose work normally resonates with me.

[WampusCat]

Thus, while I recognize the importance of spiritual and mystical thinkers as a reference, I know I can't rely on it uncritically, even from people whose work normally resonates with me.

As someone who offers spiritual direction and has studied the works of many others (including Teresa and John of the Cross), I can only say: Yes. That's absolutely right.

Spiritual experience/mysticism is personal. What is encountered is universal, but the shape/feel/path of the experience is as varied as human beings are varied.

[axordil]

What is encountered is universal, but the shape/feel/path of the experience is as varied as human beings are varied.

An excellent way of putting it.

All worthwhile spiritual knowledge is revealed, not empirical. The problem is that unlike empirical knowledge, which can be usefully shared, revealed knowledge is at once universal and internal, and thus is less one-size-fits-all than it is tailored to fit.