Female religious leaders

[Crucifer]

Well, if a woman feels called, and we believe that people are called by the Holy Spirit, then yes, I believe women are called. Certainly they're called to become Anglican, Lutheran, etc. etc. priests. Why not Catholic?

Is it at all a teensy weensy bit possible that the church doesn't listen to the Holy Spirit? I mean, surely, if they did, every pope would be elected on the very first vote.

[Voronwë the Faithful]

I'd actually like to hear your thoughts about the topic and hope you're not choosing to remain silent because of anything I said.

Certainly not, Lali. Maybe I'll start a new thread at some point in the future.

[Primula Baggins]

Crucifer, we've all got different views on this, certainly, but I know you can express your opinion without using a "baiting" tone.

[Lalaith]

I tend to side with you on this one, MithLuin.

It is the same as in a Baptist church or many other non-Catholic churches--women are not allowed to be the priest or pastor. If I felt a calling to either, I would either find a way to follow that calling in a way that was appropriate for my particular denomination, or I would join a church that did allow for it.

I have a hard time shaking the idea that women shouldn't be pastors because that is the way I was raised. There are also those fun passages by Paul where he states that women should remain silent in the church and not have authority over men, etc. (Perhaps someone would tackle those and explain how other denominations have dealt away with those verses?)

What I am saying that is starting to rankle with me is the fact that I do not feel respected by the men who are currently leading our church. And I suspect (but admit that I do not know for certain) that I would not be permitted to serve as a music minister, if I felt so led. I can't serve as a deacon, even though there were most definitely female deacons in the Bible. I wouldn't be hired as a youth pastor, though I might squeak by as a children's minister.

So I'm sort of uncertain how I feel about it all, truthfully. I think the Catholic Church is farther along down this path of equality than your typical Baptist church.

Just throwing out thoughts here. Sorry if they're not very consistent or cogent.


Lali

[Primula Baggins]

I think . . . how do I put this . . . that not allowing women an equal role in the church can lay the groundwork for disrespect.

As for Paul . . . well, he also had advice for slaves to submit to their masters. He was of his time and (I seriously think) more than a bit misogynistic. He didn't think anyone really ought to have sex, though it was better to get married *heavy sigh* than go to Hell.

There is a lot that is wonderful and deeply wise in Paul, but there is a lot that almost no churches observe any more. Women don't have to cover their heads in any church I know of, outside the Amish/Mennonite traditions, and yet that's spelled out pretty clearly in Paul. Women do speak in church, and Paul thought that should be forbidden. Paul urged that people share everything they own with their fellow church members; that's not happening any more. The fact is, Paul is read selectively even by people who consider every word of the Bible to be the inerrant word of God. Yet Paul's rules on women (and gays) are still picked out to be enforced.

I guess it puzzles me, because I've lived all my life in a different tradition, and I don't think we are any farther from God because women can serve equally.

[Lalaith]

Thought-provoking.

(I do know of several denominations that still require women to wear headcoverings besides Amish and Mennonite. German Baptists, some Church of the Brethren, and various other small groups, including home church people wear headcoverings. I should take an undercover videocamera to a homeschool convention! You would see all kinds of interesting things!)

As I said, I know I am working from the framework of my upbringing, and it's hard to get beyond that sometimes.

I have gone to several services where a woman was the minister. (What do Episcopalians call women priests?) I thought it was very cool, actually.

MithLuin, do you remember a very long time ago that we had a conversation about women serving as bishops relating to Thomas Cahill's book How the Irish Saved Civilization. Beleg was the other person I mainly remember in that thread on TORC. I should see if I can find that....


Lali

[Frelga]

My congregation just hired its new Rabbi Educator. A woman, as was the previous Rabbi.

[Primula Baggins]

That's cool Frelga!

Lali, women who are priests are called priests, same as the men—it's the role, not the body inside it, that determines the name. (In my church they're all called pastors.) And I agree that having both sexes or either lead the service is very cool. There's nothing between me and God!

Mr. Prim came out of a church that was closely descended from Church of the Brethren, and the older women wore headcoverings, but not the younger ones of his mom's generation on down. He has a lot of respect for that church, which is one of the peace churches; but he is now happily Lutheran (he's allowed to believe in evolution! rather important to a Ph.D. biologist).

Though, when we were first married and had just joined a church in L.A., his mother came to visit and we had a hard time convincing her that the (male) pastor and (female) assistant pastor weren't also married.

(Tons of credit to his mother: though she knew my church was far less conservative than hers, what mattered to her dear generous soul was that he was going to church.)

[JewelSong]

There are also those fun passages by Paul where he states that women should remain silent in the church and not have authority over men, etc. (Perhaps someone would tackle those and explain how other denominations have dealt away with those verses?)

Easy. Paul was wrong. And he was trying to establish order where there was none. Most of the early Christians that had been Gentiles were a wild, undisciplined bunch. The Corinthians loved crazy parties and sex with everyone and their table lamp. Paul was trying to establish a structure.

As Prim said, Paul needs to be read in context and also with the knowledge that he was simply a man of his times.

What I am saying that is starting to rankle with me is the fact that I do not feel respected by the men who are currently leading our church. And I suspect (but admit that I do not know for certain) that I would not be permitted to serve as a music minister, if I felt so led. I can't serve as a deacon, even though there were most definitely female deacons in the Bible. I wouldn't be hired as a youth pastor, though I might squeak by as a children's minister.

Wow. That really is restrictive, Lali. Even for Baptists.

As I said, I know I am working from the framework of my upbringing, and it's hard to get beyond that sometimes.

Very hard. And admirable that you are doing it. A spiritual journey is just that - a journey. We need to continually move, grow, question and think. If we stand still, I think we are missing many things God has to offer us.

[Crucifer]

I'm sorry Prim, and Mith. The intention was never to bait, or be sarcastic or anything. I truly am sorry if it came across that way.

This is just a topic that is a little sore with me at the moment. Our last dean brought a (Lutheran) female deans vicar over from Sweden when his original one moved one to become a rector.

Then our Dean got made Bishop (as was going to happen. Amazing man)

The new Dean doesn't even want women serving as eucharistic assistants, and drove the Deans vicar away. And her Husband. And her daughter. And we all miss them very very much, because one man decided he wanted to catholic in an Anglican church. The congregation is slowly but surely evaporating, as people who were raised in that church find that they cant cope with the way things are being done, i.e. women organise everything, and the Dean just clicks his fingers and expects everyone to obey.

So, once again, apologies.

[WampusCat]

That's sad, crucifer. Sometimes church leaders do far more harm to the church than good. And then they wonder why people are leaving...

Lali, my parents' large Baptist church last year called a woman as their senior pastor, and she has won over even those who were skeptical at first.

[axordil]

my parents' large Baptist church last year called a woman as their senior pastor

*channels Emo Phillips*

Southern Baptist Convention of 1848 or Southern Baptist Convention of 1856?

[Crucifer]

And, something I somehow managed to forget...
She also had to leave behind the grave of her son, who was born 3 months early, and survived for two months. It's the one time I've seen the congregation most united behind one couple. We became, for two months (and a while afterwards) a family for her. And throughout all of that, she kept up her priestly duties, ministering to the sick, afternoon eucharist every day etc.

The thing about her is, she is more qualified to offer spiritual guidance to mothers, both of children alive and deceased, than any male priest will ever be.

She is also one of the best priests, anglican or catholic, that I've ever come across.

[Pearly Di]

Crucifer, I am sorry to hear that. It sounds like the people in your church have not been listened to and that things have been 'imposed' from the top down. Not a good situation.

Lali, this one is for you. I wanted to add my thoughts to this excellent thread.

When it comes to women leaders in church, my vicar is an interesting case in point. He doesn't actually believe it is scriptural to ordain women to the priesthood or to be bishops because of the 'headship' principle ... however, he is very affirmative of women taking an upfront role in any other capacity. He would have no problem with you being a deacon or a music minister, Lali, and it was he who approached me, ten years ago, to ask me if I would consider becoming a Reader. In Church of England jargon, that basically means a 'lay minister' ... so I preach and lead worship on a regular basis ... under the authority of my vicar, of course.

I have no desire to be ordained. Nada. Zip. You must be kidding. Nuh-uh. Seriously, I know that is not God's calling. And one must be called.

I cite my vicar's theological position because it shows there is a variety of nuances on this issue even amongst so-called ‘conservative evangelicals’. Not all theological conservatives can be squeezed neatly into a box. He is a man of strong conviction but he will work graciously with other Christians who do not share his POV on every single issue. (Whereas I do know of some professing evangelicals who would not associate with Catholics, for example. ) He certainly works alongside local women vicars and would not take a snotty attitude towards them. He’s a gracious and godly man.

My own position is that I have no problem with women in leadership positions in the church, period. The ‘difficult’ passages in Paul have to be seen in context, I agree with Jewel there (and she is right about the Corinthian Christians wanting to have sex with everything including their table lamps. )

And I do take the words of Paul as Holy Scripture, so I don’t say that lightly. But I distill it all down to a simple principle: either men and women are equal in the Kingdom of God or they are not. How different churches work this out … may differ.

And, yep, I’m quite old-fashioned in a way because I do see men and women as basically different -- but totally equal. (Of course I am not oblivious to the fact that 'masculine' and 'feminine' traits are spread between the sexes).

But I am a very feminine person and I’ve never had the slightest inclination to ever be a bloke. I don’t envy men or desire to be like them. I am aware of the advantages in power that societies have traditionally afforded men and the various ways in which women have been suffocated and stifled … and I think that affects their relationships with men, of course.

On a final note, I grew up in a church that required me to cover my head with a headscarf during worship. I rebelled against this rule when I was 16.

P.S. And this is for Frelga. I once attended a Reformed Synagogue, along with other Christians who were doing a training course (one of our course assignments was to attend other places of worship completely different from our own. ) It happened to be a bar-mitzvah, and the leader of the congregation was a lady Rabbi. Cool.

[Primula Baggins]

As I remember there was a woman rabbi in my home town before there was ever a woman pastor. I remember thinking how much sense it made (I was a young teen).

[solicitr]

In the Lutheran church we have only two sacraments, communion and baptism—

Interestingly, baptism is one of the two sacraments that by Vatican rules may be performed by a deacon.* And I can find no valid theological reason why women may not be deacons (certainly they were from Apostolic times up until about the seventh century).


*the other is matrimony, though technically the deacon or priest is merely the Church's witness to the sacrament, which is actually performed by the couple themseves.

[Primula Baggins]

Can't baptism be performed by any Catholic in an emergency, such as when a baby is dying at birth? I've edited nursing texts that address that situation.

That's interesting that the Church is a witness to marriage, not the authority that performs it. In my own church any legal marriage is valid; the church's function is not essential, though most church members do marry in church.

[solicitr]

Yes, in an emergency any person (not necessarily a Catholic, or even a Christian!) can perform a baptism: but in nonexigent circumstances it's a priest or deacon.

[halplm]

Paul was very much a man of his times, and even if he weren't, all throughout history men and women have had rather well defined but different roles and responsabilities, that have of course, been reflected in how religions are formed and organized.

I am 100% certain myself, that God doesn't care a teeny tiny bit if you get your spiritual guidance from a man or a woman... but there are all kinds of reasons why God might have wanted or might still want Men to run churches. Off the top of my head it could be as simple as the fact that through most of our history, even today (as unfortunate and absurd as it is) men are respected more in positions of leadership... and if you're trying to entice people to learn about and convert to your religion, you want someone in the leadership role that commands the most respect.

Also, often the people that need religious help the most, are the ones that would have such misguided notions in their heads...

The key is, of course, to recognize when such reasonings no longer apply, and not be so bound by self imposed rules such that you restrict your church unnecessarily.

[Frelga]

That got me curious. How does it "work" if a non-Christian performs a baptism?